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Shutdown over?

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glenn1 said:
Secondly, rule of law basically requires us to impose some kind of penalty on those we're giving amnesty to, both for moral hazard reasons and to make it right for those who did go through legal channels and the undocumented basically screwed over (in addition to the American people). I'd say permanent residency but no citizenship ever for those here in 'undocumented status' and a sizable monetary penalty which will in turn be used to pay support and legal fees for those who did immigrate legally. That both rewards legal immigrants for "following the rules" and will disincentivize those who would break the law to get and stay here.
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Oh please, enough with the "moral hazard" argument. While we're at it, let's bring back debtors' prisons--we can't allow all these freeloaders to rack up credit card debt, then just declare bankruptcy and move on! And while we're going after them to pay it back, we should go after their kids too! Mommy and Daddy over-leveraged themselves to pay your tuition bills? Tough shit, better pack up and leave and we'll be garnishing your low paying job's wages too because of your parents' debts!
 
glenn1 said:
Okay let's talk deals then. How much are you willing to raise immigration quotas and what concessions are you going to require as a condition of that "amnesty"? Currently it's 675k annually not in country already immigrants, plus another half-million or so "change of status" approvals which is essentially allowing those here already to stay. I'd be fine with doubling or maybe even tripling that number to closer approximate the current demand curve.

Secondly, rule of law basically requires us to impose some kind of penalty on those we're giving amnesty to, both for moral hazard reasons and to make it right for those who did go through legal channels and the undocumented basically screwed over (in addition to the American people). I'd say permanent residency but no citizenship ever for those here in 'undocumented status' and a sizable monetary penalty which will in turn be used to pay support and legal fees for those who did immigrate legally. That both rewards legal immigrants for "following the rules" and will disincentivize those who would break the law to get and stay here.
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And, the double down diversion. Immigration quotas are immaterial to the issue of people already in this country. The GOP obviously has no intention of increasing quotas.

The rule of law demands no punitive measures. That's just your self righteousness shining through. We are the greatest civilization in the history of the world & we can well afford to be both generous & forgiving. It really costs us nothing.
 
imported_tajmahal said:
I support changes in our immigration laws and think they should be passed before any large scale change to permit illegal aliens or temporary aliens to be given citizenship or permanent status. Back when President Reagan was promised changes in the laws and allowed amnesty we all found out what liars the Democrats were on the subject.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/todays-immigration-debate-rooted-reagan-amnesty-experts-say

If we permanently fix the problem and enforce border controls I see no problem with giving immigrants a path to citizenship, but the changes need to be passed first.
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Ah so once again, a massive republican fuckup again became the democrat's fault. Most children learn that their bad arguments are simply bad arguments and stop repeating them. What's your excuse, tajjy?
 
UNCjigga said:
Oh please, enough with the "moral hazard" argument. While we're at it, let's bring back debtors' prisons--we can't allow all these freeloaders to rack up credit card debt, then just declare bankruptcy and move on! And while we're going after them to pay it back, we should go after their kids too! Mommy and Daddy over-leveraged themselves to pay your tuition bills? Tough shit, better pack up and leave and we'll be garnishing your low paying job's wages too because of your parents' debts!
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Actually bankruptcy normally requires you to liquidate almost all your assets (absent low priced vehicle, personal effects, etc) and has other numerous undesirable side effects like credit impairment and may adversely impact your professional opportunities. Not to mention the reputation impacts, loss of privacy, and possibility of ongoing personal debt liability (for example, Chapter 7 doesn't help you with the lien on your house). Conversion of "undocumented status" to permanent residency should be similarly impactful to those we extend it to.
 
Jhhnn said:
And, the double down diversion. Immigration quotas are immaterial to the issue of people already in this country. The GOP obviously has no intention of increasing quotas.

The rule of law demands no punitive measures. That's just your self righteousness shining through. We are the greatest civilization in the history of the world & we can well afford to be both generous & forgiving. It really costs us nothing.
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Then stop the bullsh!t and just say outright that you think we should be completely open border and want to repeal all existing immigration laws. Such honestly would both be refreshing and cost you nothing.
 
glenn1 said:
Then stop the bullsh!t and just say outright that you think we should be completely open border and want to repeal all existing immigration laws. Such honestly would both be refreshing and cost you nothing.
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Ok. Repeal all existing immigration law. Write new ones that make more sense to what the US economy is already requiring and doing.
 
heard something interesting yesterday.

"My family immigrated here legally!" ....said by the generations of today's Americans whose family were refugees of famine, war, and poverty, over the many many decades of immigration that created this country.

Thing is...there was no "legal," because there were no laws governing immigration. Turns out, up until the 40s or 50s?, you just needed to get on a boat (or whatever) and walk on in. I think the immigration ACt of 1880 was more specifically exclusionatory to specific types of immigrants (those evil Chinese building our railroads) rather than a law governing immigration. ...if I'm not mistaken

Kinda the more obvious "FYGM!" attitude on display with this debate.

As for me, my family came over on the Mayflower. You're all illegal losers and I should be well within my right to deport the lot of you!
 
K1052 said:
Uhhhhhh...this was added by the House GOP to try and scare up some Democratic votes for the shutdown avoiding CR. It's like I can literally hear Paul Ryan's head repeatedly slamming into his desk from here.


