Sick of Americans Whining About Illegals

[Stunt]

This is something I've noticed throughout my stay here at ATPN; everyone complains about how illegals are ruining the economy and the american way of life.

This is absolute crap and people need to understand that illegals are not ruining your country but in fact helping it progress. If europe has taught us anything, its minimum wage and low population growth leads to economic stagnation.

One of the first things you learn in macroeconomics is that unemployment is proportional to minimum wage. Even though the US has a minimum wage, illegals fill that otherwise impossible scenario of having no minimum wage.

Another aspect to consider is the American population; predictions these days estimate the population will be over 450m by 2050, most of that growth coming from immigration and the higher birth rate of illegals and other immigrants. The sheer amount of growth needed to bring all these people to the standard of living inherent in the American Society itself will create much more growth than anyone can imagine.

The taxation issue is a moot point considering the red southern states have reduced the income tax component and the next generation of mexican-americans are registering to have access to the same services and opportunities as every other american citizen.

That's my take on the illegal situation in the US, I am willing to have a full on debate on this as people seem to be quite passionate about this subject. Hopefully people will start to understand that these people indeed are consumers as well, will help grow the economy and make the workforce larger.

 

[CaptnKirk]

It's just another 'Hot Button' issue to incite the fringe of a perceived political base.
It works on parallel with the broad brush painting as terrorism related.

There is a section of the population that always notices that the sky is falling.

 

[Steeplerot]

I 100% agree, I lived in CA for a decade or so and the mexican workers damn well pay taxes and get NO representation, it is obvious why people freak out so much.

Pure unadulterated fear that the white elite ruling class of america will not be in the majority, fear of change.

English is not the native language of north america, but rather the language of the white squatters who have abandoned their mother countries when the going got tough to rule this continent through the genocide of the natives.

Mexicans are half native americans, it is xenophobia and white arrogance to say this country should be english only and neighboring people have no right to migrate looking for work on their own continent.

I usually do not comment on this subject as I am amazed the lock-step tolerance of the racism of these scared white folks of someone just looking to make an honest days living.

It's is doubly bad when I see these so called "liberals" preaching xenophobic hate.

Makes me downright sick actually. The only good side I see out of this is the low birthrate of said former european squatters, hopefully the next skin tone is more tolerant.

 

[cwjerome]

The pragmatic approach may view it this way, but people with a more principled outlook will see it differently. Just because something might be a slight net gain on the economy doesn't equal that it should exist. The are always more factors that a reasonable person should look at.

We see it was a soveriegnty issue, and the fact that we SHOULD have control over our borders to see who and what crosses. It's a national security issue. It's a fairness issue. It's the idea that we have laws and they are for a reason and not to be flaunted.

Economically, it is a drain on some states like Arizona, where law enforcement, medical, education, and other factors prove costly since most pay very little for those services. Also, they are driving wages down in jobs that used to pay reasonably. So there are many economic drawbacks that counter the benefits.

What someone like is is arguing is that we need stronger border enforcement and better rules/laws concerning immigration. We should make immigration easier so that good, qualified people don't have to wait 4-8 years. We should have a guest-worker program to fill low-wage needs. And the big thing is we need strict border control so that these laws and programs can be effective.

The point is, our borders are a joke, and we're losing an opportunity to be safer and more prosperous. Reform would make things more lawful, principled, and economically beneficial.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
I 100% agree, I lived in CA for a decade or so and the mexican workers damn well pay taxes and get NO representation, it is obvious why people freak out so much.

Pure unadulterated fear that the white elite ruling class of america will not be in the majority, fear of change.

English is not the native language of north america, but rather the language of the white squatters who have abandoned their mother countries when the going got tough to rule this continent through the genocide of the natives.

Mexicans are half native americans, it is xenophobia and white arrogance to say this country should be english only and neighboring people have no right to migrate looking for work on their own continent.

I usually do not comment on this subject as I am amazed the lock-step tolerance of the racism of these scared white folks of someone just looking to make an honest days living.

It's is doubly bad when I see these so called "liberals" preaching xenophobic hate.

Makes me downright sick actually. The only good side I see out of this is the low birthrate of said former european squatters, hopefully the next skin tone is more tolerant.

With all the racism that you spout a times, it does not sound like you are very tolerant.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: cwjerome
The pragmatic approach may view it this way, but people with a more principled outlook will see it differently. Just because something might be a slight net gain on the economy doesn't equal that it should exist. The are always more factors that a reasonable person should look at.

