Should the US attack Syria?

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thraashman

Lifer
Apr 10, 2000
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A few missiles has not deterred any ME dictator.

Libya
Sudan
Iraq
Afghanistan (no real dictator there though)

It is an expected cost of war. Value of the population has no meaning to them.

I don't think we're trying to make one side win over another or deter Assad so much as we're trying to make it harder for him to use chemical weapons again. This is one of those hard things to pick a side on. All sides suck. What makes killing with chemical weapons worse than any other form of killing? Or what makes this a more important conflict to get involved in than the handful of other conflicts that occur.

I'm in that rare place where I'm both for and against this action. I'd prefer if the UN would take a lead role here and work as actual peacekeepers (Sebaceans?).
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
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Oct 30, 2000
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I don't think we're trying to make one side win over another or deter Assad so much as we're trying to make it harder for him to use chemical weapons again. This is one of those hard things to pick a side on. All sides suck. What makes killing with chemical weapons worse than any other form of killing? Or what makes this a more important conflict to get involved in than the handful of other conflicts that occur.

I'm in that rare place where I'm both for and against this action. I'd prefer if the UN would take a lead role here and work as actual peacekeepers (Sebaceans?).
I do not think that this will make it harder for him; Chem weapons are to easy to place on any type of munitions and if they are already mounted and in storage; we will not take the chance of initiating the dispersal of them by attacking the facility itself.

so it ends up with the chem weapons still viable from his perspective.

So, a couple of missile strikes on military targets; he has seen it happen with Israel and recovered.

Unless there will be continual strikes and other actions to force him to keep his head down; aka Libya; nothing is going to be done than what Syria has already seen/felt.
 

Pray To Jesus

Diamond Member
Mar 14, 2011
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Which Syrian Chemical Attack Account Is More Credible?


Let's compare a couple of accounts of the mass deaths apparently caused by chemical weapons in the Damascus suburb of Ghouta on August 21. One account comes from the U.S. government (8/30/13), introduced by Secretary of State John Kerry. The other was published by a Minnesota-based news site called Mint Press News (8/29/13).

The government account expresses "high confidence that the Syrian government carried out a chemical weapons attack" on August 21. The Mint report bore the headline "Syrians in Ghouta Claim Saudi-Supplied Rebels Behind Chemical Attack." Which of these two versions should we find more credible?

The U.S. government, of course, has a track record that will incline informed observers to approach its claims with skepticism&#8211;particularly when it's making charges about the proscribed weapons of official enemies. Kerry said in his address that "our intelligence community" has been "more than mindful of the Iraq experience"&#8211;as should be anyone listening to Kerry's presentation, because the Iraq experience informs us that secretaries of State can express great confidence about matters that they are completely wrong about, and that U.S. intelligence assessments can be based on distortion of evidence and deliberate suppression of contradictory facts.

Comparing Kerry's presentation on Syria and its accompanying document to Colin Powell's speech to the UN on Iraq, though, one is struck by how little specific evidence was included in the case for the Syrian government's use of chemical weapons. It gives the strong impression of being pieced together from drone surveillance and NSA intercepts, supplemented by Twitter messages and YouTube videos, rather than from on-the-ground reporting or human intelligence. Much of what is offered tries to establish that the victims in Ghouta had been exposed to chemical weapons&#8211;a question that indeed had been in some doubt, but had already largely been settled by a report by Doctors Without Borders that reported that thousands of people in the Damascus area had been treated for "neurotoxic symptoms."

On the critical question of who might be responsible for such a chemical attack, Kerry's presentation was much more vague and circumstantial. A key point in the government's white paper is "the detection of rocket launches from regime-controlled territory early in the morning, approximately 90 minutes before the first report of a chemical attack appeared in social media." It's unclear why this is supposed to be persuasive. Do rockets take 90 minutes to reach their targets? Does nerve gas escape from rockets 90 minutes after impact, or, once released, take 90 minutes to cause symptoms?

