Should women protect themselves from rape

[Knowing]

Why not?

What other word would you use to describe a collection of movements and ideologies aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, cultural, and social rights for women?

If their intent was to achieve parity with men, I'd call them egalitarians.

Since their aim is instead to deconstruct masculinity and "male privilege" while at all times maintaining or expanding female privilege they're called feminists.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

If their intent was to achieve parity with men, I'd call them egalitarians.

Since their aim is instead to deconstruct masculinity and "male privilege" while at all times maintaining or expanding female privilege they're called feminists.

How exactly do you propose a movement elevate women while simultaneously retaining male privilege? If the sexes are truly equal, male privilege wouldn't exist. Neither would female privilege. That's what equality means.

 

[nehalem256]

How exactly do you propose a movement elevate women while simultaneously retaining male privilege? If the sexes are truly equal, male privilege wouldn't exist. Neither would female privilege. That's what equality means.

The issue is that feminists do nothing to fight against female privilege. That is why they are not for equality.

You won't see feminists complaining that the majority of college students are female. Although you will find them complaining that certain majors are still male dominated.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

The issue is that feminists do nothing to fight against female privilege. That is why they are not for equality.

You won't see feminists complaining that the majority of college students are female. Although you will find them complaining that certain majors are still male dominated.

Maybe if we get all the men out of college, we'll see those date rape statistics plummet!

I don't understand why you guys are so threatened by this. Whenever there's a statistic that comes out that shows that women or minorities have increased their participation in college or the labor force or the wage gap is shrinking or whatever, instead of celebrating the fact that we're legitimately making steps towards a more equal society, you freak out about how unfair it is that your wall of privilege is falling. It's like you realize that if you open the doors to allow more people in, you'll have more competition and you're afraid you won't measure up. Meanwhile, it's just statistics; you're still perfectly capable of going to college or getting a job. The increasing presence of women doesn't prevent you from having access to those things. Get over your fear and get on with your life.

 

[nehalem256]

Maybe if we get all the men out of college, we'll see those date rape statistics plummet!

I don't understand why you guys are so threatened by this. Whenever there's a statistic that comes out that shows that women or minorities have increased their participation in college or the labor force or the wage gap is shrinking or whatever, instead of celebrating the fact that we're legitimately making steps towards a more equal society, you freak out about how unfair it is that your wall of privilege is falling. It's like you realize that if you open the doors to allow more people in, you'll have more competition and you're afraid you won't measure up. Meanwhile, it's just statistics; you're still perfectly capable of going to college or getting a job. The increasing presence of women doesn't prevent you from having access to those things. Get over your fear and get on with your life.

So if men dominate a field its bad. And we need action to change it!

If women dominate a field we should celebrate it!

You don't see how this isn't equality at all?

 

[Knowing]

How exactly do you propose a movement elevate women while simultaneously retaining male privilege? If the sexes are truly equal, male privilege wouldn't exist. Neither would female privilege. That's what equality means.

So what you're saying is that if we support the expansion of female privilege then we'll get equality and female privilege will cease to exist? That's an interesting theory.

Lets do a simple gedankenexperiment. Why don't you tell me how the expansion of female privilege will undo the harm created by the female privilege of the precious female and it's correlating male privilege of the disposable male? After all, women have always been the primary victims of war.

 

[Veliko]

If their intent was to achieve parity with men, I'd call them egalitarians.

Since their aim is instead to deconstruct masculinity and "male privilege" while at all times maintaining or expanding female privilege they're called feminists.

Derpity dibble dop.

 

[mikeymikec]

So a civil rights effort is worthless as long as there is a niche (no matter how small it is) that exists where the otherwise oppressed have the upper hand?

 

[nehalem256]

So a civil rights effort is worthless as long as there is a niche (no matter how small it is) that exists where the otherwise oppressed have the upper hand?

Life expectancy

College graduation rates

reproductive rights

divorce courts

the draft

incarceration rates

are "niches"?D:

 

[Texashiker]

So a civil rights effort is worthless as long as there is a niche (no matter how small it is) that exists where the otherwise oppressed have the upper hand?

Something like 80% of the people in jail for not paying child support are men.

Something like 90% - 96% of people who work dangerous jobs, jobs away from home, are men.

I have yet to see feminist demand more women be put in jail for not paying child support.

 

[mikeymikec]

Life expectancy

I love that you cite this one first; it re-affirms my opinion of you for the umpteenth time. The one thing that isn't the fault of a man or a woman, yet it's the first thing on your list that women should be campaigning for to change in order for you to see their struggle as legitimate.

College graduation rates

Are the result of intentional discrimination in favour of women?

reproductive rights

You have some mind-bogglingly crazy opinions on this topic so I'm simply going to skip past this one.

divorce courts

the draft

I'm going to be arguing at a disadvantage on this one as the US is very different to the UK (as I understand it), but I think it's a fair assumption that both have reached this list due to men's preconceptions of gender roles which mostly work against women, e.g. "women are supposed to be home makers" and "the front line is no place for a woman".

incarceration rates

US/UK, I have no idea what you're referring to.

are "niches"?D:

Do you want to give thought to the many ways that women are disriminated against, then measure it against this list?

