Should the US abolish the Federal Reserve?

[halik]

Originally posted by: Evan Lieb

Originally posted by: Perry404

Who makes up the fed? Can you answer this one simple question?
If you cannot answer this one simple question how can you possibly claim to understand the federal reserve?

Besides the Fed Chair Bernanke, I'm not exactly sure myself beyond the various banks, but I'm sure LK can give a better answer.

Sorry but printing money out of thin air is thievery. Any idiot can figure out that this will devalue the dollar.

I'm not sure why you keep stating this Perry. I like a lot of Paul's ideas, but he is 100% dead wrong on the Fed and inflation. Printing money is not theft, it's plain and simple. Printing money is a very sensible reaction to the deflationary issues a currency may encounter. And in the U.S.'s case, we have an ever increasing population and, therefore, an increase in outputs like goods and services domestically (and aboard) every year. Guess what? That means the demand for money is increasing every year. When aggregate demand increases in an economy, it would be financial suicide to not increase the money supply.

Increasing the money supply is part of a healthy economy. There certainly is such a thing as printing too much money; for example, the war in Iraq has been funded this way. And if this were to occur long term (and Bernanke has acknowledged this), it would be a problem. But many see Iraq spending as a short term problem. Here's hoping.

For the record, the amount of nominal fiat money is completely irrelevant. If i had a magic wand that could double the amount of all dollar $$$ denominated amount, there would be virtually zero impact on the economy.

Case point is Poland in the late 90s erasing 4 zeros of their currency... even though people were 10000 times "poorer" since your 100,000 zloty was now only 10 zloty, there was 0 impact on their economy.

 

[event8horizon]

i like paul warburg's (one of the fathers of our fed) quote about "we shall have one world government whether or not we like it. the only question is whether world governemnt will be achieved by conquest or consent.." so the fed was set up to be independent of the u.s. politics but whos politics does he represent??

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: event8horizon
i like paul warburg's (one of the fathers of our fed) quote about "we shall have one world government whether or not we like it. the only question is whether world governemnt will be achieved by conquest or consent.." so the fed was set up to be independent of the u.s. politics but whos politics does he represent??

The world will naturally migrate to ever larger forms of government. It's a natural aggregation of populations that attempt to band together for more collective bargaining and power blocs. Anybody who studies anthropology can see the natural progression.

The Fed was set up the way it was for a very good reason. Just because he had one idea of politics doesn't mean he wanted it to keep going towards that direction. Furthermore, it doesn't take much for a real person of character to think on way personally and act another when they should for the good of all.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

Originally posted by: Perry404
I don't need to have a complex understanding of the federal reserve to know that it is doing a great disservice to this nation, its citizens and to the value of our currency.

This is the most telling sentence in your rebuttal. "I may not know what I'm talking about, but I am outraged!" If you can't be bothered to even research a topic, and then ignore someone who clearly knows more about the topic than you (great post by the way LegendKiller), why in God's name should any of us listen to you?

Do us a favor. Go out and read at least three books on the Federal Reserve. These books must not all come from the same viewpoint (and preferably at least one will be positive about the Reserve, and one negative, even though you seem to have that covered), they must look at the Federal Reserve's history, including inception and why it came about, and it's current incarnation, and they must explain explicitly what the Federal Reserve does, and how. Until you can prove that you have done this, we will not pay you one iota of attention when you start ranting about the Federal Reserve, as your self-professed ignorance of the subject matter renders your opinion useless.

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: Atomic Playboy

Originally posted by: Perry404
I don't need to have a complex understanding of the federal reserve to know that it is doing a great disservice to this nation, its citizens and to the value of our currency.

This is the most telling sentence in your rebuttal. "I may not know what I'm talking about, but I am outraged!" If you can't be bothered to even research a topic, and then ignore someone who clearly knows more about the topic than you (great post by the way LegendKiller), why in God's name should any of us listen to you?

