irishScott
Lifer
- Oct 10, 2006
- 21,562
- 3
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So maybe some gender specific psychological training is in order. Once again, as long as they can perform as well as men psychologically and physically (the latter being the main barrier), I see no problem.
But we all know that in a dire situation, training doesn't help your mind. For example, people are trained to not eat other humans but in a dire situation, I would (and I'm sure others would) even though right now, I don't think I could do it.
RedCOMET
Platinum Member
- Jul 8, 2002
- 2,836
- 0
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Its interesting that we talk about women doing this stuff... and just think, 50-70 years ago, it would have been the same discussion except that instead of women being invovled in these elite units/ or in the same units as men, it would have been talking about black men and white men fighting in these same units. Boy, do times change.
As long as everyone is clear that having physical standards that most women cannot meet does not equal discrimination against women, then I'm completely OK with it. If they can pass the same standards used on the men then go for it.
What we don't need are separate standards for women and men just so we can have some women in those positions. This goes for any public safety type position - Police, fire, military/guard, whatever.
Viper GTS
What we don't need are separate standards for women and men just so we can have some women in those positions. This goes for any public safety type position - Police, fire, military/guard, whatever.
Viper GTS
No, I don't. It's purely reflex at this point. In fact one of these days when I'm not paying attention I'm going to sign a work e-mail with that. Now THAT will be embarassing.
Viper GTS
SarcasticDwarf
Diamond Member
- Jun 8, 2001
- 9,574
- 2
- 76
There is one key difference here:
The differences between race are not physical beyond skin color (there is variation, but it is not really that significant). The only real difference you can argue is the different mentality caused by being brought up a different way.
The differences between the gender are both physical and mental. I say mental here in the sense that like the above the genders are raised differently. The physical aspect is where the problem is. In general, women tend to be less physical agressive than men, and that IS a problem in combat. For more on this see my earlier post.
Even if we assume (for the sake of argument) that men and women come out of the training with identical mental responses the fact remains that on average men are bigger and stronger than women.
Of course there are exceptions, but simple math is going to dictate that there will be few if any women in those ranks if the tests are equal.
Viper GTS
The big deal breaker for me when it comes to this subject is the money. It cannot be argued that women being in the military means added costs in order to accommodate their needs. It honestly doesn't bother me much, but I have yet to hear a solid argument that convinces me that the added costs are worth it. I am all for freedom and "equality" but I gotta draw the line somewhere like I do everything and it just seems like such a waste in this case.
Police and SWAT are a bit different. I don't believe it costs that much extra if any at all to allow them into those groups. I could be wrong though.
Police and SWAT are a bit different. I don't believe it costs that much extra if any at all to allow them into those groups. I could be wrong though.
SarcasticDwarf
Diamond Member
- Jun 8, 2001
- 9,574
- 2
- 76
And I agree with you there...but there are two things to consider. First, what are the standards? The standards for the military are actually not all that high (anyone in *good* shape with no medical conditions can pass). So quite a few women who have not had children qualify.
The second issue is with political correctness. While some, even many women are physically and mentally capable, that percentage is far lower than that of men. Given that, it has traditionally been easier to deny ALL women because there constant lawsuits and political flack for gender discrimination. I am not saying it is right or wrong, only that there is a strong argument for both sides.
irishScott
Lifer
- Oct 10, 2006
- 21,562
- 3
- 0
Ummm... what? Let's do an experiment. We'll take a trained marine, and some average joe off the street. Put them in the same dire situation with the same equipment.
The average joe would probably be shitting his pants, get behind cover, and cower there as long as possible. I'd imagine the marine would have an easier time neutralizing the threat, as well as thinking more clearly. I doubt that solely due to physical training.
I agree. Not all men become all "aggressive" when someone yells at them. Most won't say antyhing back. Stop pretending that all males are mega-raging dominating rambos. Training makes huge difference.
You need to pursue female friends outside of your "club chick" circle. Just like there are guys out there who would weep if they broke a nail , there are chicks out there who can stand and excel in the harshness of combat environments.
If they can pass the same requirements as a man, then sure I think the SWAT team is ok.
However, and call me old-fashioned, but I don't think women belong in combat. Military service is fine, but front line combat should be a male-only business.
However, and call me old-fashioned, but I don't think women belong in combat. Military service is fine, but front line combat should be a male-only business.
datalink7
Lifer
- Jan 23, 2001
- 16,765
- 6
- 81
Well, first off, Marines aren't "the first ones put into a hostile country." Don't know where you heard that.
Being in the Infantry, I would say that Females would complicate things quite a bit. I don't know if we are ready as a society to make such a step. It would be different in the civilian world. SWAT should allow anyone who is capable, in my opinion.
Being in the Infantry, I would say that Females would complicate things quite a bit. I don't know if we are ready as a society to make such a step. It would be different in the civilian world. SWAT should allow anyone who is capable, in my opinion.
That's the problem. Often they try to get those requirements drastically lowered so they can get in.
I heard about female firemen who complained to get the strength requirements lowered. The requirements were there to ensure that every member of the group could lift commonly used equipment. The women said that was sexist because women don't have the upper body strength that men have.
That doesn't change the weight of the equipment, though, and it still has to be lifted. Sadly the department caved in.
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