 

[mikeymikec]

Something like 80% of the people in jail for not paying child support are men.

Something like 90% - 96% of people who work dangerous jobs, jobs away from home, are men.

I have yet to see feminist demand more women be put in jail for not paying child support.

I don't see how this is a logical response to my question. I think your response is "yes", but there's not really any logic to your response to justify your opinion.

 

[Texashiker]

I don't see how this is a logical response to my question.

You said "small niche where the opposed have the upper hand."

There is no "small "niche", there is a gaping hole where women have the upper hand. Everything from hiring minorities to family court is tilted in favor of women.

 

[nehalem256]

I love that you cite this one first; it re-affirms my opinion of you for the umpteenth time. The one thing that isn't the fault of a man or a woman, yet it's the first thing on your list that women should be campaigning for to change in order for you to see their struggle as legitimate.

Have you compared health spending on men and women?

Are the result of intentional discrimination in favour of women?

No more than the fact that men dominate STEM fields. But yet you will see feminists complaining about that.

You have some mind-bogglingly crazy opinions on this topic so I'm simply going to skip past this one.

Equality is "mind-bogglingly crazy" :hmm:

I'm going to be arguing at a disadvantage on this one as the US is very different to the UK (as I understand it), but I think it's a fair assumption that both have reached this list due to men's preconceptions of gender roles which mostly work against women, e.g. "women are supposed to be home makers" and "the front line is no place for a woman".

US/UK, I have no idea what you're referring to.

90% of prisoners are male.

Since you are in the UK:

Women should not be sent to prison and should instead serve community sentences, according to a new report by the Women's Justice Taskforce.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-13666066

Do you want to give thought to the many ways that women are disriminated against, then measure it against this list?

 

[mikeymikec]

You said "small niche where the opposed have the upper hand."

There is no "small "niche", there is a gaping hole where women have the upper hand. Everything from hiring minorities to family court is tilted in favor of women.

What is "everything from hiring minorities to family court" exactly? Do I put the two in order alphabetically and then assume that you mean everything in between?

How about a personal anecdote about how you've been oppressed by women?

 

[mikeymikec]

Have you compared health spending on men and women?

I'm in the UK, we have the NHS, so no. I think womens' bodies are physiologically a bit more complicated than mens', so it wouldn't surprise me if healthcare for women was a bit more expensive than for men. Is this something that women should be campaigning about? "Make our bodies less complicated so we can have equality"?

No more than the fact that men dominate STEM fields. But yet you will see feminists complaining about that.

You just dodged a question.

90% of prisoners are male.

And? Women should be campaigning that more women should be incarcerated simply so the numbers can be equal?

Since you are in the UK:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-13666066

So what's your point?

 

[Texashiker]

How about a personal anecdote about how you've been oppressed by women?

The fact that I was milked for child support for 14 years while my ex-wife was not required to provide for the children.

 

[nehalem256]

I'm in the UK, we have the NHS, so no. I think womens' bodies are physiologically a bit more complicated than mens', so it wouldn't surprise me if healthcare for women was a bit more expensive than for men. Is this something that women should be campaigning about? "Make our bodies less complicated so we can have equality"?

Well or campaigning to spend more money on research for men's health issues.

What is equal about spending more money on healthcare for women when men die sooner?

You just dodged a question.

Feminists don't seem to care about intentional discrimination. So why should I?

And? Women should be campaigning that more women should be incarcerated simply so the numbers can be equal?

That would seem to be feminist logic. Find an area where men and women are not equal. Ignore any rational reason why this might be the case and say something needs to be done about it.

So what's your point?

Well they certainly shouldn't be campaigning for keeping women out of prison when men would go to prison for the same crime.

 

[Knowing]

Derpity dibble dop.

Neato. Perhaps you can explain how this jibberish is going to move the conversation forward toward productive ends?

 

[nehalem256]

How about a personal anecdote about how you've been oppressed by women?

Well if men looking at a woman = oppression

Then I think we could "reasonably" define any woman turning a man down for a date as oppression :sneaky:

EDIT: As a sidenote perhaps that explains how a black man could shoot himself while hand cuffed

 

[mikeymikec]

The fact that I was milked for child support for 14 years while my ex-wife was not required to provide for the children.

I would ask for particulars as your story doesn't make much sense, but I'm more interested in the fact that you've attempted to dodge the first question I asked.

 

[mikeymikec]

Well or campaigning to spend more money on research for men's health issues.

What is equal about spending more money on healthcare for women when men die sooner?

"Well or?"

Is this due to discrimination against men?

Are you honestly saying that you can't think of any more pressing issues in terms of gender equality than these examples? Would you expect an organisation campaigning for equal rights to start with the most pressing issues, is that a logical way forward in your opinion?

