Should the NFL and NBA be classified as "Non-Profit Organizations"?

Ryan

Lifer
Oct 31, 2000
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Here's a little history: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brian-frederick/nfl-tax-exempt_b_1321635.html


Section 501(c)(6) of the Internal Revenue Code provides for the exemption of business leagues, chambers of commerce, real estate boards, boards of trade and professional football leagues, which are not organized for profit and no part of the net earnings of which inures to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual.

Speaking of being in an uproar about professional sports player salaries, should these organizations be allowed to operate as non-profits when they are clearly generating incredible amounts of $$$$? Do they deserve a tax-exempt status in your mind?
 
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actuarial

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Jan 22, 2009
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Here's a little history: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brian-frederick/nfl-tax-exempt_b_1321635.html

Speaking of being in an uproar about professional sports player salaries, should these organizations be allowed to operate as non-profits when they are clearly generating incredible amounts of $$$$?

I don't think this means what you think it means.

NBA/NFL teams are not non-profits, just like a bank becoming a member of a chamber of commerce does not suddenly make it non-profit.

The 'league' itself doesn't make money (who are the owners?) and anything distributed to the teams would be included in that team's revenue for tax purposes.
 

xBiffx

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2011
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Got news for you. There are plenty of non-profits out there who generate a shit ton more $$$$ than professional sports. They just sink it all back into research.

Faux outrage on this one.
 

Ryan

Lifer
Oct 31, 2000
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Got news for you. There are plenty of non-profits out there who generate a shit ton more $$$$ than professional sports. They just sink it all back into research.

Faux outrage on this one.

There is a difference between sinking your money in research, and sinking your money into the salaries of your executives.
 

xBiffx

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2011
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There is a difference between sinking your money in research, and sinking your money into the salaries of your executives.

Those same non profits have executives that take home seven figure salaries. It all doesn't go back into research. I personally know quite a few people who personally profit nicely even if the non profit they work for doesn't.
 

actuarial

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Jan 22, 2009
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There is a difference between sinking your money in research, and sinking your money into the salaries of your executives.

Not if the executive is independent of the owners. Why should you not get to deduct the salary of your employees like every other business?
 

Fern

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Sep 30, 2003
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Here's a little history: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brian-frederick/nfl-tax-exempt_b_1321635.html




Speaking of being in an uproar about professional sports player salaries, should these organizations be allowed to operate as non-profits when they are clearly generating incredible amounts of $$$$? Do they deserve a tax-exempt status in your mind?

Not sure the author knows what he's talking about. E.g.:

How much and what gets taxed is just not publicly available. And it should be if the NFL is going to enjoy tax-exempt status.

That's wrong. Nonprofits must make their tax returns available to whomever asks:

Exempt Organization Public Disclosure and Availability Requirements

Tax-exempt organizations must make annual returns and exemption applications filed with the IRS available for public inspection and copying upon request. In addition, the IRS makes these documents available. The questions below relate to the public disclosure and availability of documents filed by tax-exempt organizations with the IRS.

http://www.irs.gov/Charities-&-Non-...blic-Disclosure-and-Availability-Requirements

Fern
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
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Here's a little history: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brian-frederick/nfl-tax-exempt_b_1321635.html

Speaking of being in an uproar about professional sports player salaries, should these organizations be allowed to operate as non-profits when they are clearly generating incredible amounts of $$$$? Do they deserve a tax-exempt status in your mind?

Check out this part of your own quote:

no part of the net earnings of which inures to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual.

I'm not all that familiar with the NFL. But it seems like a collective to me, thus a nonprofit.

Teams get a deduction for dues paid. Dues paid-in seem to go out as taxable salaries. If so, there's no difference between them being a for-profit versus a non-profit.

If the NFL were building large cash reserves you'd have a point because that would represent either untaxed or tax deferred profits. I'm not sure why the owners would allow the NFL to hold on to what is essentially their money, at least any amount beyond what is reasonable for ordinary and necessary businesses purposes.

Fern
 

Attic

Diamond Member
Jan 9, 2010
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NASCAR gets same treatment AFAIK.

No they shouldn't be classified as non profit, because the are for profit. Looks black and white to me.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
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-snip-
No they shouldn't be classified as non profit, because the are for profit. Looks black and white to me.

In what way are they a for-profit?

The NFL is a money loser. Here's a copy of their 2009 tax return, the most recent I found (it was linked in the OP's article): http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2010/131/922/2010-131922622-0706081b-9O.pdf

They have an Net Loss of $42 million for that year. See page 1, line 19.

They have an accumulated loss (total aggregate gain or less since year #1) of $175 million. See pg 1 line 22, and pg 11 line 32.

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This is much ado about nothing. Uncle Sam is happy they are a nonprofit, otherwise those losses would be tax deductible and would have generated a refund of about $61 million. As it stands now Uncle Sam is ahead.

