Shouldn't mandatory education be abolished?

[MovingTarget]

There are many, many problems with our public schools. That does not invalidate the need for an educated populace - either for our industry or democracy to survive. The free market would do a horrible job overall without a public system in place, not because there arent many wonderful private schools, but because we cannot afford the great masses of completely uneducated people that would inevitably arise. Those who aren't born into a family with a decent income will have fewer and fewer opportunities, eventually leading to the collapse of our system entirely. So go ahead and argue that the public system should be scrapped....

 

[MotF Bane]

Actually public education was somewhat like this when I attended school. The goal then was to produce a functionally literate population while providing the grounding necessary for those that had the desire to attend college. There were large vocational ed programs for students that wanted to work in the trades as well as programs for the college bound.

Bring this back.

 

[CallMeJoe]

Schools should be segregated. Kids that learn fast should not be in the same classes as kids who learn slow. Why on earth should it be any other way?
If you put slow kids in with fast kids, it doesn't make the slow kids go faster. It makes the fast kids go slower and the slow kids feel like shit. Everyone knows this.

Kids may learn the difference between adjectives and adverbs, and when to use them.

They might even learn to favor originality over inane forum memes...

 

[Zorba]

Shouldn't you being on my ignore list keep me from seeing your threads?

 

[MotF Bane]

Schools should be segregated. Kids that learn fast should not be in the same classes as kids who learn slow. Why on earth should it be any other way?

If you put slow kids in with fast kids, it doesn't make the slow kids go faster. It makes the fast kids go slower and the slow kids feel like shit. Everyone knows this.

But we don't want to be unfair and hurt the self-esteem of those poor slow children! Let's drag everyone down!

Yeah....

 

[Jhhnn]

Schools should be segregated. Kids that learn fast should not be in the same classes as kids who learn slow. Why on earth should it be any other way?

If you put slow kids in with fast kids, it doesn't make the slow kids go faster. It makes the fast kids go slower and the slow kids feel like shit. Everyone knows this.

So you're saying that the fact that kids may learn at different rates is racial, or what?

In larger schools, properly financed, kids are already grouped by class placement, have been for decades...

 

[piasabird]

In Korea the Government only pays for education through gradeschool. Then parents are expected to pay for high school. This means you can choose to send your kids to the high school of your choice and there is more selection and competition. All the high schools are independent (to a point).

They may have changed things a bit since 20 years ago.

Other countries do things differently than what we are use to in the United States. They just choose to approach things differently. Some laws and rules we have in the United States only serve to narrow choices and freedom.

 

[piasabird]

I can see it now kids will walk the street with no reading or writing skills and be completely illiterate.

Just pretend you are in Africa.

 

[Greenman]

I do not believe that public secondary education should be abolished. HOWEVER, it does need to be fundamentally changed.

As a society, not everyone needs to go to college. Not everyone needs a liberal arts education. The current ideology is that everyone "deserves" to go to college, and that's simply not true.

We need to make a shift in our expectations of society. There are a LOT of kids who simply are not cut out for college, and forcing them to go to a general high school (and sometimes college) does more harm than good.

What I would like to see is this: middle schools (6-8 grades) should be structured in such a way that the students have their aptitudes tested. Then, in 8th grade, they are given a test which, in addition to teacher input, determines whether or not they are "college-bound". If they are, they should be put into a traditional high school with other students who are of like intellect, ambition, and goals. If they are determined to not be college bound, they should be sent to vocational schools where they learn a trade.

There is nothing derogatory or inherently bad about learning a trade. The current system, however, creates overcrowded highschools and colleges full of people who really don't want to be there. This causes everyone to suffer. The mentality that everyone "deserves" a college education is destructive to people who actually WANT a college education. Additionally, it's simply not true.

Teaching kids a trade for 4 years keeps them off the streets, gives them a set of skills they can use in the real world, and might actually be interesting to some of them. Core competencies, such as reading and writing, must be a part of that, but the full liberal arts curriculum certainly is not required. Let them pick a field they enjoy and let them learn how to do it. When they're done, they have marketable skills.

You know that's right of the liberal elitist handbook, right? Next point, as soon as the testing reveals one or more ethnic groups with a lower percentage going to collage, there will be a lawsuit and testing will be adjusted so equal numbers of all ethnicity's get an education. I could go on picking this apart for another page or two, but I'm sure you get the idea by now.

 

[Jhhnn]

I can see it now kids will walk the street with no reading or writing skills and be completely illiterate.

Just pretend you are in Africa.

Yeh, but they'll be easier to manipulate by the likes of Rush, O'Reilly, Hannity, Beck, and so forth...

If you think that Rightwing leadership wants the general population to possess critical thinking skills, well, think again...

 

[drebo]

So you're saying that the fact that kids may learn at different rates is racial, or what?

Oh, you were talking about race?

I had no idea that race was even part of the discussion at all. Race has no bearing what so ever on the aptitude of a student. Why would you imply otherwise?