Feminists don't seem to care about intentional discrimination. So why should I?

Keep dodging the question.

That would seem to be feminist logic. Find an area where men and women are not equal. Ignore any rational reason why this might be the case and say something needs to be done about it.

Except that's precisely what you've done with regard to prison population percentages by gender.

Well they certainly shouldn't be campaigning for keeping women out of prison when men would go to prison for the same crime.

Since there's very little information in the article (or linked to it), there's very little to draw any conclusions from, so I don't see how you can use this to aid your argument. The article is dated 2011 and I haven't heard of any prisons closing.

However, one part of the article that I agree with (at least at face value) is this:

Fiona Cannon, chairwoman of the taskforce, said: "Instead of a punishment of last resort, women's prisons are now seen as stop-gap providers of drug detox, social care, mental health assessment and treatment and temporary housing - a refuge for those who have slipped through the net of local services.

Prison is the punishment of last resort in the UK. If it isn't effective for a portion of offenders, then alternatives should be found. That's about the only conclusion I can draw from it.

 

[nehalem256]

"Well or?"

Is this due to discrimination against men?

Are you honestly saying that you can't think of any more pressing issues in terms of gender equality than these examples? Would you expect an organisation campaigning for equal rights to start with the most pressing issues, is that a logical way forward in your opinion?

Keep dodging the question.

Except that's precisely what you've done with regard to prison population percentages by gender.

What intentional discrimination against women exists in 2014 in any western country?

Since there's very little information in the article (or linked to it), there's very little to draw any conclusions from, so I don't see how you can use this to aid your argument. The article is dated 2011 and I haven't heard of any prisons closing.

However, one part of the article that I agree with (at least at face value) is this:

Prison is the punishment of last resort in the UK. If it isn't effective for a portion of offenders, then alternatives should be found. That's about the only conclusion I can draw from it.

So in other words you are defending not sending women to prison. Sounds like you support intentional discrimination against men.

 

[nehalem256]

Are you honestly saying that you can't think of any more pressing issues in terms of gender equality than these examples? Would you expect an organisation campaigning for equal rights to start with the most pressing issues, is that a logical way forward in your opinion?

So men dying isn't a pressing issue?

And of course you can sit there and laugh that there are perfectly rational explanations for everything I list.

But guess what there are perfectly rational explanations for why women make less then pay(such as for example working less hours).

Yet that doesn't stop the White House from pushing actual legislation based on that bullshit

Did You Know That Women Are Still Paid Less Than Men?


On average, full-time working women earn just 77 cents for every dollar a man earns. This significant gap is more than a statistic -- it has real life consequences. When women, who make up nearly half the workforce, bring home less money each day, it means they have less for the everyday needs of their families, and over a lifetime of work, far less savings for retirement.

President Obama supports passage of the Paycheck Fairness Act, a comprehensive and commonsense bill that updates and strengthens the Equal Pay Act of 1963, which made it illegal for employers to pay unequal wages to men and women who perform substantially equal work.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/equal-pay/career

 

[mikeymikec]

What intentional discrimination against women exists in 2014 in any western country?

You need to ask this question, really?

Pay gap by gender in the US:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male%E2%80%93female_income_disparity_in_the_United_States

50 fun facts about sexual harrassment in the US military:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/soraya-chemaly/military-sexual-assault-facts_b_4281704.html

91% chance in the US that the person being raped is a woman:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics#United_States

Woman driven from her home for speaking out against gender inequality:
http://games.slashdot.org/story/14/...of-tropes-vs-women-driven-from-home-by-trolls

What do you suppose the chances are of a man being abused based on his gender online:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/p...tter-troll-who-called-her-a-slut-9695355.html

A point that I think anyone would honestly find very difficult to deny - women who sleep with many men are a lot more likely to be regarded negatively (e.g. "slut", "slag", "village bike", etc) whereas men who have slept with many women are a lot more likely to be regarded positively (e.g. "stud", "experienced").

Why do you suppose that the vast majority of modern pop music where the lyrics are about sex, that male singers are referring to how many women/sexual objects they've had and/or can get, and the female singers are talking about how great a sexual object they are? Does that sound like a culture where respect regardless of gender has been reached?

Female actors are commonly asked questions which point towards women being eye candy, an amusing turn-around of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlW-aHC8KdI

More stupid, shallow questions for female actresses:
http://blogs.indiewire.com/womenand...lett-johansson-tired-of-sexist-diet-questions

Women aren't sexual objects, honest:

How many females in video games have been depicted as obvious sexual objects, compared to men?
http://kotaku.com/thirteen-types-of-ridiculous-female-armor-in-mmorpgs-507570131

I can continue researching, but someone who isn't totally and utterly blinkered from misogyny in modern society wouldn't need me to.

So in other words you are defending not sending women to prison. Sounds like you support intentional discrimination against men.

No, I support drawing conclusions based on actual evidence. You drew a conclusion that the report's findings were anti men despite there being very little data to draw such a conclusion.