Do us a favor. Go out and read at least three books on the Federal Reserve. These books must not all come from the same viewpoint (and preferably at least one will be positive about the Reserve, and one negative, even though you seem to have that covered), they must look at the Federal Reserve's history, including inception and why it came about, and it's current incarnation, and they must explain explicitly what the Federal Reserve does, and how. Until you can prove that you have done this, we will not pay you one iota of attention when you start ranting about the Federal Reserve, as your self-professed ignorance of the subject matter renders your opinion useless.

lol, I missed that one.

"I don't need to know anything about this topic of value, other than conspiracy theory websites of other ignorant people, but you better take me seriously!"

Wow, imagine if I ran around my bank screaming at people for being stupid about their positions and I knew nothing about them. I think I'd probably get fired pretty quickly. Yet, somehow, this dude thinks that it'll work on the internet.

Perry, just give it up. I like Ron Paul and will probably vote for him, but his policy on the Fed is ridiculous and yours is also.

I've read all sides. I read the last book on Jekyll Island and many others. I have also read biographies on JPMorgan and other bankers, along with serveral books on the 1800 bank runs, the 1907 crisis, many many books on 1929-1941, and other books on periods since.

Between my formal education, my job, and my personal reading, I probably have read well over 200 books on economics and finance. Probably around 50 on topics such as this, from all aspects. Sometimes I re-read good books several times, after I have read others, so I can tie the knowledge back and rethink things. My bookshelves are chocked full of economics books (much to my wife's chargrin).It's why I can form more complete arguments.

 

[event8horizon]

im having a hard time in finding the congressmen that actually signed the bill. it looks like it was split with republicans on one side and dems on the other (kinda like today)!!! from what i remember, not that many congressmen were actually there to participate, considering it was christmas. can anyone help??

 

[event8horizon]

to legendkiller-
by the way, i do believe the world is headed to a one wold gov. how will be in charge is the question. with the onslaughts to our constitution and the whacking away of our sovereignty....by way of the council of foreign relations...another warburg (and others) creation, i really do believe we are headed that way. through consent or conquest...right!!

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: event8horizon
to legendkiller-
by the way, i do believe the world is headed to a one wold gov. how will be in charge is the question. with the onslaughts to our constitution and the whacking away of our sovereignty....by way of the council of foreign relations...another warburg (and others) creation, i really do believe we are headed that way. through consent or conquest...right!!

It's going to be a long time and there's no one single group pushing that perspective. It has nothing to do with Warburg or anybody else.

 

[compuwiz1]

Originally posted by: event8horizon
to legendkiller-
by the way, i do believe the world is headed to a one wold gov. how will be in charge is the question. with the onslaughts to our constitution and the whacking away of our sovereignty....by way of the council of foreign relations...another warburg (and others) creation, i really do believe we are headed that way. through consent or conquest...right!!

Like Sharia law, if we don't watch our asses, or control what kind of asses we elect. 🙁

 

[event8horizon]

well, warburg was around german and english bankers. one learns from what one is around. i dont think he would just say that in front of the senate without the knowledge of a group(that he was a part of) that was thinking about one world government. and i dont think he was talking about league of nations/united nations either.

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: event8horizon
well, warburg was around german and english bankers. one learns from what one is around. i dont think he would just say that in front of the senate without the knowledge of a group(that he was a part of) that was thinking about one world government. and i dont think he was talking about league of nations/united nations either.

So what if he was around German and English bankers? He wasn't forcing our government to do anything towards a world government.

Look, everybody supported the Nazis until 1941 and some supported them after, to their detriment in most cases. Not everybody got caught but many did. However, to somehow say that all were involved and caused problems is silly.

Additionally, there is no conspiracy about the Fed. People realized the old system sucked and to be an economic power, we needed change. Go look up the GDP from 1906, then look at it now. Even if the Fed added some volatility in learning how to either move the economy or get out of the way, overall we have grown tremendously. Having an efficient capital markets system with the help of the Fed has lead to correct and much more efficient capitalization of enterprises that deserve it and some that dont, but overall, the cycles have built us to where we are.