Fern
 

Ryan

Lifer
Oct 31, 2000
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In what way are they a for-profit?

The NFL is a money loser. Here's a copy of their 2009 tax return, the most recent I found (it was linked in the OP's article): http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2010/131/922/2010-131922622-0706081b-9O.pdf

They have an Net Loss of $42 million for that year. See page 1, line 19.

They have an accumulated loss (total aggregate gain or less since year #1) of $175 million. See pg 1 line 22, and pg 11 line 32.

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This is much ado about nothing. Uncle Sam is happy they are a nonprofit, otherwise those losses would be tax deductible and would have generated a refund of about $61 million. As it stands now Uncle Sam is ahead.

Fern


Like the article said - the only reason they are in the red is because of the millions they pay to their executives.

These leagues exist to make money - there is no altruistic goal, no benefit to society to deserve the such an exemption. Their whole existance is to make money.

It looks like a Republican Senator Agrees too: http://readersupportednews.org/news...nization-but-one-senator-wants-to-change-that-

klahoma Sen. Tom Coburn (R) today introduced an amendment to the Marketplace Fairness Act that would end the practice of allowing professional sports leagues to qualify as tax-exempt organizations, a move that would hit leagues like the National Football League, the Professional Golfers Association (PGA) Tour, and the National Hockey League, among others.

Since 1966, the tax code has allowed leagues to classify as 501(c)(6) charitable organizations - a classification used by trade and industry organizations - under the assumption that the leagues were promoting the general value of their sports. But Coburn's amendment asserts that the leagues are not non-profits engaged in the promotion of their sports but instead are businesses interested solely in the promotion of their business; that is, the NFL isn't so much concerned about promoting the general sport of football as it is concerned with promoting NFL football, because it is the NFL brand and the NFL teams and logos and products that make it a profitable business. The NFL, for instance, didn't seem interested in promoting the general spread of football when a competitor league, the United States Football League, was formed in 1983. Likewise, the PGA Tour, NHL, and other sports leagues serve to promote their brand of their sports, not the sport as a whole.

Further, the leagues hardly pay their executives as if they are non-profits. The NFL paid $51.5 million to just eight executives in 2010, according to Coburn, and other leagues are similar - PGA commissioner Tim Finchem made $5.2 million that year, while NHL commissioner Gary Bettman took home $4.3 million.

In his 2012 Waste Book that chronicled government waste, Coburn said that taxpayers were losing as much as $91 million a year subsidizing professional sports leagues because of their non-profit status:
The National Football League (NFL), the National Hockey League (NHL), and the Professional Golfers’ Association (PGA) classify themselves as non-profit organizations to exempt themselves from federal income taxes on earnings. Smaller sports leagues, such as the National Lacrosse League, are also using the tax status. Taxpayers may be losing at least $91 million subsidizing these tax loopholes for professional sports leagues that generate billions of dollars annually in profits. Taxpayers should not be asked to subsidize sports organizations already benefiting widely from willing fans and turning a profit, while claiming to be non-profit organizations.​
The 501(c)(6) provision, specifically amended in 1966 to add "professional football leagues," states that "[n]o part of a business league's net earnings may inure to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual and it may not be organized for profit to engage in an activity ordinarily carried on for profit." That would seem a hard standard for most professional leagues to meet, given the amount of revenue they make and the benefits they provide to the people involved. Individual team owners, in fact, benefit substantially from the league's structure and even its classification as a non-profit organization.

NFL teams pay membership dues totaling roughly $6 million per team, but they are allowed to write those off for tax purposes as donations to a charitable organization. As Andrew Delaney explained in the Vermont Law Review in 2010, the NFL, which collected $192 million in revenue largely through membership dues in 2009, then pours much of that money back into a stadium fund that allows owners to access interest-free loans as long as they secure taxpayer financing for either new stadiums or improvements to existing facilities. The NFL's dues, then, go almost solely toward the enrichment of its franchise owners even as they are exempt from federal taxation (and often from state and local taxation as well). Taxpayers get hit on two fronts: not only do they lose out on federal tax revenues, they also end up footing the bill for new stadiums and stadium improvements (most recently in Atlanta and Minnesota, with ongoing efforts in Miami and other cities). But all of the benefit, much of which comes from the tax-exempt status, goes to owners and the NFL, as Delaney explained:
Technically, the city owns the stadium. Personal seat licenses or PSLs are sold through a public agency, tax-free. Profits are then used to pay down the owner’s share of the NFL loan. The money from the PSLs never goes directly to the teams, though the teams save millions of dollars in taxes and the loan from the NFL is paid down significantly, providing a very significant benefit to the owners.​
Removing the tax-exempt status would force the leagues to acknowledge the reality that they are businesses, and they would be taxed as such. For the NFL, that would mean that membership dues and assessments would no longer be tax exempt, according to Delaney, and the profits run through the NFL's or PGA's tax-exempt organizations no longer would be either (the NFL runs multiple for-profit organizations, such as NFL Films, in addition to its non-profit partner). Instead, the leagues would be taxed much like corporations, and a wide range of tax write-offs would be available just as they are to other corporations. They would still be able to operate the charitable organizations they already have as tax-exempt 501(c)(3) charities.