In a conflict as conscious of the importance of communication as the Syrian Civil War, do citizen journalists wait an hour and a half before reporting an enormous development&#8211;the point at which, as Kerry put it, "all hell broke loose in the social media"? Unless there's some reason to expect this kind of a delay, it's very unclear why we should think there's any connection at all between the allegedly observed rocket launches and the later reports of mass poisoning.

When the evidence isn't circumstantial, it's strikingly vague: "We intercepted communications involving a senior official intimately familiar with the offensive who confirmed that chemical weapons were used by the regime on August 21 and was concerned with the UN inspectors obtaining evidence," the report asserts. Taken at face value, it's one of the most damning claims in the government's report&#8211;a veritable confession. But how was the identity of this official established? And what exactly did they say that "confirmed" chemical weapons use? Recall that Powell played tapes of Iraqi officials supposedly talking about concealing evidence of banned weapons from inspectors&#8211;which turned out to show nothing of the kind. But Powell at least played tapes of the intercepted communication, even as he spun and misrepresented their contents&#8211;allowing for the possibility of an independent interpretation of these messages. Perhaps "mindful of the Iraq experience," Kerry allows for no such interpretation.

Another key claim is asserted without substantiation: "Syrian chemical weapons personnel were operating in the Damascus suburb of 'Adra from Sunday, August 18 until early in the morning on Wednesday, August 21, near an area that the regime uses to mix chemical weapons, including sarin." How were these personnel identified, and what were the signs of their operations? How was this place identified as an area used to mix sarin? Here again the information provided was far less detailed than what Powell gave to the UN: Powell's presentation included satellite photographs of sites where proscribed weapons were being made, with an explanation of what they revealed to "experts with years and years of experience": "The two arrows indicate the presence of sure signs that the bunkers are storing chemical munitions," he said, pointing to an annotated photograph of bunkers that turned out to be storing no such thing. Powell's presentation graphically demonstrated that US intelligence analysts are fallible, which is part of why presenting bare assertions without any of the raw materials used to derive those conclusions should not be very convincing.

Kerry did offer an explanation for why the report was so cursory: "In order to protect sources and methods, some of what we know will only be released to members of Congress, the representatives of the American people. That means that some things we do know, we can't talk about publicly." It is not clear, however, why intelligence methods that produced visual and audible evidence that could be shared with the public 10 years ago cannot be similarly utilized today. It does point to why the $52 billion the United States spends on surveillance annually, according to NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden (Washington Post, 8/29/13), provides relatively little information that's of value to American democracy: The collection of information is considered so much more valuable than the information collected that it rarely if ever can be used to inform a public debate. Instead, as we discuss the dreadful question of whether to launch a military attack on another country, we are offered an undemocratic "trust us" from the most secretive parts of our government&#8211;an offer that history warns us to be extremely wary of.

Unlike the U.S. government, Mint does not have much of a track record, having been founded only about a year and a half ago (CJR, 3/28/12). The founder of the for-profit startup is Mnar Muhawesh, a 24-year-old Palestinian-American woman who believes, reasonably enough, that "our media has absolutely failed our country" (MinnPost, 1/18/12). One of its two reporters on its Syrian chemical weapons piece, Dale Gavlak, is a longtime Associated Press Mideast stringer who has also done work for NPR and the BBC. AP was one of the few US corporate media outlets to question official assertions about Iraqi WMDs, contrasting Powell's assertions with what could be discerned from on-the-ground reporting (Extra!, 3-4/06).

Mint takes a similar approach to the Syrian story, with a reporter in Ghouta&#8211;not Gavlak but Yahya Ababneh, a Jordanian freelancer and journalism grad student&#8211;who "spoke directly with the rebels, their family members, victims of the chemical weapons attacks and local residents." The article reports that "many believe that certain rebels received chemical weapons via the Saudi intelligence chief, Prince Bandar bin Sultan, and were responsible for carrying out" the chemical attack. The recipients of the chemical weapons are said to be Jabhat al-Nusra, an Al-Qaeda-linked rebel faction that was caught possessing sarin nerve gas in Turkey, according to Turkish press reports (OE Watch, 7/13).