(Note: I knew you were playing the race card, which is why I specifically structured my reply to avoid it. I wanted you to admit it yourself.)

 

[drebo]

Kids may learn the difference between adjectives and adverbs, and when to use them.

They might even learn to favor originality over inane forum memes...

Right...because the fact that I learned nearly all of my English grammar from my 6 years of French instruction means that my argument is invalid.

Perhaps removing tenure might have allowed the system to fire the consistently burnt out English teachers I had throughout my years of school and provided me with one who would have done some good.

 

[drebo]

You know that's right of the liberal elitist handbook, right? Next point, as soon as the testing reveals one or more ethnic groups with a lower percentage going to collage, there will be a lawsuit and testing will be adjusted so equal numbers of all ethnicity's get an education. I could go on picking this apart for another page or two, but I'm sure you get the idea by now.

Ethnicity? No.

I've known people of all ethnicities that were very bright. I've also known people of all ethnicites that were very dumb.

As a society, for as much as we claim to be "colorblind", we sure go through an aweful lot of trouble to make sure that we never really are.

 

[MotF Bane]

So you're saying that the fact that kids may learn at different rates is racial, or what?

In larger schools, properly financed, kids are already grouped by class placement, have been for decades...

No, that's not what he's saying, you racist moron.

Look again at the schools.

 

[MotF Bane]

Yeh, but they'll be easier to manipulate by the likes of Rush, O'Reilly, Hannity, Beck, and so forth...

If you think that Rightwing leadership wants the general population to possess critical thinking skills, well, think again...

If you think either party's leadership wants an intelligent general population, you are deluded.

 

[Tristicus]

Oh, you were talking about race?

I had no idea that race was even part of the discussion at all. Race has no bearing what so ever on the aptitude of a student. Why would you imply otherwise?

(Note: I knew you were playing the race card, which is why I specifically structured my reply to avoid it. I wanted you to admit it yourself.)

Oh shi-

 

[Jhhnn]

You know that's right of the liberal elitist handbook, right? Next point, as soon as the testing reveals one or more ethnic groups with a lower percentage going to collage, there will be a lawsuit and testing will be adjusted so equal numbers of all ethnicity's get an education. I could go on picking this apart for another page or two, but I'm sure you get the idea by now.

Lots of projection and nay-saying in that.

Doing well in school often has more to do with interest than aptitude. For some kids, reading Great Expectations is interesting and rewarding, while for others it's boring and sucks desperately. For some, crafting a term paper is rewarding, for others equally intelligent, it's misery, and they'd rather be working in a physical medium.

Skilled tradesmen often earn more than theoretically better educated pencil pushers, rightfully so. They actually do things that matter, make people's lives better, create and maintain the private structure and public infrastructure we all take for granted.

Not that your hubris would allow you to see that, let alone accept it...

 

[DucatiMonster696]

In Korea the Government only pays for education through gradeschool. Then parents are expected to pay for high school. This means you can choose to send your kids to the high school of your choice and there is more selection and competition. All the high schools are independent (to a point).

They may have changed things a bit since 20 years ago.

Other countries do things differently than what we are use to in the United States. They just choose to approach things differently. Some laws and rules we have in the United States only serve to narrow choices and freedom.

That is also true of Japan. High school is not mandatory but practically everyone student in Japan attends a secondary school.

The problem with our education system is not the schools IMHO it is the lumping in of kids (and their parents who push them to achieve) who want to learn with those (along with their fucktard parents) who have no desire whatsoever to gain an education. There really needs a separation between both groups.

If you take school seriously you go here ->

If you don't take school seriously well you can go over there --->

Edit: Vocational schools are nice but frankly we do not have the same job opportunities available as in the past for those entering such schools. So the options are limited and frankly there are a lot of instances were such vocational schools end up turning into dropout/last resort schools which they should never turn into in the first place.

 

[CallMeJoe]

Right...because the fact that I learned nearly all of my English grammar from my 6 years of French instruction means that my argument is invalid.
Perhaps removing tenure might have allowed the system to fire the consistently burnt out English teachers I had throughout my years of school and provided me with one who would have done some good.

Read my first post in the thread before you incorrectly assume we disagree. I just can't resist mocking poor grammar and syntax in a thread on the importance of education.

I also have little patience for mindless repetition of annoying forum memes. Everyone knows this.

 

[woolfe9999]

There's nothing wrong with local taxes funding public schools in those areas. Vouchers, property taxes, lottery proceeds, etc...that's all fine. There should not, however, be any federal involvement in the school system.

Additionally the main problem with schools is the "equality of outcome" ideology for students. My wife is a 4th grade teacher, and she has had kids that couldn't read in the same class with kids who could read at an 8th grade level. She's had kids that were at a 6th grade level for math in classes with kids who didn't know basic arithmetic. There certainly does need to be more division based upon intellect in the schools. All kids are NOT capable of reaching the same level as far as learning goes. The idea that they can simply holds back the smarter kids, bringing everyone to sub-mediocre levels.