We see it was a soveriegnty issue, and the fact that we SHOULD have control over our borders to see who and what crosses. It's a national security issue. It's a fairness issue. It's the idea that we have laws and they are for a reason and not to be flaunted.

Economically, it is a drain on some states like Arizona, where law enforcement, medical, education, and other factors prove costly since most pay very little for those services. Also, they are driving wages down in jobs that used to pay reasonably. So there are many economic drawbacks that counter the benefits.

What someone like is is arguing is that we need stronger border enforcement and better rules/laws concerning immigration. We should make immigration easier so that good, qualified people don't have to wait 4-8 years. We should have a guest-worker program to fill low-wage needs. And the big thing is we need strict border control so that these laws and programs can be effective.

The point is, our borders are a joke, and we're losing an opportunity to be safer and more prosperous. Reform would make things more lawful, principled, and economically beneficial.

Our borders are a joke becasue they are unnatural arbitrary lines of a racist ruling class afraid of being outbred by those they consider inferior second class citizens of a continent settled through violence and murder.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: Stunt
This is absolute crap and people need to understand that illegals are not ruining your country but in fact helping it progress. If europe has taught us anything, its minimum wage and low population growth leads to economic stagnation.

Could there be an alternate explanation? Such as too many elements of socialism in the economy? To hear you tell it, a nation could not possibly be both prosperous and self-sufficient. How do you explain Japan, which has one of the world's highest standards of living and almost no immigration?

One of the first things you learn in macroeconomics is that unemployment is proportional to minimum wage. Even though the US has a minimum wage, illegals fill that otherwise impossible scenario of having no minimum wage.

That is a red herring. The issue is not merely unemployment but also quality of life and standard of living. We could have lower unemployment if the minimum wage were abolished and if people were willing to work for $1/hour, but guess what--they'd still be poor.

Also, the illegals are taking many formerly middle class jobs, such as construction. Without illegals and with little immigration and with tarriffs and trade protectionism Americans would have to pay a <gasp> American free market price. My belief is that we're better off having higher prices and higher wages with lower unemployment, lower underemployment, lower population, and lower taxes (as a result of less need for government social welfare services).

Another aspect to consider is the American population; predictions these days estimate the population will be over 450m by 2050, most of that growth coming from immigration and the higher birth rate of illegals and other immigrants. The sheer amount of growth needed to bring all these people to the standard of living inherent in the American Society itself will create much more growth than anyone can imagine.

What kind of growth, and do the alleged benefits outweigh the negatives that you conveniently failed to mention? How do you deal with the increased costs of environmental strain and degradation resulting from an increased population? Where will all of these people live--noticed the price of real estate lately? (More people per fixed amount of arable and usable land means less land and fewer resources per person.)

Illegal immigration is really an economic externality (you learned about externalities in your Economics class, right?). Some people benefit and other people have to pay for it. Employers benefit by having lower labor costs and to a small extent consumers benefit with lower prices, but everyone ends up paying higher taxes to provide government-funded medical care and education, not to mention the costs of crimes committed by illegals and the costs of needing more police and prisons.

Your critical flaw is that you only consider the front-end gains and completely ignore the back-end costs.

That's my take on the illegal situation in the US, I am willing to have a full on debate on this as people seem to be quite passionate about this subject. Hopefully people will start to understand that these people indeed are consumers as well, will help grow the economy and make the workforce larger.

Why does the workforce need to become larger? We already have millions of Americans who are unemployed or severely underemployed. Shouldn't we focus on finding better ways to put those people's productive ability to work first?

It's like you're promoting an economic Ponzi scheme. In contrast, I think we'd be better off by isolating ourselves from the economic destruction caused by Global Labor Wage Arbitrage and runaway population growth and instead focus on improving the functioning of the nation's internal economy. With 300 million people the nation has more than enough people to have a good division of labor, so an increase in population will not necessarily be a benefit.

In your view, is there such a thing as too large of a population? Would you say that India and China could benefit from population growth?

The reason why so many Americans are complaining is because they are watching the destruction of their country and they cannot stand it. Do you want to see America merge its economy with the third world, with the expected results--an averaging out of the standard of living (which would bring Americans down to third world levels)? Do we really want to have a population of 500 million people? Don't you like open spaces?

This issue of population growth is not overblown, by the way. In the ten years between 1990 and 2000 the U.S. experienced the highest rate of population growth ever--32.7 million people, or more than an 12% increase. If the population continued to increase at 12% every ten years we'd end up with a population of 528 million people in 50 years. (Take 1.12 to the fifth power and multiply by 300 million.)

I wouldn't be surprised if, perhaps in our lifetimes, we get to witness some huge humanitarian catastrophes as a result of worldwide population explosion. Ever heard of a biologist named Malthus?