Mint quotes Abu Abdel-Moneim, described as the father of a rebel killed in the chemical weapons attacks, as saying that his son had described carrying unconventional weapons provided by Saudi Arabia to underground storage tunnels&#8211;a "tubelike structure" and a "huge gas bottle." A rebel leader identified as J describes the release of toxic weaponry as accidental, saying, "Some of the fighters handled the weapons improperly and set off the explosions." Another rebel referred to as K complains, "When Saudi Prince Bandar gives such weapons to people, he must give them to those who know how to handle and use them."

Of course, independent media accounts are not necessarily more credible than official reports&#8211;or vice versa. As with the government white paper, there are gaps in the Mint account; while Abdel-Moneim cites his late son's account of carrying chemical weapons, the rebels quoted do not indicate how they came to know what they say they know about the origin of the weapons. But unlike the government, Mint is honest about the limits of its knowledge: "Some information in this article could not be independently verified," the story admits. "Mint Press News will continue to provide further information and updates."

This humility about the difficulty of reporting on a covert, invisible attack in the midst of a chaotic civil war actually adds to the credibility of the Mint account. It's those who are most certain about matters of which they clearly lack firsthand knowledge who should make us most skeptical.
 
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Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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I don't think we're trying to make one side win over another or deter Assad so much as we're trying to make it harder for him to use chemical weapons again.

Actually, John McCain forced an amendment to be approved, which was, which does call for taking action to 'reverse the direction on the battlefield' to remove Assad from power.

I'm in that rare place where I'm both for and against this action. I'd prefer if the UN would take a lead role here and work as actual peacekeepers (Sebaceans?).

And the UN can't do that in the security council primarily because of Russian support for Syria, all they can do is pass resolutions in the general assembly.
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
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And the UN can't do that in the security council primarily because of Russian support for Syria, all they can do is pass resolutions in the general assembly.

Which is one of many reasons why the UN is and always will be a useless joke. I've taken flak around here in the past for pointing this out, but the Syria situation lays it bare to even the most ardent of denialists on the matter.

There simply is no such thing as "united" nations, and never will be as long as we have the likes of Russia and China with veto power on the security council. The general assembly, with its dozens of nations led by tinpot dictators, religious nutjobs and assorted juntas, all having "equal votes", is almost as bad.
 
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EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
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Oct 30, 2000
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Which is one of many reasons why the UN is and always will be a useless joke. I've taken flak around here in the past for pointing this out, but the Syria situation lays it bare to even the most ardent of denialists on the matter.

There simply is no such thing as "united" nations, and never will be as long as we have the likes of Russia and China with veto power on the security council. The general assembly, with its dozens of nations led by tinpot dictators, religious nutjobs and assorted juntas, all having "equal votes", is almost as bad.

While we may choose to blame Russia & China; one should also attempt to look at it from their point of view.

You have the western world still trying to dictate how the UN should be operated.

The two countries that took the main casualties out of WW2; considered pariahs by their own partners and now see policies trying to be implemented that counteract their visions.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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While we may choose to blame Russia & China; one should also attempt to look at it from their point of view.

You have the western world still trying to dictate how the UN should be operated.

The two countries that took the main casualties out of WW2; considered pariahs by their own partners and now see policies trying to be implemented that counteract their visions.

Good points, EK. If 'the west' is a bit too aggressive about its own interests, it naturally forms an opposition that might be even terrible or evil at times, but makes some sense.

It's very easy for any country to whitewahs what it does wrong, while screaming about what the 'other side' does wrong.

You end up with Syria and Iran and Russia allying simply as protecting each other from the west - and excusing each other's bad behaviors.

But the US has a terrible history in a lot of ways in not only supporting terrible tyrannies but sometimes installing them by force, which we're quick to whitewash.

In the only other use of WMD since WWII, we allied with the dictator who used them and provided some protection to him, both helping him conceal the evidence from the UN and militarilty protecting him from some of the people he used them against. But that's ok because it helped 'our side' against 'their side'.

