Should you be compensated for the GTX 970 issues and spec changes?

[3DVagabond]

geforce.com forum
hardforum

Original Geforce forum post

Hey,

First, I want you to know that I'm not just a mod, I work for NVIDIA in Santa Clara.

I totally get why so many people are upset. We messed up some of the stats on the reviewer kit and we didn't properly explain the memory architecture. I realize a lot of you guys rely on product reviews to make purchase decisions and we let you down.

It sucks because we're really proud of this thing. The GTX970 is an amazing card and I genuinely believe it's the best card for the money that you can buy. We're working on a driver update that will tune what's allocated where in memory to further improve performance.

Having said that, I understand that this whole experience might have turned you off to the card. If you don't want the card anymore you should return it and get a refund or exchange. If you have any problems getting that done, let me know and I'll do my best to help.

--Peter

Edited post

Hey,

First, I want you to know that I'm not just a mod, I work for NVIDIA in Santa Clara.

The GTX 970 is an amazing card and I genuinely believe it's the best card for the money that you can buy. The GTX970 performs exactly as it was designed to, check out this Anandtech link which has a nice description of how the memory system works.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/8935/g...ory-allocation

Also, I understand that some of you are upset about the error in the reviewer guide. I apologize for that and can assure you that we have taken steps to ensure it doesn’t happen again.

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/nvi...ons,28464.html

I realize that you may be looking for other options with your retailers and board manufacturers. If you need help, let me know.

UPDATE: Since there was some confusion, I updated this post to clarify my comments about drivers, other options and added some relative links.


--Peter

Sounds like there's been a change of heart at nVidia and they aren't going to do anything. I can't believe they were sending people to the retailer or AIB partner to begin with. They didn't make up the false info it was nVidia.

 

[Eymar]

Another nice reference, Elixer. This adds to the fire that the marketing mistake reason is BS as 660ti was specifically designed to use 2GB for marketing reasons so the same question to go 3.5 GB or 4GB with 970 was probably influenced by marketing as well.

 

[DrDoug]

Original Geforce forum post


Edited post


Sounds like there's been a change of heart at nVidia and they aren't going to do anything. I can't believe they were sending people to the retailer or AIB partner to begin with. They didn't make up the false info it was nVidia.

The original post was probably fired off before one of Nvivia's attorneys gave the OK for it. Since that statement could indemnify Nvidia and could be interpreted as an admission of deception, the attorneys probably had them pull that wording out. Same with the initial announcement of a driver that would focus on the 970 to improve its performance. That could be taken as another admission of fault and I'm sure the same attorneys probably had them pull that statement too.

Right now it is better for Nvidia to fudge and stonewall than to admit to any potential misleading of buyers regarding the real specifications of the card. Yes, the 970 is a hell of a performer and there is no doubt about that, but Nvidia released false information about the hardware and no clarification on how the memory functioned. The performance doesn't excuse those omissions.

Money talks and Nvidia, like any company, is in this to make money. Right now, silence is gold(en) for them.

 

[darkfalz]

I guess that last 512MB is essentially like an on-board shared PCI-E memory, slightly faster. So I suppose at least it won't chew your ram. Textures don't need ridiculous bandwidth anyway. Very glad I forked out the premium for the 980 though (well, until the Ti comes out when I'll probably feel a bit butthurt).

 

[Subyman]

Moderator over at MSI forum belittles anandtech:

At this time, MSI has not released a response, not even to us moderators.

As soon as we have one, we will report accordingly.

But at this time, we have nothing to add at this time.

The Anandtech article is very good. And it makes a number of great points. But Anandtech has fallen since the departure of Anand himself. The technical know-how just isn't there anymore.

https://forum-en.msi.com/index.php?topic=252796.0

Says anandtech's article is good, but then says anandtech do not know what they are talking about anymore. Anandtech's article was critical of nvidia's scheme, so it seems even the AIB manufacturers are slinging a little mud around.

Luckily, I bought from Amazon and depending on how things go, I may try to return the cards out of principle. A show of good faith on nvidia's part is all I need, some sort of compensation not trying to sweep it under the rug or belittle those that write critically about it.