Gn5d9LH.png
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What a fucking idiot. The CHIP extension they proposed was SIX YEARS. He really just has no idea what the hell he is talking about ever does he? But way to blow the whole thing up because you're too stupid to know what's going on.

Remember the White House pushing back on McConnell saying yesterday they don't really know what he wants... yeah between this and the back and forth with COS Kelly I can see why they have no clue what this admin expects.

I actually feel bad for the GOP (not really). They are doing what they feel they need to when boom. Another tweet. Not a face to face or phone call they can seek clarification on and offer information. Just more verbal diarrhea being tossed out by Herr Twitler.
 
zinfamous said:
Ah so once again, a massive republican fuckup again became the democrat's fault. Most children learn that their bad arguments are simply bad arguments and stop repeating them. What's your excuse, tajjy?
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You know what his reason is and it's not an excuse, it's fact. He's a dick.
 
glenn1 said:
Then stop the bullsh!t and just say outright that you think we should be completely open border and want to repeal all existing immigration laws. Such honestly would both be refreshing and cost you nothing.
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Nice straw man. I argue on the behalf of people who are already in this country, not those trying to get in. You know, people who lead productive lives & contribute to our greatness despite the obstacles they face. Most of them have been here over a decade. Real human beings, not some abstract "them" to be dehumanized.

And, let's face it, there's no fucking way that the GOP will fund any honest effort to deport all of them, either, or that Dems will condone the methods required. The notion that we'll deport 10% of the population of greater LA is completely insane, for example.

But they'll rave & pander to get the votes of every xenophobe in the country.
 
MomentsofSanity said:
What a fucking idiot. The CHIP extension they proposed was SIX YEARS. He really just has no idea what the hell he is talking about ever does he? But way to blow the whole thing up because you're too stupid to know what's going on.

Remember the White House pushing back on McConnell saying yesterday they don't really know what he wants... yeah between this and the back and forth with COS Kelly I can see why they have no clue what this admin expects.
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Republicans must be pissed at the President, because he pretty much just admitted that these childrens' lives were being used as nothing more than a political bargaining chip over the past several months to keep Democrats in line. Pathetic.
 
UNCjigga said:
Republicans must be pissed at the President, because he pretty much just admitted that these childrens' lives were being used as nothing more than a political bargaining chip over the past several months to keep Democrats in line. Pathetic.
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The GOP loves taking hostages.
 
zinfamous said:
Ah so once again, a massive republican fuckup again became the democrat's fault. Most children learn that their bad arguments are simply bad arguments and stop repeating them. What's your excuse, tajjy?
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Believing in what people I know are liars are actually saying? To trust a leftist or Democrat on their word is to be played for a fool.
 
zinfamous said:
As for me, my family came over on the Mayflower. You're all illegal losers and I should be well within my right to deport the lot of you!
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So you come from a long line of whackjobs? My ancestors sailed with St. Brendan.
 
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MomentsofSanity said:
What a fucking idiot. The CHIP extension they proposed was SIX YEARS. He really just has no idea what the hell he is talking about ever does he? But way to blow the whole thing up because you're too stupid to know what's going on.

Remember the White House pushing back on McConnell saying yesterday they don't really know what he wants... yeah between this and the back and forth with COS Kelly I can see why they have no clue what this admin expects.

I actually feel bad for the GOP (not really). They are doing what they feel they need to when boom. Another tweet. Not a face to face or phone call they can seek clarification on and offer information. Just more verbal diarrhea being tossed out by Herr Twitler.
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Trump seems hell bent on destroying social programs but then again rich people don't need them anyway.😱😵
 
UNCjigga said:
Basically, the White House literally shit all over a bipartisan agreement on DACA and border security that would've made funding the government much easier. They are grossly incompetent, as per yoosh, and somehow it's all the Democrats' fault.
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GOP being full on A-holes. The DACA recpients are AMERICANS, end of story. And speaking of the military, 900 of these kids are active duty, serving THEIR country. Do you really mean to tell me that conservatives want to deport 900 troops to a country where many don't know anyone and don't even speak the language, solely because their parents brought them to America when they were children and had zero choice? That's not only cruel as hell but totally insane.
 
Jhhnn said:
And now, presenting the "should have been" alternate reality argument. Except that's not what happened. But you're open to fantasy solutions that the GOP won't implement, of course.

You offer fantasy choices while claiming that I'm the one misrepresenting the choices.
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I am sticking by the rules that were set forth in the beginning. You are attempting to change the rules. That is fine but you should at least be honest about it.

As of now the rules stand as written and should be adhered to.
 
interchange said:
Out of curiosity, if a TPS recipient is adding value to the community through employment and not indirectly taking advantage of government assistance (e.g. through using EDs for medical care without paying for bills), would you still want them to return to their country of origin once the country has stabilized? I certainly would accept arguments around ethical and practical challenges in assessing whether a person is adding value to a community though probably try to substantiate them more.

Back to the shut down topic, I suspect if nothing passes Trump is going to be furious. I'm going to be very interested in what happens if he blames Republicans.
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Yes and then they can apply via normal channels to come back if they desire.
 
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