Should the US defend Taiwan with military force?

[maluckey1]

Actually, I find the bolded section above to be exactly what transpired when the N. American colonies broke away from England to form their own country...because they wanted their "freedom," whatever that means.

You are correct.

Taiwan should forge their own independence just like the colonies. No country volunteered to fight in order to assist the colonies against England. They were willing to sell arms and supplies to the rebellious colonists.

The colonies went to war, until there wasn't anybody left (England, France, Spain,, aboriginals etc.) and then attacked each other to cement their country. War is what the U.S. does, and they do it better in person than by proxy.

 

[rommelrommel]

You are correct.

Taiwan should forge their own independence just like the colonies. No country volunteered to fight in order to assist the colonies against England. They were willing to sell arms and supplies to the rebellious colonists.

The colonies went to war, until there wasn't anybody left (England, France, Spain,, aboriginals etc.) and then attacked each other to cement their country. War is what the U.S. does, and they do it better in person than by proxy.

They didn’t fight the French you dunce, the French actually fought along side them.

 

[VW MAN]

You are correct.

Taiwan should forge their own independence just like the colonies. No country volunteered to fight in order to assist the colonies against England. They were willing to sell arms and supplies to the rebellious colonists.

The colonies went to war, until there wasn't anybody left (England, France, Spain,, aboriginals etc.) and then attacked each other to cement their country. War is what the U.S. does, and they do it better in person than by proxy.

Someone is very ignorant of US history.

"A Treaty of Alliance between the French and the Continental Army followed in 1778, which led to French money, matériel and troops being sent to the United States. An ignition of a global war with Britain started shortly thereafter. Subsequently, Spain and the Dutch Republic also began to send assistance, which, along with other political developments in Europe, left the British with no allies during the conflict (excluding the Hessians). Spain openly declared war in 1779, and war between British and Dutch followed soon after."

Source - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fra... help was a major,and independence in the war.

 

[Torn Mind]

I've begun to wonder how much oppression, coercion, mis-information, 'education' is applied by the Taiwan government (which is not officially recognized by many countries) to keep the populace from wanting to re-unify with China.

What is with the fetish about other countries not officially recognizing Taiwan as a country being relevant to how they conduct business and government there? The de facto conduct of their government and business is in complete separation from the Communist Party. The CCP cannot take tax revenue from them nor round up people



The first thing Westerners need to realize is that as an ethnicity, Chinese-speakers are not particularly strong nationalists. But they are mercenary and will answer in a two-faced manner to not rock the waters. The phrase 兩面三刀(liang mian san dao) reflects that fact. The third element is that selling out principles for money is pretty much par the course. If someone wants to reunify with the CCP, it's because they've got money to make or are making.
And the fourth thing is there is rarely a dumb Asian nationalist because the culture values education, both in practical savvy and formal education. So you will not find the foolish hillbilly anywhere.

Chinese is an "ethnicity" in the Western language, thus leading to the false assumption that there is a unified language and culture. In actuality, what appears as a ethnic Chinese are a bunch of separate ethnic identities and languages divided by region and language(dialects are not the equivalent of Deep South English and English elsewhere. People of two different regions would be the equivalent of an English and French speaker trying to comprehend each other.) The CCP did their best to purge these little enclaves of divided culture and were mostly successful since there is no resistance. If English Canada mandated no French language or culture in Quebec, that's pretty much what the CCP did to the numerous localities in China.

Saying the "Han" is pretty much the equivalent of saying "European" or "white". Vague and broad, and loses the numerous differing languages between people in these categories.

 

[maluckey1]

They didn’t fight the French you dunce, the French actually fought along side them.

Think along the lines of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick. Colonial Privateers were actively attacking those colonies, who were heavily French at the time.

 

[Torn Mind]

They didn’t fight the French you dunce, the French actually fought along side them.

Correct, and it took quite of bit of diplomatic effort from Ben Franklin to get French support, and it ultimately might have destabilized the French regime due to the debt the French took on, then leading to the French Revolution.

