Should the superdeligates go for Sanders?

[dank69]

What about the DNC deciding it only needed 6 debates, held on weekends when nobody would be watching? When hillary and obama had 28 in 2008 during prime time? That's just one example how they silenced Bernie.

Was that uncovered in the emails? Or is that just you speculating about their reasons? All 6 debates were practically a word for word rehash of each other anyway. If you wanted to see the same thing 22 more times just put it on repeat. The difference between then and now is that most people don't watch that shit live anyway. People DVR it or watch it on youtube. Also, at least one of the debates was during prime time and at least one of the GOP debates was also held on a weekend. Were you outraged about that, too?

 

[Fanatical Meat]

What about the DNC deciding it only needed 6 debates, held on weekends when nobody would be watching? When hillary and obama had 28 in 2008 during prime time? That's just one example how they silenced Bernie.

It back fired because polling proved Hillary did better than Bernie in the debates.

 

[Moonbeam]

dank69: Okay, I understand what you are asking now. If we assume the blogger is correct and that Hillary will lose if she is the candidate for the Democrats and she knows she will lose and she knows Sanders would win, then she should step down. However, that would be her choice alone. We would all be well within our rights to try to convince her to do the right thing, but it would be immoral for anyone to interfere or block her rightful nomination.

M: That is also the conclusion that I reached.

d: To extend this into complete absurdity to drive my point home, imagine there was a candidate whose only platform policy was that when elected he would have the military exterminate all US citizens and imagine that this candidate was actually getting enough support that it was likely that he was going to win. It would be immoral for us to try to change/game the system in any way to stop this from happening. It is every person's right to vote for whatever they think is in their best interests, even if they think extermination of the human race including themselves is in their best interests.

M: My dear dank, never push someone willing to die for the truth into a corner. I vow to save all sentient beings and you have no say in the matter.

d: Getting back to reality, Republicans smashed their party elites because they deserved to be smashed. They have deserved that fate for a long time. Democrat elites are nowhere near the level of corruption that the whole party needs to be smashed. It's not even close.

M: That is an opinion that many would dispute. What is not even close for you is for others simply a lack of vision.

 

[Moonbeam]

Imagine if the emails had revealed a tremendous dedication to insuring that Sanders had as much chance of winning as Clinton. That would be a party worth supporting. But what do we get instead, a fucking pie in the face. But we are all too human and have so many human failings, right? Democrats have sold their souls to the wealthy. In the first month of Clinton's Presidency she has promised a big change. A big change is coming if she wins so remember that, or will hope turn to tears? We shall perhaps see and perhaps not from our newly minted progressive.

 

[dank69]

dank69: Okay, I understand what you are asking now. If we assume the blogger is correct and that Hillary will lose if she is the candidate for the Democrats and she knows she will lose and she knows Sanders would win, then she should step down. However, that would be her choice alone. We would all be well within our rights to try to convince her to do the right thing, but it would be immoral for anyone to interfere or block her rightful nomination.

M: That is also the conclusion that I reached.

d: To extend this into complete absurdity to drive my point home, imagine there was a candidate whose only platform policy was that when elected he would have the military exterminate all US citizens and imagine that this candidate was actually getting enough support that it was likely that he was going to win. It would be immoral for us to try to change/game the system in any way to stop this from happening. It is every person's right to vote for whatever they think is in their best interests, even if they think extermination of the human race including themselves is in their best interests.

M: My dear dank, never push someone willing to die for the truth into a corner. I vow to save all sentient beings and you have no say in the matter.

d: Getting back to reality, Republicans smashed their party elites because they deserved to be smashed. They have deserved that fate for a long time. Democrat elites are nowhere near the level of corruption that the whole party needs to be smashed. It's not even close.

M: That is an opinion that many would dispute. What is not even close for you is for others simply a lack of vision.

I admit I am not smart enough to understand what you mean by the bolded answer and how it relates to the part of my post quoted directly above it. Can you break it down for me a bit more?

