Should the US defend Taiwan with military force?

[MrSquished]

It would be a just use of force to defend Taiwan and we should do it with our allies. Imagine that, being part of a just military mission, unlike Iraq.

 

[kage69]

Yes, along with Japan, India, Philippines, Australia, whomever else wants to not be bullied or invaded by the new Nazis of the Orient.

Will require a stand against Putin too. He's going to invade Ukraine, watch. Will likely synchronize it with Beijing trying to invade Taiwan.

 

[Ajay]

Global politics are a little weird. Taiwan has their own defense in TSMC. If anyone steps on that then they will feel the wrath of any other nation who has a vested interest in microprocessor production. Guess how many there are.

What wrath, Germany, France, Japan? I’m sure they will rush right over 😒. No they will all issue 'condemnations in the strongest terms'. Only the US has the offensive power to push China back. If we don’t lead, no one will act in anyway that will stop China.

Taiwan has enough defensive power to hold on till we get there - with support from allies that are willing to immediately send in assets. An immediate response is needed to get a sufficient Naval and AirPower assets coordinated and in position to present to China an ultimatum to stop or face a conflict that will include offensive combat in the straight and costal Chinese bases and ports.

The ‘semiconductor shield' simply means that the overthrow of Taiwan is against our strategic interests - and is a primary motivator for our involvement.

 

[cytg111]

The problem with coalitions is that the US military ends up doing all the fighting anyway. From Desert Storm, the Balkans, and the Bush Wars, we learned that our allies ain't worth a damn in a fight.

By what numbers do you figure that?

 

[kage69]

The problem with coalitions is that the US military ends up doing all the fighting anyway. From Desert Storm, the Balkans, and the Bush Wars, we learned that our allies ain't worth a damn in a fight.

Tell that to the Kurds.

Edit: there are some Filipinos, Jordanians, El Sals, Hmong, Dutch and Canadians that might take offense to that too. Not saying you're wrong per se, but that brush do be wide fam

 

[pmv]

The problem with coalitions is that the US military ends up doing all the fighting anyway. From Desert Storm, the Balkans, and the Bush Wars, we learned that our allies ain't worth a damn in a fight.

If we are getting into that sort of argument one could point out the US seems quite prone to kill their coalition partners in 'friendly fire' incidents.

 

[pmv]

I hate that I had to vote 'not sure', because I don't trust the West's love of military adventures, so many of them have been engaged in for dubious reasons and ended very badly. But I also don't trust the Chinese regime. I never quite know what to think about these sorts of conflicts.

 

[rommelrommel]

If they set their mind to it and execute the plan properly, they could overwhelm that little speck of rock off their shore in a matter of hours. And they ain't a dang blasted thing anybody could do about it short of ...

.

As usual, you don’t know squat.

It would be an undertaking well beyond the difficulty of the Normandy landings.

 

[rommelrommel]

I'm sure the actual Taiwanese people would argue that with you...

February 28 incident - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

White Terror (Taiwan) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I’m quite aware of the history, I was objecting to the characterisation of present day Taiwan being occupied solely by some renegade PRC officials.

 

[FelixDeCat]

I hate that I had to vote 'not sure', because I don't trust the West's love of military adventures, so many of them have been engaged in for dubious reasons and ended very badly. But I also don't trust the Chinese regime. I never quite know what to think about these sorts of conflicts.

Under Xi Jinping they have taken an aggressive world posture over the years.

Believe me, I know that anything that strengthens China, like acquiring Taiwan, will only make them even more cocky. That will likely spell trouble for its neighbors in matters of control over territorial waters, which would effect major things like fishing and shipping which is already a big area of conflict for all the surrounding nations.

 

[FelixDeCat]

Not sure my final answer although I tend to side with @ivwshane. Only in the context of an international coalition.

Just curious how the OP would voted same question but change the date to Sep 1 1939?