I firmly believe without this aggregation we would be a 3rd world nation. Who caused us to move in this direction and their affililations have little to no affect on HOW they got us here, WHY they got us here, and WHERE we came from.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

People realized the old system sucked and to be an economic power, we needed change.

Go look up the GDP from 1906, then look at it now. Even if the Fed added some volatility in learning how to either move the economy or get out of the way, overall we have grown tremendously. Having an efficient capital markets system with the help of the Fed has lead to correct and much more efficient capitalization of enterprises that deserve it and some that dont, but overall, the cycles have built us to where we are.

I firmly believe without this aggregation we would be a 3rd world nation.

Who caused us to move in this direction and their affililations have little to no affect on HOW they got us here, WHY they got us here, and WHERE we came from.

What people realized the "old" system sucked?

How do you explain the U.S. declining into 3rd world status now?

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

People realized the old system sucked and to be an economic power, we needed change.

Go look up the GDP from 1906, then look at it now. Even if the Fed added some volatility in learning how to either move the economy or get out of the way, overall we have grown tremendously. Having an efficient capital markets system with the help of the Fed has lead to correct and much more efficient capitalization of enterprises that deserve it and some that dont, but overall, the cycles have built us to where we are.

I firmly believe without this aggregation we would be a 3rd world nation.

Who caused us to move in this direction and their affililations have little to no affect on HOW they got us here, WHY they got us here, and WHERE we came from.

What people realized the "old" system sucked?

How do you explain the U.S. declining into 3rd world status now?

People who knew that disaggregated banks created runs. People who knew that having thousands of versions of currency created massive inefficiency. People who knew that, without properly functioning capital markets, money would never get to those who can deploy it efficiently and innovate.

Please Dave, stop with the bullshit hyperbole. While you type on a nice computer, with a roof over your head, an education, and food, you bitch about us declining into 3rd world status? Have you ever been to a 3rd world country?

 

[Pabster]

Very well said LegendKiller. :thumbsup:

 

[eits]

yeah, the fed is a private company... not federally run. it has nothing to do with the federal government.

it's ridiculous for our government to get a loan from the federal reserve, with interest. how the hell do you pay it back?? you can't.

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: eits
yeah, the fed is a private company... not federally run. it has nothing to do with the federal government.

it's ridiculous for our government to get a loan from the federal reserve, with interest. how the hell do you pay it back?? you can't.

Ohhh for fucks sake. The Fed is owned by *PUBLIC* companies for the most part. EVERY bank in the entire US that belongs to the Fed system OWNS THE FED. Can you f'ing read?

The government shouldn't own the Fed, you do *NOT* want politicians deciding how the economy should go.

The government doesn't get a loan from the Fed, it gets loans from investors, other people who have money to give it. Go back to finance class.

This is where I get absolutely disgusted, when people, despite having all of the facts presented, just go on and think their silly little theories. It's amazing that they can even live in a society where dissenting opinions, facts, and ideas are presented on a daily basis, which overturn long-held beliefs. They refuse to learn and listen and keep to ridiculous theories and notions.

People like you are used by politicians and others with an agenda. You're nothing more than a tool for their purposes.

 

[OutHouse]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: Citrix
yes the FR is private, its exactly what our founding fathers were against.

How is it private? Each regional bank is owned by all banks in that region, thus, it is *PUBLIC*. If you can prove it's private, then do so. Otherwise, you know nothing.

The founding fathers lived in a time when every bank issued it's own currency, when the GDP of this country wasn't even 1/1000th of what it currently is, when modern economics hadn't even been invented, and the idea of a central bank was conceived as a way for one or two men to control everything without any congressional mandate.

Do you have any proof to your assertions or are you just going to enter and exit a thread with 1-liners?

Creature From Jekyll Island
By G. Edward Griffin

is a good book, but i see you read it already.