I will say I am a bit surprised by you during this election cycle. I am a Bernie supporter. I think he did a great thing this year. I think even he is proud of what he accomplished, not just by how many votes he got, but by what he was able to get into the official DNC platform because of it.

What I don't understand is this: What is so bad about Hillary? What has she done? For example, was everything Bill said about her last night a lie? Has she not devoted a large portion of her life to making things better for other people? Does she not really support most of the policies that Bernie supports? I have seen a lot of shit flung at her and nothing seems to have actually stuck. Is this due to liberal conspiracy? Or is it more likely that all this shit that is coming from Republicans is made up? I tend to think it's the latter since they can't seem to make a single statement that doesn't include at least one whopper these days.

 

[dank69]

Imagine if the emails had revealed a tremendous dedication to insuring that Sanders had as much chance of winning as Clinton. That would be a party worth supporting. But what do we get instead, a fucking pie in the face. But we are all too human and have so many human failings, right? Democrats have sold their souls to the wealthy. In the first month of Clinton's Presidency she has promised a big change. A big change is coming if she wins so remember that, or will hope turn to tears? We shall perhaps see and perhaps not from our newly minted progressive.

What was so damning in those emails? I was actually surprised at the lack of scandal coming from the release.

I am heading out to golf now, but I'll be back later to read your replies.

 

[Moonbeam]

What was so damning in those emails? I was actually surprised at the lack of scandal coming from the release.

I am heading out to golf now, but I'll be back later to read your replies.

The thing about the emails that was so damning was the fact that they were reported as being damning causing many Sanders supporters to become even more certain they had been played unfairly. What was so damning is that the team you thought you were on treated some with what was described as unfairness. At a time when the party was supposed to unite in a grand unifying aim to keep Trump from power the reason that many many people thought was important, the elimination of the hold wealth has on power, just seemed to have been amplified by being shit on. They wanted idealists to vote and acted with less than idealism, internally according to the reports.

Look at the world of politics. I see two forces at work, the notion that government can be good and the struggle of some to have power. One is noble and one creates the will to justify its attainment by any means. These are incompatible because one is noble and one is evil.

At the core of the human soul is the sacred light of God for which each of us seeks, either by walking forward toward it or by walking backwards in denial of one's worthiness. It is the hope that love is real that drives us forward and the surety it is not that drives us back. Let us seek to magnify the former and lessen the latter. Nobody seeks his own destruction who has not been made to feel that way. In the land of truth the votes of people who are deceived do not count for anything.

 

[Moonbeam]

dank69: I admit I am not smart enough to understand what you mean by the bolded answer My dear dank, never push someone willing to die for the truth into a corner. I vow to save all sentient beings and you have no say in the matter. and how it relates to the part of my post quoted directly above it. Can you break it down for me a bit more?

M: Don't blame yourself. It's not a subject about which I would willingly want to be clear. Suffice it to say that I am deeply convinced that live is good and that I couldn't stand by and watch somebody with potential to enjoy it, willingly elect for that option. I would stop them as willingly as I would shoot a person about commit a murder if given the opportunity. It is best for me that no such opportunity arise. I used to know the blackness of despair.

d: I will say I am a bit surprised by you during this election cycle. I am a Bernie supporter. I think he did a great thing this year. I think even he is proud of what he accomplished, not just by how many votes he got, but by what he was able to get into the official DNC platform because of it.

M: I think we experience a different sense of urgency.

d: What I don't understand is this: What is so bad about Hillary? What has she done? For example, was everything Bill said about her last night a lie? Has she not devoted a large portion of her life to making things better for other people? Does she not really support most of the policies that Bernie supports? I have seen a lot of shit flung at her and nothing seems to have actually stuck. Is this due to liberal conspiracy? Or is it more likely that all this shit that is coming from Republicans is made up? I tend to think it's the latter since they can't seem to make a single statement that doesn't include at least one whopper these days.