Before the invasion of Poland, the Nazis had been expanding territory without much resistance. If you remember, they used the phony excuse of the abuse of Germans in Poland as a reason for invasion, but they wanted to capture the part of Poland between the two parts of Germany. The Soviet Union also invaded Poland from the East.




Britain and France drew the line at Poland and declared war. And for a while they stood alone. At them time, America did not want to get into "another" World War. Besides we were woefully unprepared.

To be honest, if I were alive in 1939 I would have probably supported a non interventionist approach while providing material and logistical support to those actually fighting the Nazis, like the Lend / Lease program. We also needed to be preparing for war, since it seemed inevitable.

Nobody likes war, especially if its you that has to do the fighting.

With the bombing of Pearl Harbor, we then had no choice but to destroy the Nazis and Imperial Japan, no matter the cost.

 

[cytg111]

Sad truth is that we’ve been using Chinese slave labour for decades, now China has risen and demands what it thinks is its right. This comes down to a square off of ideologies. A CPC “regime” vs. Western democracies. We tell ourselves that we’re good righteous people… but common, look at the supply chain our lifestyles are depended on.
At the end of the day, without tech superiority no military superiority, no military superiority learn to speak mandarin.
It *is* coming to a stand off.

 

[BoomerD]

Sad truth is that we’ve been using Chinese slave labour for decades, now China has risen and demands what it thinks is its right. This comes down to a square off of ideologies. A CPC “regime” vs. Western democracies. We tell ourselves that we’re good righteous people… but common, look at the supply chain our lifestyles are depended on.
At the end of the day, without tech superiority no military superiority, no military superiority learn to speak mandarin.
It *is* coming to a stand off.

blame the greedy corporations for that shit. Yes, we consumers have been spoiled by "cheaper stuff," but it comes at the loss of millions of American jobs.

 

[MrSquished]

We all know if it was a Republican president and China invaded Taiwan, Felix and other conservatives would 100% be for defending democracy in what would really be the crucial test of China's expansion into all of Southeast Asia. Taiwain is of huge importance, both strategically and symbolically and of course, morally. And if it was a Republican president I sure as hell would back up that kind of military action. If Biden wasn't president, we wouldn't even have this post from our full of shit righty posters.

 

[HomerJS]

We all know if it was a Republican president and China invaded Taiwan, Felix and other conservatives would 100% be for defending democracy in what would really be the crucial test of China's expansion into all of Southeast Asia. Taiwain is of huge importance, both strategically and symbolically and of course, morally. And if it was a Republican president I sure as hell would back up that kind of military action. If Biden wasn't president, we wouldn't even have this post from our full of shit righty posters.

After Jan 6 and 4 years of Trump defending Democracy is no longer on conservatives list of concerns. Now it's CRT and banning books about black history and culture.

 

[MrSquished]

After Jan 6 and 4 years of Trump defending Democracy is no longer on conservatives list of concerns. Now it's CRT and banning books about black history and culture.

Indeed, but calling out China is, so they would 100% go to war.

 

[FelixDeCat]

blame the greedy corporations for that shit. Yes, we consumers have been spoiled by "cheaper stuff," but it comes at the loss of millions of American jobs.

I agree completely. When Nixon helped to normalize relations with China the hope was trade would bring about a true democratic movement in China. But what we wound up with was an even stronger regime with more power than ever. And a mockery of democracy ("Chinese Democracy") that allows a communist party leader to reign for as long as desired:

China Removes Presidential Term Limits, Enabling Xi Jinping To Rule Indefinitely

China's President Xi Jinping has consolidated power to levels not seen in decades. The country's rubber-stamp legislature approved the constitutional change with virtually no opposition.

www.npr.org

As mentioned several times in this thread, I am not a fan of military action. I am more dovish than hawkish, especially as I get older. The last time I supported military intervention was the use of force to remove Saddam Hussien from Kuwait. I also supported limited action against the Taliban after 9-11 to root out the terrorist bases and capture OBL, not the disastrous policy of Nation Building in a region that has never recognized itself as a unified body, but a collection of tribes.