The UN plays smoe very useful roles - it's great for some airing of issues, at the world's governments getting to express opinions, at a lot of humanitarian activities.

But its very design by the powerful nations to give themselves a veto power has crippled its ability to take much action except against small unaligned nations.

That's not a flaw with the idea of a UN - it's a flaw with the powerful nations' protecting their own powers from the rest of the world.

It'd be a little like saying the idea of the American colonies leaving England to form a nation was wrong becuase the Articles of Confederation were a flawed attempt. The idea had good things about it, but it started out with some flaws. Difference it, we reformed the government, but it seems unlikely a better UN will be allowed by the powerful nations. We already have a lot of people hating the UN even despite the good it does do.

You're right on to point out the 'other side' needs to be understood. The more that happens, the less need for supporting bad 'client states' there is. Russia wouldn't see such a need to support Iran and Syria if they didn't see a western aggression to control the Middle East. This leaves Russia supporting a dictator in Syria, who causes a rebellion among the people, which he's willing to fight with brutal force, with Russia's protection.

That's how the world has been for a long time split among competing powers. Since nuclear weapons, it's been proxy state wars; before that it was world wars.

There's plenty of blame to go around for the powerful nations not being very willing to try to reach some situation with fewer terrible 'client states'.

It's a lot less bad than it used to be, with many dictatorships gone, but powerful nations are still trying to look for chances to grab some more power.

What if Russia were to support Assad by putting Russian forces in the country? These things keep coming down to some large power having to give in in these conflicts.

Unfortunately, I'm just explaining how these things are continuing, but that doens't help much with all the millions killed and displaced as the powers have their proxy wars.

I will say though that we have a faction who embraces those wars, who fully endorses these power grabs that kill so many people, the 'Project for a New American Century' group who clearly endorse this pursuit of power, among other things calling for some wars 'just to remind people of our power'. Pursuing nothing but 'global dominance' by force.

That group is not demonized enough in this country - they come reasonably close to winning the presidency each time.

It's the same people who saw fit to fight illegal Central American wars under Reagan and an illegal war under Bush and would happily start another with Iran.

I think after (England) forcing Iran to give away control of its oil in the first half of the 20th century, to overthrowing its democracy the next quarter century, to supporting Saddam's war on them killing a million people after that, that we've done enough to Iran before making war our next action.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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I'm going to add an asterisk to my support for action. I'm doing some reconsidering based on the 'international law' issue' and to a lesser extend the weak international support. So there are two questions - one is to more strongly consider that an attack would violate the UN Charter we signed, even under some legalistic nonsense about how there's a 'threat' of Assad arming someone with WMD who might attack us - a standard far lower than allowed - and a second that we can make more peaceful efforts.

Could it happen that for the sake of not violating the UN Charter, we let the weapons be used without punishment, simply blaming the Russians for blocking the UN measure?

It's possible. And it's possible lessons will be learned about 'appeasment'.

One thing that's sad is that I suspect much of Republican opposition in Congress is driven by the politics of this hurting Obama to vote no.

People forget that the 1940 election was dominated by both parties having to loudly say they were against entering the war in Europe.

There's no risk of Assad being a new Germany with the power to start world war - he's just trying to protect his regime from his own people - but the politics seem similar.

One thing we do see this time appears to be the absence of the administration willfully misleading the American people to get war support, whether it was a false report of an attack on our ship in the Gulf of Tonkin, or 'taking babies out of incubators' in Kuwait, or WMD and claims of a nuclear program in Iraq, or for that matter a murky explosion of the battleship 'Maine'.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
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This is so Moronic. First when becoming president OBamma bowed to everyone on earth. It was O'Bamma's Idea to expand the war in Afghanistan. Then he bombed Libya and got involved in Egypt by giving the military there more trains and tanks. OBamma had over 30 CIA agents in Benghazi selling and distributing arms and ammunition to terrorists and killing our own people there and then running away like a little chicken and telling lies about it on TV. Then the President nominated Kerry as secretary of state. Kerry testified before congress during the Vietnam era that Soldiers in Viet Nam were all Baby killers. Is Kerry really the man trying to convince people to go to war in Syria? There is nothing more on earth that could possibly be more oxy-morinic!
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
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It is O'Bamma's dream to overthrow all the dictators in the muslim world and replace them with religious leaders to turn the whole world into one giant Islamic Empire! Do you even know what he is doing? How can you say his Muslim background is not affecting his bias judgemental attitudes when it comes to any decisions having to do with the Muslim World?
 