 

[Lezunto]

blame the greedy corporations for that shit. Yes, we consumers have been spoiled by "cheaper stuff," but it comes at the loss of millions of American jobs.

THANK YOU!

 

[rommelrommel]

Think along the lines of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick. Colonial Privateers were actively attacking those colonies, who were heavily French at the time.

Uh no they weren't. Lots of french speakers and people of French descent, but they were both British possessions. I thought maybe it's just Chinese history you were a bit ignorant of, but it appears it's history all around.

 

[akugami]

The only legal basis I recognize is the will of the people.
The people of Taiwan are not slaves to be traded and bartered. They belong to no one.

I never claimed them to be slaves and am an advocate for anti-slavery and racial equality. Nowhere did I mention them to be treated like livestock at the market. Please do not even insinuate I am saying such things.

However, I'm playing devil's advocate to the other poster who are claiming there is zero validity to the claim that China has some claim to Taiwan. Again, I am not advocating for such a thing to happen. But just pointing out some who are saying China doesn't have some valid legal claim to the territory. As I stated before, it's a murky situation. There's legitimate arguments both ways.

 

[Jaskalas]

Your argument appears to distinguish between the land and the people.

The issue: that is not recognized. Land belongs to the people on it. Not to some foreign power wanting to invade and destroy those people. They are inseparable and any claim that China owns Taiwan (the land) is ALSO a claim that China owns Taiwan (the people).

Whatever claim China makes on the land is also a claim on the people. It is antithetical to human rights. Which is cause for us to intervene. But again, it is up to the people of Taiwan whether to oppose China's claim or not. But if they do so, the world should back Taiwan. There is no "both ways" about it.

 

[akugami]

Your argument appears to distinguish between the land and the people.

The issue: that is not recognized. Land belongs to the people on it. Not to some foreign power wanting to invade and destroy those people. They are inseparable and any claim that China owns Taiwan (the land) is ALSO a claim that China owns Taiwan (the people).

Whatever claim China makes on the land is also a claim on the people. It is antithetical to human rights. Which is cause for us to intervene. But again, it is up to the people of Taiwan whether to oppose China's claim or not. But if they do so, the world should back Taiwan. There is no "both ways" about it.

Yes. The land and the people are somewhat independent issues, if irrevocably tied together. Just like how from a legal standpoint, China does have a legitimate claim to Taiwan, which is separate from the crimes against humanity the CCP has committed. Again, I must state that I am completely against the crimes against humanity performed by the CCP such as that done to the Uyghurs. I am absolutely against such treatment of any racial or ethnic group.

From the perspective of the CCP, Taiwan is part of China that it lost because of war, both with Japan and a civil war. It would be as if the Confederate States of America had won, and today the north was trying to reunify with the south. I am not sure if that is a 100% good analogy, but that's kind of how the CCP feels.

Personally, I think the world would be better served if all major countries recognized Taiwan as an independent country and be done with it. Dragging this situation out helps no one.

 

[Ajay]

What is with the fetish about other countries not officially recognizing Taiwan as a country being relevant to how they conduct business and government there? The de facto conduct of their government and business is in complete separation from the Communist Party. The CCP cannot take tax revenue from them nor round up people



The first thing Westerners need to realize is that as an ethnicity, Chinese-speakers are not particularly strong nationalists. But they are mercenary and will answer in a two-faced manner to not rock the waters. The phrase 兩面三刀(liang mian san dao) reflects that fact. The third element is that selling out principles for money is pretty much par the course. If someone wants to reunify with the CCP, it's because they've got money to make or are making.
And the fourth thing is there is rarely a dumb Asian nationalist because the culture values education, both in practical savvy and formal education. So you will not find the foolish hillbilly anywhere.

Chinese is an "ethnicity" in the Western language, thus leading to the false assumption that there is a unified language and culture. In actuality, what appears as a ethnic Chinese are a bunch of separate ethnic identities and languages divided by region and language(dialects are not the equivalent of Deep South English and English elsewhere. People of two different regions would be the equivalent of an English and French speaker trying to comprehend each other.) The CCP did their best to purge these little enclaves of divided culture and were mostly successful since there is no resistance. If English Canada mandated no French language or culture in Quebec, that's pretty much what the CCP did to the numerous localities in China.

