Shutdown over?

[JSt0rm]

OK then, define temporary for me.

there until racist says no.

 

[pcgeek11]

So the justification for throwing them out 17 years into it is a technical point of the law? That's it? Just because we can then we should do it?

The Salvadorans & the Dreamers are innocent people who have done nothing wrong. They love this country in ways that only an immigrant can really understand. We can easily fold them right in to the greatness of America. Or we can be petty & vindictive chickenshits. Take your pick

It isn't a technical point, it is in fact the way the deal was written and should be adhered to. It should have been done by the past presidents who were negligent in their duty. It isn't like they didn't know their status was temporary.

I am open to compromise for the persons that have been here for 17 years, as long as the TPS is fixed to truly stick to a temporary protection status to help people in a time of need is only temporary and not used as a back door around the normal route of entry.

You are grossly misrepresenting the choices.

 

[pcgeek11]

there until racist says no.

It has nothing to do with race.

 

[Meghan54]

It isn't a technical point, it is in fact the way the deal was written and should be adhered to. It should have been done by the past presidents who were negligent in their duty. It isn't like they didn't know their status was temporary.

I am open to compromise for the persons that have been here for 17 years, as long as the TPS is fixed to truly stick to a temporary protection status to help people in a time of need is only temporary and not used as a back door around the normal route of entry.

You are grossly misrepresenting the choices.

You do know that only the AG of the U.S. can legally cancel the TPS status of anyone, right? And that's only done by the AG certifying the country(ies) from which the TPS refugees came from as no longer being dangerous and/or the country's recovered from the natural disaster/whatever that allowed TPS status to be granted in the first place. And any changes have to be by supermajority vote in the Senate.

Sec. 302 of this: https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/eoir/legacy/2009/03/04/IMMACT1990.pdf

Kinda doing it incorrectly, the Trump admin. is.

It's all in the 1990 Imm. Act, linked above, which started the TPS program, signed into law by George Bush.

 

[pcgeek11]

You do know that only the AG of the U.S. can legally cancel the TPS status of anyone, right? And that's only done by the AG certifying the country(ies) from which the TPS refugees came from as no longer being dangerous and/or the country's recovered from the natural disaster/whatever that allowed TPS status to be granted in the first place. And any changes have to be by supermajority vote in the Senate.

Sec. 302 of this: https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/eoir/legacy/2009/03/04/IMMACT1990.pdf

Kinda doing it incorrectly, the Trump admin. is.

It's all in the 1990 Imm. Act, linked above, which started the TPS program, signed into law by George Bush.

Like I said Temporary.

For purposes of this section, the initial period of designation of a foreign state (or
part thereof) under paragraph (1) is the period, specified by the Attorney General,
of not less than 6 months and not more than 18 months.
"(3) Periodic review, terminations, and extensions of designations.--

"(A) Periodic review.--At least 60 days before end of the initial period of
designation, and any extended period of designation, of a foreign state (or part
thereof) under this section the Attorney General, after consultation with
appropriate agencies of the Government, shall review the conditions in the
foreign state (or part of such foreign state) for which a designation is in effect
under this subsection and shall determine whether the conditions for such
designation under this subsection continue to be met. The Attorney General shall
provide on a timely basis for the publication of notice of each such determination
(including the basis for the determination, and, in the case of an affirmative
determination, the period of extension of designation under subparagraph (C)) in
the Federal Register.

"(B) Termination of designation.--If the Attorney General determines under
subparagraph (A) that a foreign state (or part of such foreign state) no longer
continues to meet the conditions for designation under paragraph (1), the
Attorney General shall terminate the designation by publishing notice in the
Federal Register of the determination under this subparagraph (including the
basis for the determination). Such termination is effective in accordance with
subsection (d)(3), but shall not be effective earl ier than 60 days after the date
the notice is published or, if later, the expiration of the most recent previous
extension under subparagraph (C).

"(C) Extension of designation.--If the Attorney General does not determine
under subparagraph (A) that a foreign state (or part of such foreign state) no
longer meets the conditions for designation under paragraph (1), the period of
designation of the foreign state is extended for an additional period of 6 months
(or, in the discretion of the Attorney General, a period of 12 or 18 months).