 

[Silverforce11]

they will need to get to: 970 x3 and/or resolution beyond 1440p to "possibly" be affected by this spec change.

It's a problem at 1080p in games that have ultra textures: Skyrim with mods, Arma 3, Shadow of Mordor. Its a problem in Dying Light, where users at 1080p without 4gb must set textures from high -> medium or have more texture pop in and stutters.

Users with 1440p on single and SLI setups complaint about stutters.

It's not a 4K issue. It's an issue anytime games load above 3.5gb and need it.

Moving forward, as we've seen with recent titles that push vram, it will be a more common problem at 1080p. Unless you believe developers who make games for consoles don't want to take advantage of the large vram buffer available.

 

[garagisti]

@UaVaj
That person is indeed running something lower than 4k with 2, and he's seeing a fair bit of stutter. Also, there are games that can use resources for various things, like draw distance etc., like in a lot of modern games, then there's beyond earth. Surely I'd be willing to accommodate a bit if I make a decision actively, but in this case decision was taken away from customers by Nvidia. Mind that things which I mentioned right now about draw distance etc., they will be affected even on a single card, and will get worse with more cards and higher resolution.

 

[garagisti]

Moderator over at MSI forum belittles anandtech:



https://forum-en.msi.com/index.php?topic=252796.0

Says anandtech's article is good, but then says anandtech do not know what they are talking about anymore. Anandtech's article was critical of nvidia's scheme, so it seems even the AIB manufacturers are slinging a little mud around.

Luckily, I bought from Amazon and depending on how things go, I may try to return the cards out of principle. A show of good faith on nvidia's part is all I need, some sort of compensation not trying to sweep it under the rug or belittle those that write critically about it.

MSI recently started a promotion for selling a million Nvidia chips, with special green edition cards. I wonder if aib's are being 'asked' to make public statement. Then again, it could be just that they have chips to move, and they're just frustrated. Shame though, I guess I will not be recommending MSI till I know better, and their lightning 29ox was something I was eying.

 

[Timorous]

If you live in the UK you are covered by the sale of goods act. Many retailers though are sticking with the Nvidia line that it was not mis-advertised however their reasoning is that they 1) never advertised the ROP count or the L2 Cache count on retailer listings and 2) the card does have 4GB of ram attached to the GPU.

The tack to take in the UK though is to say that while the card does have 4GB of ram and is on a 256 bit bus the configuration of this is non standard and that this non standard configuration has performance issues relative to a standard configuration when approaching the VRAM limit. As the card is advertised in such a way as to imply it is a standard configuration it means it is misleading advertising and is in breach of the Sale of Goods act 1979.

If a retailer in the UK refuses to accept a refund on your card should you want one then take it to trading standards. You can also issue a chargeback from your bank or credit card and give the retailer a time and date you are available so they can arrange collection of the product.

As an example of a mis-leading advert the issue of price is used. In the UK we have VAT which is a sale tax and is applied to goods. These goods are either advertised ex VAT or inc VAT, however, if you were to advertise a product and not specify that the price was ex VAT and then have a customer come in to pay the advertised price, informing them at that time that the price was ex VAT would make your advertising misleading as it made no mention of that fact and the default for consumer advertising is to display the price including VAT. This same principle would apply to the 970 memory configuration as the adverts or the product description make no mention of its non standard configuration.

 

[cmdrdredd]

Moderator over at MSI forum belittles anandtech:



https://forum-en.msi.com/index.php?topic=252796.0

Says anandtech's article is good, but then says anandtech do not know what they are talking about anymore. Anandtech's article was critical of nvidia's scheme, so it seems even the AIB manufacturers are slinging a little mud around.

Luckily, I bought from Amazon and depending on how things go, I may try to return the cards out of principle. A show of good faith on nvidia's part is all I need, some sort of compensation not trying to sweep it under the rug or belittle those that write critically about it.