Saying the "Han" is pretty much the equivalent of saying "European" or "white". Vague and broad, and loses the numerous differing languages between people in these categories.

Thanks for that. When I say 'Han', I'm really pointing out the seaboard provinces, where the most 'wealth' is concentrated and where, according to my understanding, there is concord in the name of sustaining that wealth.

 

[MrSquished]

blame the greedy corporations for that shit. Yes, we consumers have been spoiled by "cheaper stuff," but it comes at the loss of millions of American jobs.

While yes it is true that corporations ran to China to make more money not giving two shits about American laborers, the issue runs deeper than that. It is the American system itself. Capitalism is venerated and anything that may run counter to that, such as higher wages or more benefits or a shorter workweek or family leave is labeled evil and communist and socialist by one of the two major parties.

If it was truly just the corporations fault and the whole country was united that this was wrong and we should try to fix it, that's one situation - but when a huge chunk of the country, including all of one party and part of the other, only believe in the profits of the corporations and nothing else, well this is what happens.

 

[hal2kilo]

While yes it is true that corporations ran to China to make more money not giving two shits about American laborers, the issue runs deeper than that. It is the American system itself. Capitalism is venerated and anything that may run counter to that, such as higher wages or more benefits or a shorter workweek or family leave is labeled evil and communist and socialist by one of the two major parties.

If it was truly just the corporations fault and the whole country was united that this was wrong and we should try to fix it, that's one situation - but when a huge chunk of the country, including all of one party and part of the other, only believe in the profits of the corporations and nothing else, well this is what happens.

But, who do you think plants these ideas in the unwashed.

 

[rommelrommel]

But, who do you think plants these ideas in the unwashed.

The rich of course, and also a lot of evangelicals give the same message.

 

[Brainonska511]

The rich of course, and also a lot of evangelicals give the same message.

Neocalvinism - good things happen to good people, bad things happen to bad people.

 

[FelixDeCat]

What is with the fetish about other countries not officially recognizing Taiwan as a country being relevant to how they conduct business and government there? The de facto conduct of their government and business is in complete separation from the Communist Party. The CCP cannot take tax revenue from them nor round up people



The first thing Westerners need to realize is that as an ethnicity, Chinese-speakers are not particularly strong nationalists. But they are mercenary and will answer in a two-faced manner to not rock the waters. The phrase 兩面三刀(liang mian san dao) reflects that fact. The third element is that selling out principles for money is pretty much par the course. If someone wants to reunify with the CCP, it's because they've got money to make or are making.
And the fourth thing is there is rarely a dumb Asian nationalist because the culture values education, both in practical savvy and formal education. So you will not find the foolish hillbilly anywhere.

Chinese is an "ethnicity" in the Western language, thus leading to the false assumption that there is a unified language and culture. In actuality, what appears as a ethnic Chinese are a bunch of separate ethnic identities and languages divided by region and language(dialects are not the equivalent of Deep South English and English elsewhere. People of two different regions would be the equivalent of an English and French speaker trying to comprehend each other.) The CCP did their best to purge these little enclaves of divided culture and were mostly successful since there is no resistance. If English Canada mandated no French language or culture in Quebec, that's pretty much what the CCP did to the numerous localities in China.

Saying the "Han" is pretty much the equivalent of saying "European" or "white". Vague and broad, and loses the numerous differing languages between people in these categories.

I had no idea there was this much regional difference in China, thanks for posting.

I did a Google search to get more of an idea of the different varieties of language:



What are Cantonese and Mandarin?

Mandarin and Cantonese are both tonal languages (different tones indicate different words in the same way that pronunciation does). They both belong to the Chinese branch of the Sino-Tibetan language family. They are two clearly differentiated Chinese languages. They are separate sub-branches of Chinese, not merely dialects or local varieties, and they are largely mutually unintelligible.