We need to ween ourselves from China.

 

[MrSquished]

Imagine supporting the clearly corrupt war on Iraq but claiming they would be against stopping a huge act of aggression by China, which would be nothing but just. I think these righties that spout so much bullshit actually believe themselves when they talk.

I am dove-ish but was for the last major corrupt war the US fought where most of the left in this country and most of the rest of the world knew was a bullshit corrupt war. Freedom fries!

 

[hal2kilo]

Seems to me, all of the deals and treaties we've made with Taiwan (formerly Formosa) have been basically designed to delay the inevitable. Had to get our foot in the door of selling shit to the mainland, so sacrifices have to be made.

 

[rommelrommel]

Imagine supporting the clearly corrupt war on Iraq but claiming they would be against stopping a huge act of aggression by China, which would be nothing but just. I think these righties that spout so much bullshit actually believe themselves when they talk.

I am dove-ish but was for the last major corrupt war the US fought where most of the left in this country and most of the rest of the world knew was a bullshit corrupt war. Freedom fries!

Kuwait was gulf war 1, not 2.

 

[kage69]

blame the greedy corporations for that shit. Yes, we consumers have been spoiled by "cheaper stuff," but it comes at the loss of millions of American jobs.

..and helping fund a military we're going to have to face at some point too. Taiwan is a focal point yes, but not the whole deal - the larger agenda is control of Asia and the Pacific, taking Taiwan helps that considerably. Never really understood the 'they wouldn't risk the business' angle to dismissing the CCP threat of invasion. History has already given us examples of nationalistic froth outweighing the clout of lucrative international trade.

Americans need to understand what this means for the world order as we know it, also how it looks to other allies for America to talk about defending democratic principles/allies - and then not do that. Not exactly the stuff of healthy partnerships, or deterrence.

The fact is we've been on a Cold War footing with both China and Russia for a number of years now, and that at least China sees confrontation with the West as inevitable. I hope corporations are learning from this, taking steps like what we've seen from TSMC. I usually have sympathy for those complaining about the cost of maintaining the Tier 1 military of a super power. Not now, as I'd prefer our enlisted to have everything they want given what they'll be facing soon. At some point Xi is going to move on Taiwan, and if we want to preserve international order and our place in it, we and others will have to stop him. Old school CCP still has a real hard on for Japan. Even if we were to bow out of helping Taiwan, next up would be the Senkakus and Okinawa, that would mean TMCS time but this round its against an adversary with an even better footing for offensive operations. There's a reason Japan is drawing a line at Taiwan, and we must do the same. I also hope we begin to emulate their seriousness regarding the threat. Japan has extremely competent intelligence and naval resources, it's good they're on our side. I guess they are really fortifying a lot of islands now too. Sometimes I wish Australia had gone with Japan to replace the Collins boats. The new Taigai class are crazy bad news for the PLAN, they build good subs over there. Japanese sourced subs might actually arrive before or on time too.

 

[MrSquished]

Kuwait was gulf war 1, not 2.

They were both corrupt wars. The US gave the green light to their puppet Saddam to invade Kuwait.

 

[pmv]

Kuwait was gulf war 1, not 2.

Not sure what point is being made here, but as I remember it, originally "The Gulf War" referred to the Iran-Iraq war. Then the war over Kuwait became the Second Gulf War, then somehow, retrospectively, it became "The Gulf War" and then "The First Gulf War".

 

[Lost_in_the_HTTP]

I've begun to wonder how much oppression, coercion, mis-information, 'education' is applied by the Taiwan government (which is not officially recognized by many countries) to keep the populace from wanting to re-unify with China.

 

[rommelrommel]

I've begun to wonder how much oppression, coercion, mis-information, 'education' is applied by the Taiwan government (which is not officially recognized by many countries) to keep the populace from wanting to re-unify with China.

Good wumao, here’s your 50 yuan.