M: I do not know the truth of Hillary. Her motives are known only to herself. What concerns me is that to vote for her one would ideally have confidence that se is a positive force, both in reality and in perception. It is the perception thingi that troubles me. It has become a race to salvage a damaged image. Sanders does not seem to me to have a credibility issue. People may not like what he stands for but I think they think he stands for what he says he does. Those who like his message or believe he will be swayed by facts rather than ideology, would have that precious thing I call hope and idealism. A Sanders candidacy would not leave the feeling that the sacred progressive dream of progress was shit on again.

 

[dank69]

The thing about the emails that was so damning was the fact that they were reported as being damning causing many Sanders supporters to become even more certain they had been played unfairly. What was so damning is that the team you thought you were on treated some with what was described as unfairness. At a time when the party was supposed to unite in a grand unifying aim to keep Trump from power the reason that many many people thought was important, the elimination of the hold wealth has on power, just seemed to have been amplified by being shit on. They wanted idealists to vote and acted with less than idealism, internally according to the reports.

Look at the world of politics. I see two forces at work, the notion that government can be good and the struggle of some to have power. One is noble and one creates the will to justify its attainment by any means. These are incompatible because one is noble and one is evil.

At the core of the human soul is the sacred light of God for which each of us seeks, either by walking forward toward it or by walking backwards in denial of one's worthiness. It is the hope that love is real that drives us forward and the surety it is not that drives us back. Let us seek to magnify the former and lessen the latter. Nobody seeks his own destruction who has not been made to feel that way. In the land of truth the votes of people who are deceived do not count for anything.

I am frustrated Moonbeam. I'm frustrated because your first sentence sums up this issue perfectly. The emails are damning because they were reported as damning; basically because people said so. Never mind that when we examine the evidence there was nothing damning found at all. "Some people say," as The Donald is fond of saying. The actual evidence shows that someone asked if they should use Bernie's religion against him...

Let's not pretend that Bernie was some fucking saint during this process. He accused Hillary of being in Wall Street's pocket simply because she was paid to do some speeches, clamoring for her to release the transcripts of those speeches as if we are going to find her saying what exactly? Let's assume she is a scumbag witch from the deepest levels of hell. Do you think she would be stupid enough to say something diabolical during those speeches that could have been recorded? You know what is actually likely? She likely gave a motivational speech or maybe even told them why it was important for them not to repeat past mistakes.

So where is your criticism of Bernie? Why was he being so divisive? Weren't Republicans flinging enough unsupported accusations at her that he needed to pile on one more? What about his campaign stealing her info?

Sorry, but politics is a quagmire of shit, and Bernie has shown that even he can play that game. Maybe Warren is above the fray? But now she has endorsed the shebeast as well. Does that make her human garbage now? A sell out?

If you are hoping for a perfect angel to swoop in and save us I'm afraid you will never be happy. We are on our own here and every human is flawed. Even if Harvey Dent comes along there is a good chance he'll eventually become two-faced. What we need to focus on, if we want to make lives better, are the policies these people are pushing and the policies these people are blocking. That is how we will make real progress.

 

[dank69]

dank69: I admit I am not smart enough to understand what you mean by the bolded answer My dear dank, never push someone willing to die for the truth into a corner. I vow to save all sentient beings and you have no say in the matter. and how it relates to the part of my post quoted directly above it. Can you break it down for me a bit more?

M: Don't blame yourself. It's not a subject about which I would willingly want to be clear. Suffice it to say that I am deeply convinced that live is good and that I couldn't stand by and watch somebody with potential to enjoy it, willingly elect for that option. I would stop them as willingly as I would shoot a person about commit a murder if given the opportunity. It is best for me that no such opportunity arise. I used to know the blackness of despair.

I think I may have figured out what you were saying and how it relates to that part of my post. I think you were saying that you are the person willing to die for the truth and that my absurd candidate would be pushing you into a corner that would force you to act to save lives. I want you to consider something first. Maybe it is possible that nothing in this life matters except our integrity, and integrity is defined simply as respecting other people's opinions no matter how absurd they may seem to us. Maybe our lives really aren't precious. Maybe Jesus actually existed and maybe he was right.

d: I will say I am a bit surprised by you during this election cycle. I am a Bernie supporter. I think he did a great thing this year. I think even he is proud of what he accomplished, not just by how many votes he got, but by what he was able to get into the official DNC platform because of it.