Mandarin is the majority Chinese language in China (spoken by about 70% of the population). Cantonese is one of about six less-spoken Chinese languages with the same roots in ancient Chinese, including Wu (Shanghainese) and Min (Fujianese), which also each have about 6% of China’s population using them as a first language.

Cantonese vs Mandarin: The 7 Main Differences

Mandarin and Cantonese are different Chinese language sub-branches, not merely dialects. Find out the real differences between Cantonese and Mandarin here.

www.chinahighlights.com

 

[rmacd02]

Part of reparation for WWII was the return of Taiwan to Republic of China.

Cairo Conference - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

.

This is still in effect

Taiwan Relations Act - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

.

Thanks for the clarification. Probably something I should have researched before posting.

 

[akugami]

I apologize to everyone for the long post. I actually typed it up yesterday, but was wondering if I should post it or not.

You haven't. The CCP has never controlled Taiwan. Period. End of discussion. If you want to bring up inhabitants on a timeline, where are the Taiwanese natives? What about the Dutch? Might as well be saying America wants to re-unify with Cuba.

If you want to say that the CCP government has exerted no actual control of Taiwan, I agree with that. But that's ignoring the fact that historically the country of China has had some claims to Taiwan, and the current governing body in China is the CCP. This is not whether you believe the CCP should be the rightful governing body of China. Nor is this a vote for the CCP, and certainly not an agreement with how the CCP operates, but just stating something that would pop up during an argument on whether the CCP has a valid sovereign claim on Taiwan or not. Again, this is most definitely NOT an advocacy of the CCP, nor many of its actions which I view as crimes against humanity.

That's right, they do, but Falun Gong having a nutty guy at the head is what exactly? Conspiracy theories justify persecution? The CCP cracked down on them over fear, subjected them to all manner of abuse, torture and general persecution because they were organized and with zero interest in affiliation with the CCP. A regimen of health promoting exercises with a philosophical syllabus is in no way a reason to be imprisoned, tortured, executed, and/or have your organs sold. If you can't see that as a valid reason/example to have nothing to do with a brutal autocracy, you're just trying to argue for arguments sake because I really doubt you are that stupid.

Here's a relatively recent article from Business Insider on the secretive nature and cultish behavior that takes place inside the Falung Gong compound.

And one from ABC News in Australia.

The facts are the start of Falun Gong started out kooky. Now, can they evolve to legitimacy? Yes. But as it currently stands, there is strong evidence they are a cult.

I also have an issue with your last line. That does not help foster any open discussion. I have no issues with you pointing out why I'm wrong. Agree to disagree, which is fine, but let's leave out borderline personal attacks.

Don't care

So this is regarding my ancestry. If you don't care, it's fine. Thanks? I guess? Because we should never look at someone and be biased against them because of the color of their skin, religion, or other factor.

I can be biased on subjects and my ancestry may color my thoughts. If we're honest with ourselves, every one of us is affected by our past. I've never admitted to being perfect about everything. I've never admitted to being right about everything. I readily admit I may have unconscious biases, and me noting my ancestry is merely to help give the reader an idea of where I'm coming from, because you can't see me since we're merely invisible talking heads on the Internet. It was more an "open disclosure" type comment so you can see where I'm coming from, and me not trying to hide behind the invisibility of the Internet.

Some may appreciate it, some may take it as a way to discount my comments, but I felt like being open about it. Based off your remarks, and a couple others, this leaves me wondering now if that has made you biased against me, based off your comments with borderline personal attacks.

Not really, but it's good to see you recognize blow back.

Not sure what blowback you mean. There was an insult to my intelligence by you. Someone else accused me of being an advocate of slavery. So, regarding my intelligence, I've been known to put my foot in my mouth. But I'm more than willing to engage in open discussions without the need for insults. As far as advocating slavery, I have never done that, and never will. I have posted in other threads against the recent rash of politicians restricting reading materials in our schools and against those who are trying to restrict freedom in America.