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper


With all the racism that you spout a times, it does not sound like you are very tolerant.

Why would I be tolerant of racists? It is everyones duty to rise above such small minded thinking and stamp it out.

Just beacause it is part of our culture now does not mean it is ok or should be ignored, this is how change happens, people question the status quo and work for better.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: cwjerome
The pragmatic approach may view it this way, but people with a more principled outlook will see it differently. Just because something might be a slight net gain on the economy doesn't equal that it should exist. The are always more factors that a reasonable person should look at.

No...there isn't any real economic gain. It's an illusion. Some people might enjoy a gain on the front-end, but overall the unheralded and purposely unpublicized total costs to society outweigh the gains.

For example, we receive cheaper fruit and vegetables while taxpayers foot the bill for education for illegals' children, health care, and any increased burdens on our criminal justice system. We pay for that in our taxes but it isn't itemized so we don't see the costs directly.

 

[cwjerome]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

Originally posted by: cwjerome
The pragmatic approach may view it this way, but people with a more principled outlook will see it differently. Just because something might be a slight net gain on the economy doesn't equal that it should exist. The are always more factors that a reasonable person should look at.

No...there isn't any real economic gain. It's an illusion. Some people might enjoy a gain on the front-end, but overall the unheralded and purposely unpublicized total costs to society outweigh the gains.

For example, we receive cheaper fruit and vegetables while taxpayers foot the bill for education for illegals' children, health care, and any increased burdens on our criminal justice system. We pay for that in our taxes but it isn't itemized so we don't see the costs directly.

Well, I would argue that:

a. It's a very slight gain
b. This slight gain is on the national level, since many states (like Az) are overall losers
c. This slight gain DOES NOT make illegal immigration worthwhile or legitimate
d. Reforming the system would actually increase the economic benefit (as well as have many other important benefits)
e. replying to anything steeplerot says in this thread is pointless... I hope people just ignore him 😉

 

[TNM93]

Illegal immigration is a concern for people who work in low skilled jobs since they depress the wages in those fields. There is also an argument that they raise the demand for public services at a much higher rate. In order to fund these services, more taxes have to be raised. There is also the issue of crime, etc. I'm not saying that all illegal immigrants commit crimes, I'm saying that the situation has occured more than once where I live, where, an illegal immigrant kills someone an then flees back to Mexico. The most disturbing example being an illegal who stabbed a coworker multiple times, while working in a kitchen at a restaurant. It took the US government years to get the guy.

I'm all for immigration. Although, only through legal means.

 

[Steeplerot]

OK, I am going to get a bit out there, but this is my take on current north america, see if you can follow along.

The founding fathers of this country tried a great experiment with democracy, sadly the country grew through genocide of natives and territorial grabs of neighboring countries, now the ruling white europeans are wealthy and having less children having made a good amount of wealth for themselves by dominating a good part of the continent.

With wealth comes apathy, the base values of all being equal has lost it's luster now that the white majority is threatened, apathy for laws and what the USA was founded on is in decay,

even the progressive whites of america (democrats) have grown apathetic in the fight being scared of losing even their grip on control, when the united states does finally keel over and the white race marginalized I hope we have a new United States of North America, one in which all peoples have equal representation, not just the former europeans.

United we are much stronger, one race cannot dominate forever. Hopefully the next incarnation of these United States is started off with true equality for all Northern Americans.

I for one extend my hand in friendship to all our neighbors, why not start working together NOW, sooner or later north america WILL be eyed by certain countries of asia that have had their own settling of this land in the past. A united peoples of North America has a much better chance of surviving future shifts in global power when we all stand together equally instead of squabbling over arbitrary borders and outdated notions like nationalism.

 

[Zedtom]

I just finished three weeks of jury duty in a murder trial. The principals involved were all immigrants from Guatemala and Mexico. They were invoved in gang activity and had ties to Southern California gangs.

One of the key witnessses was a undocumented Mexican who was working for the Drug Enforcement Administration. He is still an illegal alien but now works for the Department of Homeland Security!:Q

The accused was found guilty of killing another gang member, so the taxpayers will be paying for his room and board for life.

 

[Steeplerot]

"illegal alien" the notion that latino natives of southern california, an area that still even bears latino names is absurd, how can you be an alien in the very land that their great grandfathers even named....

How is a spanish person a alien in "Los Angeles" and "Santa Barbra" How dare they try to work in the "San Joaquin Valley"?

Downright arrogance.