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: Citrix

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: Citrix
yes the FR is private, its exactly what our founding fathers were against.

How is it private? Each regional bank is owned by all banks in that region, thus, it is *PUBLIC*. If you can prove it's private, then do so. Otherwise, you know nothing.

The founding fathers lived in a time when every bank issued it's own currency, when the GDP of this country wasn't even 1/1000th of what it currently is, when modern economics hadn't even been invented, and the idea of a central bank was conceived as a way for one or two men to control everything without any congressional mandate.

Do you have any proof to your assertions or are you just going to enter and exit a thread with 1-liners?

Creature From Jekyll Island
By G. Edward Griffin

is a good book, but i see you read it already.

It was a horrible book. It took a small amount of fact, wrapped that into biases, and then concluded with a crap-ton of supposition, half-truths, and outright lies. There was a site linked above that more or less refutes everything Griffin wrote.

I have read books from every side, Griffin was outright wrong.

 

[LegendKiller]

You want to know why people have such a hard time taking Ron Paul so seriously? This is why.


http://blogs.usatoday.com/onde...11/feds-seize-two.html

NotHaus wants to change U.S. monetary policy so that the value of the dollar doesn't fluctuate. The U.S. Mint says on its website that "it is a Federal crime to utter or pass, or attempt to utter or pass, any coins of gold or silver intended for use as current money except as authorized by law."

Yeah, the value of currency shouldn't fluctuate at all. Because all economies are tied together, all worldwide interest rates are tied together. All currencies will be valued at par, regardless of any other variable that creates relative valuations.

People are such morons about economics.

 

[CitizenKain]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller
You want to know why people have such a hard time taking Ron Paul so seriously? This is why.


http://blogs.usatoday.com/onde...11/feds-seize-two.html

NotHaus wants to change U.S. monetary policy so that the value of the dollar doesn't fluctuate. The U.S. Mint says on its website that "it is a Federal crime to utter or pass, or attempt to utter or pass, any coins of gold or silver intended for use as current money except as authorized by law."

Yeah, the value of currency shouldn't fluctuate at all. Because all economies are tied together, all worldwide interest rates are tied together. All currencies will be valued at par, regardless of any other variable that creates relative valuations.

People are such morons about economics.

Nuts, I was coming here to post that.

 

[event8horizon]

i will be doing some cutting and pasting so beware. im not about to type all this stuff. this is all i can find about who voted which way before christmas:
After months of debates, votes and amendments, the proposed legislation, with 30 sections, was enacted as the Federal Reserve Act. The House, on December 22, 1913, agreed to the conference report on the Federal Reserve Act by a vote of 298 yeas to 60 nays with 76 not voting. The Senate, on December 23, 1913, agreed to it by a vote of 43 yeas to 25 nays with 27 not voting. The record shows that there were no Democrats voting "nay" in the Senate and only two in the House. The record also shows that almost all of those not voting on the bill had previously declared their intentions and were paired with members of opposite intentions.
doesnt sound like very good representation????

now for how it works:

Concerning the Federal Reserve, the Federal Reserve does not loan money to the government directly. The government borrows money by issuing securities which are sold at auction. Anyone can buy these securities, even you. The government pays about 4.5% to 5% interest on the securities. In 2006, the government paid about $405 billion in interest on the approximately $8.5 trillion in debt. The government collected about $1.04 trillion in individual income taxes alone. Those were receipts, not what was due. Now, the Federal Reserve does hold about $800 billion in U.S. Government securities and the government paid approximately $36.5 billion in interest to the Federal Reserve. HOWEVER, the Federal Reserve is required by law to return excess income to the U.S. Treasury. This is a fact commonly overlooked or ignored by conspiracy theorists. In 2006, the Federal Reserve returned $29.1 billion to the U.S. Treasury.