Now, if I was outright hostile to you and insulting to you, then fire away. But there is no need to make rude remarks because I have an opposing viewpoint. Sometimes just agree to disagree, and move on.

You don't strike me as a student of military history, sounds like your Chinese heritage is showing in the form of some ego/bravado. You should take your own advice. 70 years ago Arabs were telling people not to kid themselves about the coming destruction of Israel, a country literally surrounded by enemies and with no 'moat.'

I am not, and have never claimed to have knowledge of military history. But just as a layman looking at the military might of China vs a small island like Taiwan, it stands to reason that if China really wanted it that bad, they can and will go in and win. It's like how I find it laughable that N.Korea makes threats to the US, but I am absolutely sure the US would wipe out N.Korea if it really wanted to.

False, there are actually a multitude of reasons why China isn't the omnipotent force you think it is. You really should research this more before trying to opine on it. You could write a book just on what China needs for ASW. Chinese pilots going up against Western pilots? Please.

Again, I speak as a layman, who does not vast research on this subject. I don't think China is omnipotent, but it is potent. I do think the US has a superior army than China.

Perhaps I should clarify that my comment was made with China vs Taiwan. Now, if it was China vs Taiwan + USA, then I would say China will lose.

I guess, it comes down to the US's willingness to defend Taiwan. We're not talking about saber-rattling, and not the cold war we're currently at with China, but actual combat. This is a huge step to take when the US won't even recognize Taiwan as an independent country. If we are willing to go to war to defend Taiwan, then we should bite the bullet and recognize it as an independent country.

And as a note, I think the entire world would benefit more from an open acknowledgment by all countries (with the obvious exception of China), that Taiwan is an independent and officially recognized country. There will be a lot of saber-rattling by China when this happens, but long term, I think it would bring more stability to that region. One of the reasons I believe China can still make such noise is because so far, most of the larger nations such as the US has not been willing to go on record as recognizing Taiwan as an independent country.

Search my posts on China to find out how really out of place this is being directed at me. Hint: you are preaching to the choir

I don't think I will participate in more China related posts. This caught my eye because of the recent uptick in China and Taiwan news in my Flipboard news feed. I do understand some of my comments and opinions may be controversial, but the borderline personal attacks when I stated some of my opinions remind me why I should generally stay away.


I don't mind someone pointing out when I'm wrong, and why I'm wrong, but I will just walk away if there's any sense of personal attacks or hostility. Overt or otherwise. Younger me would have stayed to argue. Older me has other things to worry about.


As much as I find the CCP governing body distasteful, and vehemently disagree with what they do, I will speak my opinions. That doesn't mean everyone agrees with them. But one thing I will do is I will always advocate for the common person living in China, just like I do for minorities living here in the USA. Like people everywhere, they just want to be able to live free and happy lives. Personally, I felt the people of China and even the government as a whole was getting better, more open and having more freedoms, but that was until Xi Jinping took office, and he is pretty much a dictator and a disaster for personal freedom in China.


And with that, I'm pretty much done putting in my 2 cents in this thread. Feel free to send me a PM if you wish to discuss further. I only monitor the forums infrequently, so may not respond in a timely manner.

 

[pmv]

And the fourth thing is there is rarely a dumb Asian nationalist because the culture values education, both in practical savvy and formal education. So you will not find the foolish hillbilly anywhere.

I don't know about the rest of your comment but this bit seems rather simplistic, as if 'culture' is some universal thing and everyone in China is a striver who values education above all. Historically China's been a nation of peasants, and peasants have peasant superstitions and attitudes and I find it hard to believe that has completely transformed overnight. They are not a different species, human beings everywhere, whether in the US or China, are moulded by the material conditions of their existence. Being determines consciousness, as someone the CCP might have heard of once said.

 

[sdifox]

I don't know about the rest of your comment but this bit seems rather simplistic, as if 'culture' is some universal thing and everyone in China is a striver who values education above all. Historically China's been a nation of peasants, and peasants have peasant superstitions and attitudes and I find it hard to believe that has completely transformed overnight. They are not a different species, human beings everywhere, whether in the US or China, are moulded by the material conditions of their existence. Being determines consciousness, as someone the CCP might have heard of once said.