 

[brycejones]

It has nothing to do with race.

I'm sure we would be having the same conversation if it was a bunch of Canadians on TPS.

 

[K1052]

Uhhhhhh...this was added by the House GOP to try and scare up some Democratic votes for the shutdown avoiding CR. It's like I can literally hear Paul Ryan's head repeatedly slamming into his desk from here.

 

[brycejones]

Uhhhhhh...this was added by the House GOP to try and scare up some Democratic votes for the shutdown avoiding CR. It's like I can literally hear Paul Ryan's head repeatedly slamming into his desk from here.

Fire, Ready, Don't bother aiming, and keep firing, never stop firing

 

[IronWing]

Fire, Ready, Don't bother aiming, and keep firing, never stop firing

This strategy actually works when you have the biggest mouth.

 

[MajinCry]

What? You're trying to blackmail me into changing a political opinion? Go screw yourself.

Blackmail? You're quickly becoming more and more disconnected with reality.

 

[imported_tajmahal]

Like I said Temporary.

For purposes of this section, the initial period of designation of a foreign state (or
part thereof) under paragraph (1) is the period, specified by the Attorney General,
of not less than 6 months and not more than 18 months.
"(3) Periodic review, terminations, and extensions of designations.--

"(A) Periodic review.--At least 60 days before end of the initial period of
designation, and any extended period of designation, of a foreign state (or part
thereof) under this section the Attorney General, after consultation with
appropriate agencies of the Government, shall review the conditions in the
foreign state (or part of such foreign state) for which a designation is in effect
under this subsection and shall determine whether the conditions for such
designation under this subsection continue to be met. The Attorney General shall
provide on a timely basis for the publication of notice of each such determination
(including the basis for the determination, and, in the case of an affirmative
determination, the period of extension of designation under subparagraph (C)) in
the Federal Register.

"(B) Termination of designation.--If the Attorney General determines under
subparagraph (A) that a foreign state (or part of such foreign state) no longer
continues to meet the conditions for designation under paragraph (1), the
Attorney General shall terminate the designation by publishing notice in the
Federal Register of the determination under this subparagraph (including the
basis for the determination). Such termination is effective in accordance with
subsection (d)(3), but shall not be effective earl ier than 60 days after the date
the notice is published or, if later, the expiration of the most recent previous
extension under subparagraph (C).

"(C) Extension of designation.--If the Attorney General does not determine
under subparagraph (A) that a foreign state (or part of such foreign state) no
longer meets the conditions for designation under paragraph (1), the period of
designation of the foreign state is extended for an additional period of 6 months
(or, in the discretion of the Attorney General, a period of 12 or 18 months).

They (the Democratic posters) will just continue to lie about it, obfuscate and then lie again. It's what they do and who they are.

 

[Jhhnn]

It isn't a technical point, it is in fact the way the deal was written and should be adhered to. It should have been done by the past presidents who were negligent in their duty. It isn't like they didn't know their status was temporary.

I am open to compromise for the persons that have been here for 17 years, as long as the TPS is fixed to truly stick to a temporary protection status to help people in a time of need is only temporary and not used as a back door around the normal route of entry.

You are grossly misrepresenting the choices.

And now, presenting the "should have been" alternate reality argument. Except that's not what happened. But you're open to fantasy solutions that the GOP won't implement, of course.

You offer fantasy choices while claiming that I'm the one misrepresenting the choices.

 

[Younigue]

They (the Democratic posters) will just continue to lie about it, obfuscate and then lie again. It's what they do and who they are.

Yet you get upset when we tag you as immoral, cruel, deplorables. It's who you are. It's what Trumpublicans do and who they are.

 

[glenn1]

We may have run tajjy off. Not for long I'm sure but watch... He'll show us what "temporary" means... Do we think he'll have time to establish a life and raise a family in the time that he's away?

One thing this approach will do is ensure there is never again any GOP support for a "temporary" relief program. It will either be done through normal visa channels under humanitarian rules or not at all. At some point maybe progressives who in reality are in favor of de facto open borders will simply be honest about that instead of keeping up this ludicrous facade.