In primary schools, if these types of divisions were institutionalised, kids would be happier and teachers would be more able to teach the kids they had...whether they were "slow" or "fast". Primary schools would be a LOT more effective.

Secondary schools should split the kids into vocational vs. educational schools, for much the same reason.

The highschool I went to had a class that was a year-long class. It was "industrial technology" or some such. During the course of the year, they built a mobile home, and then at the end of the year, they sold it to pay for the class. In much the same way that cosmatology schools give cheap haircuts, etc, these vocational schools could offer discount oil changes or other basic services to communities to help subsidise their operating costs and reduce the burden on the tax payers.

There are a LOT of potential reforms that could be made to the school systems across the country, but they all start with getting rid of the idea of "equality of outcome" for the kids. It's simply not true. Some kids are destined to be intellectuals, whereas some are destined to work in a trade. It's not a caste system, so there should be no stigma attached to it, and there is nothing wrong with helping the kids reach their full potential whether it be as a scientist, a computer programmer, or an electrician.

I think your basic ideas are sound. The particulars of implementation are obviously debatable. My sister teaches third grade, and she has the same issue with there being a large ability span in her class. She believes in what is called "developmentally appropriate practices," meaning she teaches each child at his or her own level. A lot of the instruction is therefore individualized, with less emphasis on classroom wide "lectures." Rather, she splits them into subgroups and has them perform various educational tasks, and walks around to give instruction to each smaller group. So basically, she believes in doing what you suggest, but without separating the students into different classes per se (I think she believes that this stigmatizes lower performing students into perpetually under-performing). She also doesn't like uniform testing standards, whether they are federal or state.

You may be right about a vocational/educational split at high school level. I think for those who under-achieve and end up on the vocational track, but eventually regrit it and/or realize they had talent not realized earlier, there should be the option to GED->community college->university, if he or she can manage it.

- wolf

 

[classy]

Honestly I can't even believe anyone would suggest anything this fvcking stupid. I have read many threads over the years, thousands, like many here have and I can't remember a more stupid thread.

 

[Wheezer]

Yeah, I know public high school helped get me into college, but I was reading http://mises.org/daily/4525 and it really exposes how lousy and unnecessary mandatory public education is.

I just don't get why it's not abolished, or at least cut down, especially the atheletic events, which have nothing to do with academics. That would save a lot of money.

I think free-market education and no laws surrounding it would be a lot better. There's too much stuff you don't learn and too much stuff you'll never need that you're taught. And you have to take the unnecessary shit. And when there are discipline problems, as the article points out, the whole class, sometimes even the whole school, has to sit through them.

And finally, there are people who don't need to be in school anyway. No more than half of my graduating class went to college. They expel more people than they graduate in Richmond City Public Schools.

So why isn't public education abolished or at least made not mandatory? Are there some benefits I'm not seeing or what?

Kid, go back to your 360 and enjoy the rest of the summer because come September you'll be back in that classroom like it or not.

 

[dawp]

Shouldn't you being on my ignore list keep me from seeing your threads?

nope, just his post. I have a couple on my ignore list that post frequent inane threads, i still see them but if i look at the thread, their posts are blocked.

 

[William Gaatjes]

It is true schools need to be reformed.
I can see it in other western countries as well, that there is a definite decline of quality. Constant cut backs on schools and colleges. Bigger classes, more children or adolescents, less teachers. Increasing burden upon the teachers. Simplifying the lessons by shortening the time and not going deep into the matter. It is a steady decline for 2 maybe 3 decades now. That must really change because there is definitely something wrong when twitter becomes more important then the lesson (to name 1 example). I can fully understand that not everyone is cut out to be the best technician possible. But i can not imagine that when you show people something interesting and explaining how it work , you cannot get them excited. I do not think the Dirk Diggler's (Eddy Adams) of the world are born, but are created by dis-functional families and sensitive children.

 

[Greenman]

Lots of projection and nay-saying in that.

Doing well in school often has more to do with interest than aptitude. For some kids, reading Great Expectations is interesting and rewarding, while for others it's boring and sucks desperately. For some, crafting a term paper is rewarding, for others equally intelligent, it's misery, and they'd rather be working in a physical medium.

Skilled tradesmen often earn more than theoretically better educated pencil pushers, rightfully so. They actually do things that matter, make people's lives better, create and maintain the private structure and public infrastructure we all take for granted.

Not that your hubris would allow you to see that, let alone accept it...

That was a pretty good shot, but you missed because I'm one of those skilled tradesmen.
My point was that there will be disparity between the different ethnic groups. While that difference is almost entirely cultural, it does exist.
What we'll end up with is a system every bit as fucked up as the education system we have now. There will be no discipline in the schools, equal outcome will still be required, self esteem will still be given more priority than education.