MSI won't do anything unless forced and even then they'll sit on their hands as long as possible, probably same with Asus. They aren't in the same league as EVGA when it comes to things like this. I remember when the GTX 670 released and EVGA had a reference model, a superclocked model, and a FTW model at launch. Buyers of the SC would get driver resets and crashes, games locking up etc. Turns out there was a bad batch of cards and they had to do a voluntary recall. Anyone with an SC could contact them and RMA the card in exchange for a FTW model which was clocked higher and came with the more robust GTX 680 PCB and cooler(minus vapor chamber). You just had to pay for shipping but you got a card that was a good $30+ more expensive shipped back to you.

 

[skipsneeky2]

I kept seeing the canned responses to the whole 3.5gb when i was checking reviews on the Msi Gaming 970 cards on Newegg.People of course rightfully explaining their frustration and the canned response from Msi simply telling them what they already know.

Bothered the hell out of me,its like buying a 12 pack of coke but pretty much getting 2 cans with just carbonated water but when you you complain you get told"its a 12 pack of something to drink,so just enjoy".:sneaky:

I admire Evga and their support team,they are in a class of their own always looking to rectify and resolve issues.Matthew even came in this very forum once to simply answer a question i asked about a Evga GTX560.:thumbsup:

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2221861&highlight= Thread Matt took the time to come into,his post is #8

 

[utahraptor]

The retraction of the intention to try to improve the memory performance via drivers is now official: https://twitter.com/NVIDIAGeForce/status/560878957554569216

 

[Ichigo]

I kept seeing the canned responses to the whole 3.5gb when i was checking reviews on the Msi Gaming 970 cards on Newegg.People of course rightfully explaining their frustration and the canned response from Msi simply telling them what they already know.

Bothered the hell out of me,its like buying a 12 pack of coke but pretty much getting 2 cans with just carbonated water but when you you complain you get told"its a 12 pack of something to drink,so just enjoy".:sneaky:

I admire Evga and their support team,they are in a class of their own always looking to rectify and resolve issues.Matthew even came in this very forum once to simply answer a question i asked about a Evga GTX560.:thumbsup:

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2221861&highlight= Thread Matt took the time to come into,his post is #8

Compared to getting a real 12-pack of coke it's the same if you wanted to drink less than 10 cans and either way you don't have enough if you wanted more than 12. The amount of coke is exactly the same as the day you bought and we're still proud of the best 12-pack of carbonated beverage we've ever made.

 

[Cloudfire777]

Nvidia should at best offer a free game bundle or something for GTX 970 owners.
The card still have 4GB VRAM (3.5+0.5) and several recent reviews found nothing wrong with the card over 3.5GB usage across 4-5 games.

But the ROP count was wrong from Nvidia. It doesnt have 64ROPs but 56.

 

[Pinstripe]

Breaking: Nvidia engineer speaks out

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spZJrsssPA0

Thread crapping will not be tolerated here.
-Rvenger

 

[EightySix Four]

Compared to getting a real 12-pack of coke it's the same if you wanted to drink less than 10 cans and either way you don't have enough if you wanted more than 12. The amount of coke is exactly the same as the day you bought and we're still proud of the best 12-pack of carbonated beverage we've ever made.

:thumbsup:

 

[HumblePie]

Pretty tempted to just return my cards as well. I hate when companies pull this shit. I think I am going to email them and tell them I wanted the card I thought I was purchasing when I bought these cards.

 

[skipsneeky2]

Breaking: Nvidia engineer speaks out

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spZJrsssPA0

As horrible as that video is and ironically funny as i got a 970,the people considering switching over to 980 are out of their minds honestly.

Rest of the video is horrible but that 980 part is so true,iv'e been seeing people talking about going for a 980. If people are that upset why would they even contemplate the idea of giving such a company even more money?

I would be buying a 290x without even giving it any thought if i truly wanted 4gb.

 

[WelshBloke]

Breaking: Nvidia engineer speaks out

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spZJrsssPA0

Wow, Jen-Hsun Huang has let himself go. Must be the stress.