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Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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This is so Moronic. First when becoming president OBamma bowed to everyone on earth. It was O'Bamma's Idea to expand the war in Afghanistan. Then he bombed Libya and got involved in Egypt by giving the military there more trains and tanks. OBamma had over 30 CIA agents in Benghazi selling and distributing arms and ammunition to terrorists and killing our own people there and then running away like a little chicken and telling lies about it on TV. Then the President nominated Kerry as secretary of state. Is Kerry really the man trying to convince people to go to war in Syria? There is nothing more on earth that could possibly be more oxy-morinic!

First, language like 'oxy-moronic' is not decent discussion for this forum IMO.

Second, let's hear you provide evidence for every one of your assertions. I'll number some.

1. President Obama bowed to everyone in the world, instead of bowing in certain occassions where it was appropriate, as other presidents have.

2. "OBamma had over 30 CIA agents in Benghazi selling and distributing arms and ammunition to terrorists and killing our own people there"

First, his name is spelled "Obama". If you can't spell his name, you don't have the credibility to discuss the issue.

Second, you wrote that Obama had CIA agents killing our own people. I'll assume that's simply a problem with your English skills and not what you meant.

Now, let's see the evidence the CIA sold weapons to people who killed our own people.

3. "and then running away like a little chicken"

Evidence. I think he's still at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave, with his officials testifyig.

Perhaps you could point to Reagan's behavior over the Lebanon 249 Marines bombed and withdrawal, or how he handled Itan-Contra, or Bush's handling of no WMD for better?

4. "and telling lies about it on TV"

Evidence of Obama telling lies on TV. If you're referring to the claim Susan Rice told lies, she accurately reported the statement from State and the CIA.

It's been thoroughly looked at and there's no evidence anyone lied. You said Obama lied on television about it. Let's see the evidence.

5. "Kerry testified before congress during the Vietnam era that Soldiers in Viet Nam were all Baby killers. "

Evidence that Kerry said that every soldier in Vietnam killed a baby.

6. "Is Kerry really the man trying to convince people to go to war in Syria?"

Evidence that Kerry is trying to convince people to "go to war in Syria", rather than a limited, specific strike with no option for broader war or combat troops.
 
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Vaux

Senior member
May 24, 2013
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Craig, I am sure you will correct me on this if you can, but as far as I know, it was never proven that George Bush or anyone else actually lied about WMD's. I have seen you state this multiple times. It's important to note that the US was not the only country that had intelligence stating that Iraq had WMD's.

There was a lot of flawed intelligence and misinterpretations. And maybe even some people that were too willing to believe some suspect reports. But I believe he really believed he thought Iraq was stockpiling WMD, and so did the other countries. The books I have read on this issue seem to agree.
 
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Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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Vaux, what books are those?

It's really a lot of history to get into, but the bottom line in my opinion is that the project was approached as a decision by George Bush to start that was - whatever his influences and motives - and that once decided - and even his top level staff say they cannot remember any actual discussion of decision making process on the decision to go to war, simply that one day it had been decided - all the efforts were put into overcoming obstacles to war, and that included willful use of false information.

I'll just make a few points.

- There was a rather extraordinary article by one of the key insiders admitting that WMD was simply selected as the reason to give for the war because it best overcame bureaucratic hurdles. That decision being made, all efforts were simply put into using any information, however clearly discredited, to build that case. It wasn't important if it was true, it was simply a tool for the war project.

- The history with Ambassador Joe Wilson really paints the picture of their approach, including the willingness to lie.