M: I think we experience a different sense of urgency.

I think that is clear.

d: What I don't understand is this: What is so bad about Hillary? What has she done? For example, was everything Bill said about her last night a lie? Has she not devoted a large portion of her life to making things better for other people? Does she not really support most of the policies that Bernie supports? I have seen a lot of shit flung at her and nothing seems to have actually stuck. Is this due to liberal conspiracy? Or is it more likely that all this shit that is coming from Republicans is made up? I tend to think it's the latter since they can't seem to make a single statement that doesn't include at least one whopper these days.

M: I do not know the truth of Hillary. Her motives are known only to herself. What concerns me is that to vote for her one would ideally have confidence that se is a positive force, both in reality and in perception. It is the perception thingi that troubles me. It has become a race to salvage a damaged image. Sanders does not seem to me to have a credibility issue. People may not like what he stands for but I think they think he stands for what he says he does. Those who like his message or believe he will be swayed by facts rather than ideology, would have that precious thing I call hope and idealism. A Sanders candidacy would not leave the feeling that the sacred progressive dream of progress was shit on again.

Well it concerns me that it doesn't seem important to you to give Hillary the benefit of the doubt and work hard to point out whenever possible that all of the mud that is on her comes directly from compulsive liars. Instead it seems you want everyone to capitulate to people throwing childish tantrums induced by a constant barrage of propaganda. I will not capitulate. I will fight the misinformation and hope that these brats will come to their senses when confronted by the truth.

 

[Moonbeam]

I am frustrated Moonbeam. I'm frustrated because your first sentence sums up this issue perfectly. The emails are damning because they were reported as damning; basically because people said so. Never mind that when we examine the evidence there was nothing damning found at all. "Some people say," as The Donald is fond of saying. The actual evidence shows that someone asked if they should use Bernie's religion against him...

Let's not pretend that Bernie was some fucking saint during this process. He accused Hillary of being in Wall Street's pocket simply because she was paid to do some speeches, clamoring for her to release the transcripts of those speeches as if we are going to find her saying what exactly? Let's assume she is a scumbag witch from the deepest levels of hell. Do you think she would be stupid enough to say something diabolical during those speeches that could have been recorded? You know what is actually likely? She likely gave a motivational speech or maybe even told them why it was important for them not to repeat past mistakes.

So where is your criticism of Bernie? Why was he being so divisive? Weren't Republicans flinging enough unsupported accusations at her that he needed to pile on one more? What about his campaign stealing her info?

Sorry, but politics is a quagmire of shit, and Bernie has shown that even he can play that game. Maybe Warren is above the fray? But now she has endorsed the shebeast as well. Does that make her human garbage now? A sell out?

If you are hoping for a perfect angel to swoop in and save us I'm afraid you will never be happy. We are on our own here and every human is flawed. Even if Harvey Dent comes along there is a good chance he'll eventually become two-faced. What we need to focus on, if we want to make lives better, are the policies these people are pushing and the policies these people are blocking. That is how we will make real progress.

We see two different things. You have hope of progress and so do I. But we differ in how we see what that is. You hope for progress out there in the world via slow evolution. I say the rate of change and our ability to adapt slowly are at odds with one another. I believe that conscious evolution is a result of need and that need is thus what we need more of. Down is the way up. Conscious evolution happens best in my opinion, when one is faced with the hopelessness of ones condition, the utter abandonment that incremental change will lead to anything. I defeated the Nothing by surrendering to it. I already saved the world, the only world there is, the one that is projected on the silence of my conscious awareness. There's nothing for me to do here but share that with you. I am when I am not.

You seek slow progress, fine by me. We are what we eat, a reflection of our experiences. Just know that you seek what is better, perfection let us say, because it is already in your possession. The kingdom of heaven is where you have always been. You seek not because you are an optimist but because you were born in the Garden of Eden and the memory of it is hidden within you.