 

[jackstar7]

Pretty tempted to just return my cards as well. I hate when companies pull this shit. I think I am going to email them and tell them I wanted the card I thought I was purchasing when I bought these cards.

Multi-card owners seem the most likely to be screwed by this, which stinks because you shouldn't be punished for buying more of their products...

 

[HumblePie]

If they are willing to swap my cards out for 980s or make 970s that match the specs I originally purchased for me then I'll go that route. My state provides some pretty decent consumer protection laws and I am willing to use those laws to full effect if need be. Wouldn't be the first time either as I've gone that route and discussed it in the OT forum previously when I had a company try to screw me over for a purchase I made.

 

[cmdrdredd]

I have weighed the pros and cons of returning cards. The only suitable replacement for me would be a pair of 980s but that would cost me an extra $410 plus shipping. I am unwilling to pay that at this time. I bought a bunch of stuff for another hobby of mine just this week. None of this will likely affect me until the cards are EOL anyway. B&H said they would issue an RMA for credit if I wanted though so I have the option, I don't think I would be happy with a single 980 though and I am not going to switch to 290x because of some of the games I play being gameworks titles and that plays a role in my decision.

I think the issue is overblown for a majority of cases. Some of the scenarios where it becomes a problem aren't really what I consider playable even on a pair of 980s or 290x. So I disregard that stuff a bit.

 

[superxero044]

If they are willing to swap my cards out for 980s or make 970s that match the specs I originally purchased for me then I'll go that route. My state provides some pretty decent consumer protection laws and I am willing to use those laws to full effect if need be. Wouldn't be the first time either as I've gone that route and discussed it in the OT forum previously when I had a company try to screw me over for a purchase I made.

Make sure you leave reviews pointing out how you feel. If you find a way to request an refund, make sure to post back here.

 

[Pneumothorax]

Multi-card owners seem the most likely to be screwed by this, which stinks because you shouldn't be punished for buying more of their products...

I already put my money where my mouth is and returned almost $1000 in 970 MSI cards. I do feel for the retailers/AIB's as they're going to probably eat all of it like HP did in the last decade with bump gate. I have 1x290 for my son's rig and 2x290x for mine and it's going to cost me less than 2x970 lol. Even when the 390x comes out I stand to not lose much in depreciation as when high-end vid cards depreciate down to the $200 mark, it majorly slows down as the new low-mid range cards can't compete with them in performance...

What's ironic is that I'm actually getting a performance upgrade @ 1600P in DAI/BF4....

 

[tential]

MSI recently started a promotion for selling a million Nvidia chips, with special green edition cards. I wonder if aib's are being 'asked' to make public statement. Then again, it could be just that they have chips to move, and they're just frustrated. Shame though, I guess I will not be recommending MSI till I know better, and their lightning 29ox was something I was eying.

That's one lone moderator's opinion. MSI hasn't given an official statement to even those moderators so I wouldn't hold it against MSI.

As horrible as that video is and ironically funny as i got a 970,the people considering switching over to 980 are out of their minds honestly.

Rest of the video is horrible but that 980 part is so true,iv'e been seeing people talking about going for a 980. If people are that upset why would they even contemplate the idea of giving such a company even more money?

I would be buying a 290x without even giving it any thought if i truly wanted 4gb.

The best part about Nvidia over the last 6-7 years is even when they make a mistake, it somehow just equates to their consumers throwing even MORE money at them.

I have weighed the pros and cons of returning cards. The only suitable replacement for me would be a pair of 980s but that would cost me an extra $410 plus shipping. I am unwilling to pay that at this time. I bought a bunch of stuff for another hobby of mine just this week. None of this will likely affect me until the cards are EOL anyway. B&H said they would issue an RMA for credit if I wanted though so I have the option, I don't think I would be happy with a single 980 though and I am not going to switch to 290x because of some of the games I play being gameworks titles and that plays a role in my decision.

I think the issue is overblown for a majority of cases. Some of the scenarios where it becomes a problem aren't really what I consider playable even on a pair of 980s or 290x. So I disregard that stuff a bit.

Tri-SLI?