 

[K1052]

Dem senators saying they won't vote for the CR. House conservatives saying they won't vote for the CR.

Looks like its falling apart.

 

[Jhhnn]

First, the Goodlatte amnesty provision is extremely narrow.
It would only allow illegal immigrants who currently have “deferred action on the basis of being brought to the U.S. as minors [to] get a 3-year renewable legal status allowing them to work and travel overseas.” In other words, there would be no permanent status or path to citizenship

So, the proposal just kicks the can down the road three years & solves nothing. The maudlin pandering to the rule of law is also quite cute. The GOP has no interest in creating & funding the kind of immigration Gestapo it would take to deport ~11M illegals & TPS residents in this country. The proposition is absurd. So, if we're not going to do that, what else can be done to restore the rule of law they claim to care about so much? Think really, really hard now...

 

[UNCjigga]

So, the proposal just kicks the can down the road three years & solves nothing. The maudlin pandering to the rule of law is also quite cute. The GOP has no interest in creating & funding the kind of immigration Gestapo it would take to deport ~11M illegals & TPS residents in this country. The proposition is absurd. So, if we're not going to do that, what else can be done to restore the rule of law they claim to care about so much? Think really, really hard now...

Goodlatte is actually much worse...it establishes a permanent underclass...second-class "Americans" without a clear path to citizenship. Basically, we'll be happy to take your tax dollars, but we'll be damned if you have full legal rights or the right to vote!

 

[JSt0rm]

Goodlatte is actually much worse...it establishes a permanent underclass...second-class "Americans" without a clear path to citizenship. Basically, we'll be happy to take your tax dollars, but we'll be damned if you have full legal rights or the right to vote!

history.txt

 

[glenn1]

Goodlatte is actually much worse...it establishes a permanent underclass...second-class "Americans" without a clear path to citizenship. Basically, we'll be happy to take your tax dollars, but we'll be damned if you have full legal rights or the right to vote!

So basically what Dems want with the DACA program. In public for voters they say no increased immigration quotas which basically tells would-be immigrants that seeking to come through legal channels is for suckers. Then giving a wink and nod to those who are here via elicit channels and when talking to immigrant communities with the whispered "now just stay out sight for a few years until we can get you legalized."

 

[Jaskalas]

I'm sure we would be having the same conversation if it was a bunch of Canadians on TPS.

I'll explain it from a place I once was:

We have more illegal immigrants (and their citizen children) than the entire population of Canada. Kind of difficult to reverse it when the scale does not compare. But in the end all that matters is they're poor, they speak another language, and they are viewed as hostile. The color of one's skin is immaterial to the serious cultural and class differences.

Canada is fine because they are small in population (non threatening), fairly well off financially (non threatening), and (mostly) speak the same language (non threatening). I think American conservatives probably view Canadians as nothing more than an extension of American liberals. Where the only threatening thing is their policy.

Do you want to compare violence statistics between Canada and Mexico? No, because all you see is the color of their skin.

 

[imported_tajmahal]

So basically what Dems want with the DACA program. In public for voters they say no increased immigration quotas which basically tells would-be immigrants that seeking to come through legal channels is for suckers. Then giving a wink and nod to those who are here via elicit channels and when talking to immigrant communities with the whispered "now just stay out sight for a few years until we can get you legalized."

Absolutely. They encourage illegals and criminal immigrants and spit in the face of the honest and ethical immigrants that try to follow the legal pathways.

 

[Jhhnn]

So basically what Dems want with the DACA program. In public for voters they say no increased immigration quotas which basically tells would-be immigrants that seeking to come through legal channels is for suckers. Then giving a wink and nod to those who are here via elicit channels and when talking to immigrant communities with the whispered "now just stay out sight for a few years until we can get you legalized."

So, conspiracy theory, right?

Keeping immigration quotas low is a concession to the GOP. It's what they want. You'll play Hell finding any GOP'ers who say any differently. Pinning that on Dems is dishonest.