They got ahold of rumors of an Iraq agent attempting to buy yellowcake in Africa. The CIA's job was to evaluate the truth of the rumor. One of the agents in the discussion's husband was a former ambassador who had strong relationships with the country at issue - he had played a key role in helping the leaders come to power, they owed him and would cooperate. He was approached for the mission and accepted as a patriot.

He went, he talked to the people, and he came up with a clear conclusion that the rumors were false. All kinds of evidence supported that; yellowcake was very tightly controlled. The document that was the basis for the rumor turned out to be a laughable and obvious forgery with things like wrong names.

He wrote a report on the results and turned it in, expecting that to be the end of it.

Several months later, he saw the State of the Union where Bush stated the US beleived the reports were true. He was shocked, and immediately contacted people he knew in the government to ask, had there been new evidence? No. The National Security staff had simply ignored his report and used the rumor in the State of the Union.

Wilson was horrified about the American people being lied to this way. He approached insiders about the need for a correction, and they refused, so he finally wrote an editorial to expose the real story. Immediately, the administration attacked him. All knds of attacks were made such as suggesting he had taken the trip as a 'boondoggle', and his wife was exposed as a CIA Agent, ending her career.

An investigation found that the leak had two sources - the more innocent was someone who simply talked too much, but the other led right to Dick Cheney, whose Chief of Staff was convicted of a felony, with the prosecutor making clear he knew it was a Dick Cheney action but didn't have the evidence for criminal charges.

(The crime he was convicted of was covering up the role his office had played in the leak from the criminal incestigation. Of course, he refused to implicate Cheney, and his sentence was commuted by George Bush so he'd serve no jail time, reportedly a demand he made to remain a loyal member of the team.)

There was no good faith mistake there - it was typical of their willingness to lie and abuse their power against anyone who exposed the truth.

- The CIA was conflicted between its mission to get it right and the massive political pressure brought on them to get one answer, with repeated visits by Cheney.

It was made clear to people, reportedly, if they refused to play ball, their services were not needed.

- Most of the case was based on one person's uncorroborated statements.

An Iraqi refugee had fled to Germany and wanted asylum. Many, many Iraqis had done the same thing. His chances of approval were only one in 25 - so he determined to find a way to improve his chances by making himself valuable to them. He made claims to have witnessed WMD activities, and was immediately accepted.

The Germans took all the things he made up, and reported them to the US. They included their opinion that he was unreliable and had alcohol abuse issues.

The Bush administration, with no one in the US ever talking to the Iraqi or knowing his name, ignored the cautions from the Germans and completely accepted all his claims, making them the basis for the US presentaion in the UN to the world to 'prove' Iraq had WMD.

- The presentation the administration create for Colin Powell was such low quality, filled with obvious lies and ubstantiated claims, he threw it out and refused to use it.

He told them they had to do another better one, which resulted in the one he gave based on 'Curveball'.

- If the Bush adminitration wanted the truth about WMD, UN inspectors were in Iraq investigating. They were providing regular reports to the UN - reports that said they had adequate access to succesfully complete their mission, that so far they had found no WMD, and recommended no action be started against Iraq.

The UN team was scheduled to complete the investigation in several weeks.

The Bush administration launched a PR attack on the UN team and specifically its leader Hans Blix to try to discredit him, and accelerated their schedule for war in order to not allow the inspections to be completed. They ordered the inspectors to leave Iraq weeks before they would have concluded there were no WMD, in order to start the war.

- The administration used a technique of having a few journalists they were close with, like Judith Miller of the NY Times, print leaks they gave the journalists as anonymous sources - and then go on the talk shows and say 'we're not the only ones saying this, look at even the New York Times saying the same thing we are - independent verification of our claims'. That's not honest, it's lying.

There were a lot of people around the world involved in the question whether Saddam had WMD. A lot of them were well-intentioned, and asked a lot of questions trying to get the answers. The bottom line is that while not all the well-intentioned people got the correct answer, the Bush administration willfully and massively lied in their campaign to get approval for the war.

