Should the U.S. Declare Bankruptcy and Default on the National Debt?

Oct 30, 2004
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Now that we have passed the $13 trillion mark, I am wondering whether our nation will eventually declare bankruptcy and default on the national debt.

A huge amount of today's twenty- and thirty-somethings are unemployed or underemployed and will probably never be able to contribute much tax revenue to help pay it off, especially if the nation's economy worsens or remains the way it is now.

Will today's 5 year olds want to pay for it thirty years from now? Is it conceivable that once they acquire political power they will throw their hands up and shout, "We didn't incur this debt! It's not ours! Why should we have to pay for all of this?" and then declare that the national debt is null and void as far as they're concerned?
 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Aug 23, 2003
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Will today's 5 year olds want to pay for it thirty years from now?
Are today's 35 year olds paying for it now?

Should we require users to have an elementary understanding of the complexities regarding governmental debt before they create threads with titles like "Should the U.S. Declare Bankruptcy?!?!"
 

Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
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Won't happen. The world economy would collapse, you'd see knife fights for bread. Like, really fucked up shit.
 

Slew Foot

Lifer
Sep 22, 2005
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So what would happen if tomorrow the government said, F you, were not paying our debts, come and get it.

Worldwide panic?
Dollar collapse?
Lending grinds to a halt?
 

MotF Bane

No Lifer
Dec 22, 2006
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Hell, forget the current five year olds. I'm 20, I've gotten to vote in one federal level election so far. Fuck it, that debt isn't anything I had a say in, at least not until 2007.

Guess what? IRS will still demand taxes, so that's not going to fly. Besides, even if we did wipe out the entire debt, the government would just see it as clearing off a 13 trillion dollar credit card, and go on the largest spending spree the world has ever seen.
 
Oct 30, 2004
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The treasury bonds that China holds would need to be liquidated with some form of collateral. We could offer Hawaii to forgive the debt, and it might be a safer alternative to having them declare war.

I wonder what would happen. Right now China doesn't pose a threat since the Chinese are not suicidal, but what would happen 30 years from now after China has surpassed us and could shoot down all of our nuclear missiles?

"Looky here you American bitches, we want your pink taco, now!"
 

zsdersw

Lifer
Oct 29, 2003
10,505
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Real-life problems always have simple solutions that the average Internet forum user can come up with in 5 minutes or find in a 5-minute Google search. Everyone knows this.
 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Aug 23, 2003
25,375
142
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I wonder what would happen. Right now China doesn't pose a threat since the Chinese are not suicidal, but what would happen 30 years from now after China has surpassed us and could shoot down all of our nuclear missiles?

"Looky here you American bitches, we want your pink taco, now!"
So 30 years from now, today's 5 year olds will make our government declare bankruptcy.

Coincidentally, 30 years from now is also the date when China "surpasses" us and perfects Ronnie's Star Wars system.

What else happens 30 years from now Nostradamus?
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
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Why? We borrowed in our own currency, we can always just print more to repay it. Inflation is better than a US default.
 
Oct 30, 2004
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JPeyton, this is all just hypothetical intellectual masturbation intended for amusement purposes. I don't know what will happen 30 years from now, but speculating about it makes for interesting entertainment.
 
Oct 30, 2004
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Can you declare bankruptcy if:

assets + income > liabilties

You can go through a legal process in bankruptcy court where it can be determined how much of that you should have to give up in order to discharge the debt. Filing for bankruptcy doesn't mean that you get to keep everything. I don't know as much about bankruptcy law as I would like, but I think there is a federal minimum amount of money and types of assets that you can protect and then one for each state and that petitioners can choose which one they want based on how much money they have and what types and values of assets they want to protect. Sometimes it makes sense to go with the federal plan and sometimes it's better to go with the state plan.

When you're talking about nations, there really aren't any laws. I mean, the U.S. could say, "I am the law! We're declaring this debt to be null and void. What are you going to do about it?"
 

zephyrprime

Diamond Member
Feb 18, 2001
7,512
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Let me just point out that the US has devalued it's currency before by money printing in various forms. It will happen again.

Let's have a little monetary lesson.

In the US and most other countries, money is created privately by banks, NOT by the government. The government merely prints dollar bills to satisfy bank requirements for withdrawals but these bills are matched by bank credit which is the true form of money in the economy (NOT bills).