 

[MadRat]

People that say illegal immigrants are no big deal are hiding from the problems. Just because your public works projects are done for the cheap doesn't mean real problems are not occuring, namely a drain on the American public for the well being of these people. The American public cannot afford its own let alone a bunch of people that knowingly violated immigration law. Why reward these asswipes that break the rules?

I have no problem with above board immigrants. The process weeds the bad ones out, which would not otherwise occur.

 

[EatSpam]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
"illegal alien" the notion that latino natives of southern california, an area that still even bears latino names is absurd, how can you be an alien in the very land that their great grandfathers even named.... wow, such xenophobia.

Considering their citizenship is Mexican or another country that isn't the United States, it isn't their land and illegal alien is quite appropriate. If I were to cross into Mexico illegally, they'd shoot me.

 

[Harvey]

The one issue dems and reps agree...illegals are not as bad as people think

What part of ILLEGAL do you not understand? There is a legal process for admission into the country. If the process is flawed, it should be changed, but ignoring the law wrong, and so are those who enter illegally.

 

[Steeplerot]

And what is citizenship? A piece of paper that says a migratory peoples happen to be pushed out of their mothers on a certan piece of land?

California was and will always be spanish, peoples of that area are migratory, they do no wrong besides what they have done for generations.

The white people need to step back and realize that they brought this burden of these peoples on themselves by forceably ripping california and the southwest from mexico just 150 or so years ago.

Regardless of borders polititans drew there are still natives going about their livelihoods, white people need to get of their high horse and work together not against our fellow americans.

"america" does NOT mean the USA contrary to what the ruling class thinks.

The xenophobes are fighting a losing battle, you will not stop people from doing what they have always done by drawing a border.

The concept that USA is just part of a bigger picture on this continent. But becasue of how isolated we have made ourselves to the world in recent history people are now so sensitive to our borders. It is not indignent people who need to adjust, but the ones who have isolated themselves from our very land we live on regardless of invisible lines.

(please excuse these very rough drafts)

 

[Stunt]

Could there be an alternate explanation? Such as too many elements of socialism in the economy?

You want to talk about too many socialist elements? The following is the amount each country spends on its citzens ($ per person): US is $11,126, Canada: $9,667, GB: $14,741, France: $16,895, Germany $15,473, Sweden: $22,130, Norway: 29,085, Japan: $13,764. You advocate that Japan is a model to follow because they can grow with a stagnant population and Europe is too social. Unfortunately Japan is just as socialist as europe and their economy is almost as stagnant as europe, negative gdp growth and an average below 1% over more recent years is not the economy you should be advocating.

We could have lower unemployment if the minimum wage were abolished and if people were willing to work for $1/hour, but guess what--they'd still be poor.

The workforce is still much larger than it ever could be with higher wages, if you cannot admit that you are going against economic theories. The likelihood anybody would actually have a $1/hr wage is slim, but you are correct in saying this would increase the total workforce. The alternative is unemployment, if people are willing to work for a smaller rate of pay, that is their decision, and when all is said and done; Illegals are far better off in America than they ever were in Mexico.

What kind of growth, and do the alleged benefits outweigh the negatives that you conveniently failed to mention?

The growth I am speaking of is found here where the head of the Deutsche Bank Group in France is stating the US will maintain its superpower status in 2020 and with a gdp of $17-18 trillion. The reason?
"Thanks to its dynamic demographics (1% annual population growth), a productivity and a competitiveness amongst the best in the world"
The larger population in a productive and competitive atmosphere will allow you to succeed on the long term. This growth will outpace all other 1st world countires and place you in a position to continue being the global superpower.

Your critical flaw is that you only consider the front-end gains and completely ignore the back-end costs.

I ignore the backend costs because the costs to operate a country Canada's size, UK's size, US's size are insignificant...there are no major discrepacies and all are just as diverse as the US. A larger population will NOT change your way of life. These people are just as productive (if not more so) than the average american, and their contribution is far more than the costs. If you had any validity in this statement, you would see the US gdp retard and US spending rise much more than GDP, which is not the case. Mass immigration from Mexico has happened for years, you have no proof of the negative effects on the economy, other than the info you are pulling out of your ass.

Why does the workforce need to become larger? We already have millions of Americans who are unemployed or severely underemployed.

Larger workforce means larger gdp, maintaining superpower status, economic growth from additional workers and contributers to society. The one thing that will simulate significant growth on the long term.

It's like you're promoting an economic Ponzi scheme.

Nope. Would you consider the current US population run-away? Illegals have been flowing in for years, there are millions of them...i want to know what aspect of the US economy you see faltering with these many years of mass immigration?

is there such a thing as too large of a population? Would you say that India and China could benefit from population growth?