The evidence is overwhelming. I can point you to any number of investigative books with all kinds of specific evidence.

Colin Powell's chief of staff, Lawrence Wilkerson, with Powell's blessing, has made clear that Powell was used for this credibility to sell the lies.

As I recall Powell - who I'm not a big fan of but he seems pretty honest generally - said in hindsight the UN presentation was the worst day of his public service.

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Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
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While we may choose to blame Russia & China; one should also attempt to look at it from their point of view.

I don't want to see it from their point of view. They are both highly corrupt regimes and their views and interests entirely antithetical to our concepts of freedom and justice.

I certainly understand that they oppose our "Western ideals", but that's exactly why the UN is a total and complete farce -- there can be no "uniting" of nations when so many of them are run by people and groups with such completely different notions of how the world should work.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
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Oct 30, 2000
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So, we toss the UN out of the picture and operate like back in the older days of NATO and the Pact.

Or go back to the League

Or further back; when every nation stood alone unless it was advantageous to team up.

Or remove the UN from everything except the charitable functions which is some areas is just as corrupt.

A country's first duty is to look out for itself and its own interests. Russia and China do that, just as the US, France, England, etc do. Allies are usually second and then the world. seems like I accidentally nailed the Security Council perfectly. :p
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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So, we toss the UN out of the picture and operate like back in the older days of NATO and the Pact.

Or go back to the League

Or further back; when every nation stood alone unless it was advantageous to team up.

Or remove the UN from everything except the charitable functions which is some areas is just as corrupt.

A country's first duty is to look out for itself and its own interests. Russia and China do that, just as the US, France, England, etc do. Allies are usually second and then the world. seems like I accidentally nailed the Security Council perfectly. :p

The UN does some good - it's better than not having it. It is a good forum for discussing issues and getting nations' governments to express views.

It's wrong to dismiss a lot of great things it does for people with a comment about corruption, even if it's imperfect like pretty much any big organization.

Here's a bit what the UN Security council is like.

The Hatfields and McCoys have a fued; they are killing each other off. Finally, they agree, they'll try hiring a sheriff for the county - but they're worried about any restrictions on their own operations so they put a condition, any arrest has to have both of their families approve it.

So, some guy not in either family steals a horse from someone else; neither family objects, he's arrested.

Then a McCoy sees a Hatfield and shoots him. The McCoys say he can't be arrested. Then the Hatfields retaliate and shoot a McCoy. The hatfields say he can't be arrested.

Then the first horse thief gets out of jail, and steals a horse from the McCoys. The Hatfields say he can't be arrested.

The McCoys and Hatfields agree on one thing - the sheriff sucks! He hasn't stopped crimes.

Their solution isn't to free the sheriff to follow the law when it applies to them, it's not to hire more deputies to better enforce the law, it's to get rid of any sheriff. Good plan.

This is really a pretty indicative analogy - there's a word court which is pretty excellent about some basic international crimes, but we won't support it.

The Sheriff at least has the purpose of affecting the reputations of the families as he says who he wants to arrest for a crime. Better than nothing.

Again and again, the administration can at least point to 'norms against the use of nerve gas', norms that are made more clear and made stronger by the UN's activities.

They've been pretty limited in use with all this - Hitler before the UN, Saddam, and Assad.

Syria didn't sign the treaty - making them a bit of a pariah for that.

I disagree with you that a nation's first duty is to look out for its own interests. I actually have one test for people, the question, are you a member of your nation first, or the human race first? I think the correct answer is the latter. Of course a nation is going to put its own interests at a higher priority than others - a fact that helps make clear some need for some rules for nations - but I think nations should try to and be expected to and really required to operate within some limits on how they harm others.

If it would be 'in our interests' to grab part of Canada for our lumber needs, is that all we should care about? No.

When Saddam decided it was in Iraq's interest to grab Kuwait, was that all that should matter? No.

You point to Russia and China acting in their nation's interests, and to a point they do, but there are some limits there as well. The old days of satellites by force are softer.