so it looks like our income tax pays for the 405 billion on the interest of the 8.5 trillion. to me that sounds like that those "other parties" outside the fereral reserve system bought these securities. then it pays the salaries and everyday expeditures of the fed along with the interest the fed holds on u.s. securities. then they give the treasury back some....a payoff maybe??hahaha ...am i getting this right??
what does the treasury do with this money. many different departments including the irs are parts of the treausry it looks like. just makes bigger gov.
i say do away with interest bearing ''borrowing".
there are 3 options i can think of
1.destroy the fed
2.continue using fractal reserve banking along with interest bearing capabilities
3.destroy the fed and set up a new system...my choice would be greenbacks. i dont know about ron pauls idea of gold backed currency.
ron paul is right....take down the fed, kill the income tax, that would get rid of the irs. make gov smaller, not bigger.
AND GET THE HELL OUT OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS!!! DAMN NEOCONS!!HAHAHA

nice quote for abe lincoln
?I have two great enemies, the Southern army in front of me and the bankers in the rear. And of the two, the bankers are my greatest foe.?

international bankers will be purged from america

 

[halik]

Originally posted by: CitizenKain

Originally posted by: LegendKiller
You want to know why people have such a hard time taking Ron Paul so seriously? This is why.


http://blogs.usatoday.com/onde...11/feds-seize-two.html

NotHaus wants to change U.S. monetary policy so that the value of the dollar doesn't fluctuate. The U.S. Mint says on its website that "it is a Federal crime to utter or pass, or attempt to utter or pass, any coins of gold or silver intended for use as current money except as authorized by law."

Yeah, the value of currency shouldn't fluctuate at all. Because all economies are tied together, all worldwide interest rates are tied together. All currencies will be valued at par, regardless of any other variable that creates relative valuations.

People are such morons about economics.

Nuts, I was coming here to post that.

Value of the dollar doesn't change... how exactly is he going to accomplish that (in real terms anyway)? Not to mention that it's been tried before and failed (Bretton Woods 71-72).

Having Ron Paul talk about macroeconomy and monetary policy is like having Al Greeenspan do a kidney transplant... bad fucking idea.

 

[CitizenKain]

Originally posted by: event8horizon

there are 3 options i can think of
1.destroy the fed
2.continue using fractal reserve banking along with interest bearing capabilities
3.destroy the fed and set up a new system...my choice would be greenbacks. i dont know about ron pauls idea of gold backed currency.
ron paul is right....take down the fed, kill the income tax, that would get rid of the irs. make gov smaller, not bigger.
AND GET THE HELL OUT OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS!!! DAMN NEOCONS!!HAHAHA

nice quote for abe lincoln
?I have two great enemies, the Southern army in front of me and the bankers in the rear. And of the two, the bankers are my greatest foe.?

international bankers will be purged from america

Is someone going to inform the doctor that you are off your meds?

 

[event8horizon]

im guessin u would like to keep on keeping on??? what part of interest on "borrowing" do u not understand when there is another way.... money that is created by the treasury interest free.

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: CitizenKain

Originally posted by: event8horizon

there are 3 options i can think of
1.destroy the fed
2.continue using fractal reserve banking along with interest bearing capabilities
3.destroy the fed and set up a new system...my choice would be greenbacks. i dont know about ron pauls idea of gold backed currency.
ron paul is right....take down the fed, kill the income tax, that would get rid of the irs. make gov smaller, not bigger.
AND GET THE HELL OUT OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS!!! DAMN NEOCONS!!HAHAHA

nice quote for abe lincoln
?I have two great enemies, the Southern army in front of me and the bankers in the rear. And of the two, the bankers are my greatest foe.?

international bankers will be purged from america

Is someone going to inform the doctor that you are off your meds?

Really, this guy is pretty damn painful. First is his complete inability to form coherent thoughts, then there's the inability to form coherent thoughts into complete sentences.

Finally, whatever he says makes no sense. We have been able to shoot down his arguments at every step. At least the other RonPaulBots just shut up.

What I truly find funny thought is the other Bot's complete absence. They knew they utterly failed at debate and instead of admitting it, just exited the thread.