Err it's because they are peasants the only upward mobility they got is to study hard and become a public servant.

Imperial examination - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[pmv]

Err it's because they are peasants the only upward mobility they got is to study hard and become a public servant.

Imperial examination - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

.

That would be the case for the ambitious few, but the previous poster seemed to be implying that was a universal trait of all Chinese people. I don't see any reason to believe that. Certainly historically there's no shortage of examples of the peasantry having superstitious and uneducated attitudes - really don't see why I should beleive they are all radically different from those US 'hill billies'. I don't buy this idea that national 'culture' somehow magically overrides the effect of the day-to-day conditions of life.

 

[sdifox]

That would be the case for the ambitious few, but the previous poster seemed to be implying that was a universal trait of all Chinese people. I don't see any reason to believe that. Certainly historically there's no shortage of examples of the peasantry having superstitious and uneducated attitudes - really don't see why I should beleive they are all radically different from those US 'hill billies'. I don't buy this idea that national 'culture' somehow magically overrides the effect of the day-to-day conditions of life.

It's ingrained in the Asians psyche studying hard is the most reliable future plan. This should not be news to you. I mean there are tons of Indians in the UK, just look at them.

 

[sdifox]

I had no idea there was this much regional difference in China, thanks for posting.

I did a Google search to get more of an idea of the different varieties of language:



What are Cantonese and Mandarin?

Mandarin and Cantonese are both tonal languages (different tones indicate different words in the same way that pronunciation does). They both belong to the Chinese branch of the Sino-Tibetan language family. They are two clearly differentiated Chinese languages. They are separate sub-branches of Chinese, not merely dialects or local varieties, and they are largely mutually unintelligible.

Mandarin is the majority Chinese language in China (spoken by about 70% of the population). Cantonese is one of about six less-spoken Chinese languages with the same roots in ancient Chinese, including Wu (Shanghainese) and Min (Fujianese), which also each have about 6% of China’s population using them as a first language.

Cantonese vs Mandarin: The 7 Main Differences

Mandarin and Cantonese are different Chinese language sub-branches, not merely dialects. Find out the real differences between Cantonese and Mandarin here.

www.chinahighlights.com

Mandarin is called that because it is the language used by the mandarins. All guvermental functions were supposed to be conducted in Mandarin. And since Beijing was the capital for most of unified Chinese history, a variation of Beijinese became the official language Mandarin.
When "foreigners" conquer China, they impose their language as the official language, so during Qing, Manchurian was the principal official language but Mandarin was still the most used in court simply because all the public servants know that.

During Yuen (mongols) Middle Mongolian was the official language. I think the officials had to learn that language.
I speak Mandarin, Taiwanese (branch of Fujianese). I understand most conversational Cantonese simply due to twenty plus year of exposure. Not that I can speak it.

 

[pmv]

It's ingrained in the Asians psyche studying hard is the most reliable future plan. This should not be news to you. I mean there are tons of Indians in the UK, just look at them.

Well I could easily look at them (my own father was a migrant from South Asia, as is half my family), but the picture seems extremely mixed, depending on which part of "Asia" one is talking about, and what their background was back home - what economic class, and also rural vs urban (plenty of people from South Asia here have no such culture of 'studying hard', I've known many in that category and they vary widely in that respect, as is reflected in the relevant statistics). Heck, insofar as I was interested in studying and working hard at school I sure as heck didn't get it from my father.

Plus you have to factor in the fact that migrants are a specific group themselves, with both a selection-effect and particular incentives/pressures acting on them, that aren't necessarily applicable to all those who stayed back 'home'. What often happens with migration is that the first generation of migrants take a step down the class heirarchy as the cost of migrating, but their offspring retain the cultural (and socio-economic) values of the previous generations and soon climb back up again...but that doesn't mean they are especially hard-working due to purely cultural considerations, it's just class reasserting itself.