One of the worst remaining examples is China's support of Noth Korea, but there are at least pressures on China there, and they're even warming up to the idea of re-unification, according to Wikileaks. There are some pressures against some of the worst things that used to happen a lot. The whole idea of occupied colonies, often brutal, the norm for centuries, has largely disappeared.

We should be considering more how to help the sheriff be effective than getting rid of law. And in the meantime, support the sheriff in the good things he can do.
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
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The UN does some good - it's better than not having it. It is a good forum for discussing issues and getting nations' governments to express views.

In this and other difficult situations, it allows countries to sit on the fence and punt with "let the UN do it", which in turn gives the power to the least common denominator to hold everything up based purely on selfish interests.

In that respect, it is actually worse than not having it.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
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Oct 30, 2000
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In this and other difficult situations, it allows countries to sit on the fence and punt with "let the UN do it", which in turn gives the power to the least common denominator to hold everything up based purely on selfish interests.

In that respect, it is actually worse than not having it.

The UN is an excuse for countries that should be involved in issues to pass the buck.

The situation in East Africa is a great example. The problem with Somalia/Sudan/Ethiopia, etc as civil war and refugees should be handled by those African nations that are being affected; yet the governments will not work to allow the problem to be solved; they want to run their own fiefdoms and let the world try to help.

In the process fattening everyone except those that need it.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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The UN is an excuse for countries that should be involved in issues to pass the buck.

The situation in East Africa is a great example. The problem with Somalia/Sudan/Ethiopia, etc as civil war and refugees should be handled by those African nations that are being affected; yet the governments will not work to allow the problem to be solved; they want to run their own fiefdoms and let the world try to help.

In the process fattening everyone except those that need it.

Without the UN, all those nations would be upstanding and do the right things. Darn UN.

I repeat: the UN does huge amounts of good. That should not be ignored.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
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Without the UN, all those nations would be upstanding and do the right things. Darn UN.

I repeat: the UN does huge amounts of good. That should not be ignored.

Those nations might solve their problems instead of getting rich from others that care.
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
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Without the UN, all those nations would be upstanding and do the right things. Darn UN.

Without the UN, the countries that want to do the right things wouldn't be hamstrung by people saying "we need to go through the UN" -- especially when that's impossible due to nations perfectly happy to do the "wrong things" if it serves their interests.

If the UN does "huge amounts of good", I'm not seeing it... at least, not any good out of proportion to the amount of money they are given, which could do good works in any other organization, probably far better.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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Those nations might solve their problems instead of getting rich from others that care.

Zero evidence for that. What we do know is that helping helps. And they're not 'getting rich'. Where does that nonsense come from? Have you seen the refugee camps?
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
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Oct 30, 2000
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Zero evidence for that. What we do know is that helping helps. And they're not 'getting rich'. Where does that nonsense come from? Have you seen the refugee camps?

The general population is not. It is the governmental leaders and the warlords.
 

Murloc

Diamond Member
Jun 24, 2008
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Without the UN, the countries that want to do the right things wouldn't be hamstrung by people saying "we need to go through the UN" -- especially when that's impossible due to nations perfectly happy to do the "wrong things" if it serves their interests.

If the UN does "huge amounts of good", I'm not seeing it... at least, not any good out of proportion to the amount of money they are given, which could do good works in any other organization, probably far better.
money in the UNESCO, UNHCR, UNICEF etc. and all the UN specialized agencies is well spent.

Countries that want to do the right things aren't hamstrung at all, you're free to attack any time, UN resolution or not. It's not like it stopped you in iraq or during the cold war proxy wars.

People saying "we have to go through the UN" just don't want the attack to happen and use it as a diplomatic shield.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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The general population is not. It is the governmental leaders and the warlords.

The governmental leaders and warlords aren't 'getting rich' off of UN aid either, that I've seen. Is it perfect? Can aid sometimes be abused? Yes. Overall it's very helpful.

You can't just go around removing every government who abuses aid - and just not doing the aid would be terrible for the people.