Bringing poorer people into a rich country will raise them to the standard of living you are accustomed to on the long term. Bringing more people into India and China will do the same...but going from poor to just as poor has no effect on the economy whatsoever. Very much unlike the American situation, I'm actually surprised you'd draw a parallel beween the largest most rich nation in the world and India....lol, talk about lame brain analogies.

Do you want to see America merge its economy with the third world, with the expected results--an averaging out of the standard of living

America wouldn't be merging with the third world, but bringing more workers, consumers and contributers to help grow the economy. When the US population went from 200 to 300 million did the standard of living go down? Did it average itself out over 50% more people? No. Everyone saw increased standards of living through a large productive workforce; much like the illegals will do for the US on the short and long term.

Do we really want to have a population of 500 million people? Don't you like open spaces?

I'd want my country to be a superpower, I'd want to see my economy growing, with immigration, world population is not increasing, just the American population; if you are too greedy to give equal opportunities to those who were not as fortunate as you to be born into the most free society in the world, you sir do not deserve to live in this country. Can you please leave...you are taking up my "open space".

I wouldn't be surprised if, perhaps in our lifetimes, we get to witness some huge humanitarian catastrophes as a result of worldwide population explosion.

Again, global population is not increasing in this situation.

 

[MadRat]

Citzenship? = Bad spelling perhaps.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: MadRat
Citzenship? = Bad spelling perhaps.

I have a sticky I button, thanks for catching that.

 

[Stunt]

Originally posted by: Harvey

The one issue dems and reps agree...illegals are not as bad as people think

What part of ILLEGAL do you not understand? There is a legal process for admission into the country. If the process is flawed, it should be changed, but ignoring the law wrong, and so are those who enter illegally.

I use illegal because that is the term we currently use to describe these people.

I do support the ammendment to not make it illegal to be a landed immigrant. Now don't get me wrong, i do not support the mexico as the 51st state, I still support border control. The simple fact of the matter is these people are now US citizens and will serve the US in all its forms. To outright blame illegals for somethings is absolutely misguided and people should not worry as much as they are.

 

[EatSpam]

Originally posted by: Stunt

Originally posted by: Harvey

The one issue dems and reps agree...illegals are not as bad as people think

What part of ILLEGAL do you not understand? There is a legal process for admission into the country. If the process is flawed, it should be changed, but ignoring the law wrong, and so are those who enter illegally.

I use illegal because that is the term we currently use to describe these people.

I do support the ammendment to not make it illegal to be a landed immigrant. Now don't get me wrong, i do not support the mexico as the 51st state, I still support border control. The simple fact of the matter is these people are now US citizens and will serve the US in all its forms. To outright blame illegals for somethings is absolutely misguided and people should not worry as much as they are.

Stunt, if you want millions of people flooding over your border, please lobby your government to change its relatively strict immigration policies. I would love to move up there.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: Stunt

Originally posted by: Harvey

The one issue dems and reps agree...illegals are not as bad as people think

What part of ILLEGAL do you not understand? There is a legal process for admission into the country. If the process is flawed, it should be changed, but ignoring the law wrong, and so are those who enter illegally.

I use illegal because that is the term we currently use to describe these people.

I do support the ammendment to not make it illegal to be a landed immigrant. Now don't get me wrong, i do not support the mexico as the 51st state, I still support border control. The simple fact of the matter is these people are now US citizens and will serve the US in all its forms. To outright blame illegals for somethings is absolutely misguided and people should not worry as much as they are.

If you were making a reference to my rants above I do not wish mexico to be the 51st state. I wish to see all of north america working together and yes that includes you cannucks too.

Al lthree countries have very different ways of looking at things so a new constitution fair to ALL peoples from the tip top of canada territorys to the vast city of mexico. latinos, anglo saxon, etc etc etc

Nationalism is a hinderence to moving forward imo.

And we are looking at some serious competition from the far east soon.

United we stand, divided we WILL sooner or later fall.

The united nations imo is a noble goal of a people weary of nationalism and the pain it causes needlessly, it still has problems with nationalism.

Regardless when they do get over their differences they will be a very strong peoples together.

North America can do the same with some real cooperation, not only is it inevitable but sooner or later it will be a nessesity imo.

 

[Stunt]

Originally posted by: EatSpam
Stunt, if you want millions of people flooding over your border, please lobby your government to change its relatively strict immigration policies. I would love to move up there.

I do advocate less strict immigration. The inflow of population would bode well with our small population and resource rich country.