1861 - Congress prints Demand Notes.
1862 - Congress prints Greenbacks.
1936 - Roosevelt devalues the dollar by increasing supply by about 100%. Still not enough to stop the depression.
1946 - Truman devalues the dollar by increasing the supply by another ~100%. Because of the Brenton Woods system, the dollar had a new source of demand from europe and japan to rebuild those economies thus counteracting the typical price inflation of imported goods that occurs when a currency is devalued. The money supply had to increase by ~300% and the government had to force people back into the labor force during ww2 to finally stop the depression. The Dollar is still the reserve currency of the world and the medium of international trade.

Currently, M1 money supply has increased by about 100% but M3 has shrunk by about 11% nonetheless because banks are not making loans. Banks cannot make more loans because they lost too much money during the subprime mess. The US consumer and government cannot take on any more debt anyway since servicing costs are at their limit.

The only solution is to reduce debt one way or another.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
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Hell no! At least not yet, we aren't gonna pay it back but as long as they are dumb enough to loan it to us I say we keep on spending it till they finally figure out the obvious and cut us off. Then we default.
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
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Your situation isn't nearly that dire. That said, if you did...

Economics focus: Default settings

IN DECEMBER 2001 Argentina defaulted on $81.8 billion of sovereign debt, after months of turmoil in the country’s banking system. That led to the abandonment of its exchange-rate regime and a sharp devaluation of the peso. Argentina’s GDP plummeted by 10.9% that year. It has been locked out of international capital markets ever since.

In Greece such tales now have a worrying resonance. Despite raising $6.7 billion on bond markets on March 29th, the scale of the country’s financing needs means that an eventual default cannot be ruled out. Both Greece’s 2009 budget deficit, at 12.7% of GDP, and its debt-to-GDP ratio of 113.4% are higher than the corresponding figures for any sovereign defaulter between 1998 and 2001.

If the worst were to happen, how much pain might it suffer as a result?

In theory, default should be costly. The damage it causes is the main incentive for debtor countries to honour their promises. Yet there are clearly lots of occasions when governments judge that the benefits of defaulting outweigh the costs. An IMF study by Eduardo Borensztein and Ugo Panizza counts as many as 257 sovereign defaults between 1824 and 2004. Between 1981 and 1990 alone, there were 74 defaults (see chart).

In fact, the evidence suggests that the penalties for default are often less severe than those meted out to Argentina. Its experience of being shunned by international capital markets is not typical, for example. At least in recent years defaulters have been able to re-enter markets once debt restructuring is complete. Argentina’s woes stem partly from the fact that it is only now, more than eight years since it defaulted, nearing a final deal with its creditors (see article).

Defaulting does affect the cost of funds to a country. A study in 2006 by a trio of economists at the Bank of England found that countries which defaulted between 1970 and 2000 had both a higher bond spread and a lower credit rating in 2003-05 than countries with the same debt-to-GDP ratio which did not default. In their study Messrs Borensztein and Panizza show that having defaulted is associated with a credit-rating downgrade of nearly two notches.

Using data for 1972-2000, they also find sizeable jumps in bond spreads after a default. In the first year spreads widen on average by four percentage points. This additional cost declines to 2.5 percentage points the year after. These figures may understate the pain, however: as the Greek case shows, worries about default are enough in themselves to lead to an extended period of high spreads.

That said, markets appear to have short memories. Only the most recent defaults matter and the effects on spreads are short-lived. Messrs Borensztein and Panizza find that credit ratings between 1999 and 2002 were affected only by defaults since 1995. They find that defaults have no significant effect on bond spreads after the second year.

This tallies with earlier research by Barry Eichengreen and Richard Portes. Studying bonds issued in the 1920s, they also found that recent defaults resulted in higher spreads but more distant ones had no effect.
 
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Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
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Why? We borrowed in our own currency, we can always just print more to repay it. Inflation is better than a US default.

Worst idea ever.

The majority of our spending is from social programs. The majority of those social programs, the big one being social security, is indexed to inflation. So your idea is to inflate away 13T in debt, much of which is owned by foreign entities, and increase mandatory spending on social programs by 10 times that a year??? The only option then would be to drastically cut the entitlement spending or remove its index to inflation which would have the same affect if we intentionally inflate the hell out of our currency.

Oh yeah, we kinda import a fuckton of stuff that we can't really live without.

At the end of the day its all irrelevant if we can't figure out how to live within our means. Defaulting gets rid of the debt but we won't be able to run trillion dollar deficits every year simply to cover day to day .gov operations like we currently do. IMO, we will not make the decision to default on our debt, the bond market will eventually make the decision for us.
 
Dec 30, 2004
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we're nowhere near needing to do that. Maybe in 10 years. Until then China, Japan, and Germany are all pushing for policies in their boarders that are driving them further down the export road.

You can't export unless someone else with another currency is willing to buy.

Which means we're going to be incurring even larger trade deficits.