 

[Moonbeam]

dank69: I think I may have figured out what you were saying and how it relates to that part of my post. I think you were saying that you are the person willing to die for the truth and that my absurd candidate would be pushing you into a corner that would force you to act to save lives.

M: I am a nobody and would prefer to stay that way. I fear being tempted. I do not want the One Ring anywhere near me.

d: I want you to consider something first. Maybe it is possible that nothing in this life matters except our integrity, and integrity is defined simply as respecting other people's opinions no matter how absurd they may seem to us. Maybe our lives really aren't precious. Maybe Jesus actually existed and maybe he was right.

M: I think a Zen master wrote this on the death of his son:

"This little dew drop world

It may be only a dew drop

And yet and yet"

I think that is clear.

You to the dew drop world, me to my and yet and yet.

You might like a Kurosawa film called Red Beard.

And you might want to take a look at the Statue of Justice why, besides a scale, there is a sword in her hand.

d: Well it concerns me that it doesn't seem important to you to give Hillary the benefit of the doubt and work hard to point out whenever possible that all of the mud that is on her comes directly from compulsive liars. Instead it seems you want everyone to capitulate to people throwing childish tantrums induced by a constant barrage of propaganda. I will not capitulate. I will fight the misinformation and hope that these brats will come to their senses when confronted by the truth.

Your truth, not mine. I am more concerned, as in my previous post, with a different set of facts.

 

[dank69]

We see two different things. You have hope of progress and so do I. But we differ in how we see what that is. You hope for progress out there in the world via slow evolution. I say the rate of change and our ability to adapt slowly are at odds with one another. I believe that conscious evolution is a result of need and that need is thus what we need more of. Down is the way up. Conscious evolution happens best in my opinion, when one is faced with the hopelessness of ones condition, the utter abandonment that incremental change will lead to anything. I defeated the Nothing by surrendering to it. I already saved the world, the only world there is, the one that is projected on the silence of my conscious awareness. There's nothing for me to do here but share that with you. I am when I am not.

You seek slow progress, fine by me. We are what we eat, a reflection of our experiences. Just know that you seek what is better, perfection let us say, because it is already in your possession. The kingdom of heaven is where you have always been. You seek not because you are an optimist but because you were born in the Garden of Eden and the memory of it is hidden within you.

I am not convinced that everyone needs to hit rock bottom in order to be free. While I can't claim to be entirely free of ego, I can be conscious of how it motivates me. I can work hard to identify when my ego might be getting in the way of discovering and accepting evidence that might be inconvenient.

I have two beautiful little daughters aged 4 and 2 who I am trying very hard to let be who they truly are. To not force them to conform to what society expects us to be, but instead lead by example and show them that being good for the sake of being good is the true path to real, lasting happiness. I admit, it is a difficult task, but I do my best. I'd prefer the country not be burned to the ground around them just because some people think we will get to some mythical "good times" a lot faster.

 

[Moonbeam]

I am not convinced that everyone needs to hit rock bottom in order to be free. While I can't claim to be entirely free of ego, I can be conscious of how it motivates me. I can work hard to identify when my ego might be getting in the way of discovering and accepting evidence that might be inconvenient.

I have two beautiful little daughters aged 4 and 2 who I am trying very hard to let be who they truly are. To not force them to conform to what society expects us to be, but instead lead by example and show them that being good for the sake of being good is the true path to real, lasting happiness. I admit, it is a difficult task, but I do my best. I'd prefer the country not be burned to the ground around them just because some people think we will get to some mythical "good times" a lot faster.

We create what we fear. Those who fear the country will burn to the ground are those who will cause it. You seek to prevent the burning when it is the fear alone that you can prevent. It happens via surrender, the realization that there is nothing the ego can do, that all is but a dew drop that passes away, like tears in the rain or sand through your fingers. To die to hope, all of ones ego dreams, is to awaken to love, that which the Nothing can never take.

But perhaps you can manage to jump over the pit and go straight there. I hope you can.