The whole GOP approach is utterly dishonest, playing on xenophobia & a false sense of self righteousness. It completely ignores reality & offers no solutions at all.

Reality is that there are a few 100K people in this country under temporary visas who've been here more than a decade. There are at least 800K Dreamers. There are ~11M people here w/o authorization of any kind. Many of them have American citizen dependents.

You know- facts. There are basically three ways to deal with those facts.

1. Continue much as we have been.

2. Fund an immigration Gestapo to deport them.

3. Create some sort of amnesty.

You can muddy that up all you want w/ walls, border security, immigration quotas & whatever but those facts & those choices define reality.

The GOP obviously intends to do nothing at all because it's not a practical matter to them. They'll just let DACA & TPS visas expire, make 'em all illegal, then enforce it all in their usual capricious fashion. It's a great perma-issue, red meat for the chumps. It also establishes a workforce that has no rights, the GOP model for all of us.

 

[interchange]

I am open to compromise for the persons that have been here for 17 years, as long as the TPS is fixed to truly stick to a temporary protection status to help people in a time of need is only temporary and not used as a back door around the normal route of entry.

Out of curiosity, if a TPS recipient is adding value to the community through employment and not indirectly taking advantage of government assistance (e.g. through using EDs for medical care without paying for bills), would you still want them to return to their country of origin once the country has stabilized? I certainly would accept arguments around ethical and practical challenges in assessing whether a person is adding value to a community though probably try to substantiate them more.

Back to the shut down topic, I suspect if nothing passes Trump is going to be furious. I'm going to be very interested in what happens if he blames Republicans.

 

[UNCjigga]

Absolutely. They encourage illegals and criminal immigrants and spit in the face of the honest and ethical immigrants that try to follow the legal pathways.

I believe every bi-partisan version of a clean DREAM Act closes the loophole for future illegals bringing kids to the US, requiring proof of residency for at least 4-5 years prior to passage of the Act.

I agree that it would be better to pass a DREAM Act with comprehensive immigration reform and sensible border security (not a $20 billion wall), but unfortunately our idiot President setup an artificial timeline for ending DACA with no agreement from his own party on providing a fix.

 

[glenn1]

So, conspiracy theory, right?

Keeping immigration quotas low is a concession to the GOP. It's what they want. You'll play Hell finding any GOP'ers who say any differently. Pinning that on Dems is dishonest.

The whole GOP approach is utterly dishonest, playing on xenophobia & a false sense of self righteousness. It completely ignores reality & offers no solutions at all.

Reality is that there are a few 100K people in this country under temporary visas who've been here more than a decade. There are at least 800K Dreamers. There are ~11M people here w/o authorization of any kind. Many of them have American citizen dependents.

You know- facts. There are basically three ways to deal with those facts.

1. Continue much as we have been.

2. Fund an immigration Gestapo to deport them.

3. Create some sort of amnesty.

You can muddy that up all you want w/ walls, border security, immigration quotas & whatever but those facts & those choices define reality.

The GOP obviously intends to do nothing at all because it's not a practical matter to them. They'll just let DACA & TPS visas expire, make 'em all illegal, then enforce it all in their usual capricious fashion. It's a great perma-issue, red meat for the chumps. It also establishes a workforce that has no rights, the GOP model for all of us.

Okay let's talk deals then. How much are you willing to raise immigration quotas and what concessions are you going to require as a condition of that "amnesty"? Currently it's 675k annually not in country already immigrants, plus another half-million or so "change of status" approvals which is essentially allowing those here already to stay. I'd be fine with doubling or maybe even tripling that number to closer approximate the current demand curve.

Secondly, rule of law basically requires us to impose some kind of penalty on those we're giving amnesty to, both for moral hazard reasons and to make it right for those who did go through legal channels and the undocumented basically screwed over (in addition to the American people). I'd say permanent residency but no citizenship ever for those here in 'undocumented status' and a sizable monetary penalty which will in turn be used to pay support and legal fees for those who did immigrate legally. That both rewards legal immigrants for "following the rules" and will disincentivize those who would break the law to get and stay here.