It's unclear how much of a benefit ending the tax-exempt status of professional sports leagues would bring directly to taxpayers, largely because the complexity of how the leagues have structured their businesses makes it hard to know how much they benefit directly from being tax-exempt (Major League Baseball claims that giving up its tax-exempt status in 2007 had no effect on its annual taxes, but there's no way to know for sure).

So what makes the NFL any different than the MLB? Why does the NFL deserve this exemption?
 

Fern

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Sep 30, 2003
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Like the article said - the only reason they are in the red is because of the millions they pay to their executives.

And the execs are paying taxes on those wages (35% plus Medicare portion too).

This why the federal govt actually benefits financially from the NFL being classified as a nonprofit.

These leagues exist to make money - there is no altruistic goal, no benefit to society to deserve the such an exemption. Their whole existance is to make money.

No the NFL (the nonprofit) does not exist to make a profit. And nonprofits are not limited to "altruistic goals" or benefits to society. Section 501, the section of tax law that specifies nonprofits has something like 26 different types. A 501(c)(3) is but one, and is the (primary) one for charitable orgs. So, there are about 25 other types.

E.g., You live in a private neighborhood with a Home owners Association ("HOA"). HOAs will collect dues from homeowners there and use that money to build new sidewalks or whatever. There is no benefit to society etc, but it is a nonprofit. HOAs are a collective, in other words they are a way to allow people to collaborate on a project and are used as a conduit to funnel funds for a purpose. They help the neighbors in the community manage their personal business.

Likewise, the NFL (nonprofit org) is a collective for the various teams and helps them manage the business of professional football. It would be cumbersome and problematic if all the teams had to, e.g., each pay 1/32 of the salary for the commissioner and rules officials etc. So, Congress has permitted the owners to have a collective (the NFL nonprofit) to help funnel funds (which are then taxable) and manage the collective group of owners.

So, no, the NFL is not in existence to make money (a profit), and, in fact, it does not as their tax returns demonstrate.

So what makes the NFL any different than the MLB? Why does the NFL deserve this exemption?

I don't know. Maybe MLB realized they get a financial benefit from NOT being a nonprofit?

Again, because this is actually costing the individual NFL team owners money there is no 'exemption" to speak of. I don't know why the owners agreed to this, unless they felt they needed to make some concession to Congress to induce them to grant them what is basically a monopoly.

Fern
 

Attic

Diamond Member
Jan 9, 2010
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I'd rather be paid from a company that enjoys generous tax breaks than not. Obviously id likely be paid more and paying high taxes on more money is better than high taxes alone. The execs can make their huge sums of money because the NFL is non profit. Looks and smells like a loophole to me.
 

Ryan

Lifer
Oct 31, 2000
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I'd rather be paid from a company that enjoys generous tax breaks than not. Obviously id likely be paid more and paying high taxes on more money is better than high taxes alone. The execs can make their huge sums of money because the NFL is non profit. Looks and smells like a loophole to me.

It is a loophole - it was carved out specifically for this organization in the 1960's.
 

Ryan

Lifer
Oct 31, 2000
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And the execs are paying taxes on those wages (35% plus Medicare portion too).

This why the federal govt actually benefits financially from the NFL being classified as a nonprofit.



No the NFL (the nonprofit) does not exist to make a profit. And nonprofits are not limited to "altruistic goals" or benefits to society. Section 501, the section of tax law that specifies nonprofits has something like 26 different types. A 501(c)(3) is but one, and is the (primary) one for charitable orgs. So, there are about 25 other types.

E.g., You live in a private neighborhood with a Home owners Association ("HOA"). HOAs will collect dues from homeowners there and use that money to build new sidewalks or whatever. There is no benefit to society etc, but it is a nonprofit. HOAs are a collective, in other words they are a way to allow people to collaborate on a project and are used as a conduit to funnel funds for a purpose. They help the neighbors in the community manage their personal business.

Likewise, the NFL (nonprofit org) is a collective for the various teams and helps them manage the business of professional football. It would be cumbersome and problematic if all the teams had to, e.g., each pay 1/32 of the salary for the commissioner and rules officials etc. So, Congress has permitted the owners to have a collective (the NFL nonprofit) to help funnel funds (which are then taxable) and manage the collective group of owners.

So, no, the NFL is not in existence to make money (a profit), and, in fact, it does not as their tax returns demonstrate.



I don't know. Maybe MLB realized they get a financial benefit from NOT being a nonprofit?

Again, because this is actually costing the individual NFL team owners money there is no 'exemption" to speak of. I don't know why the owners agreed to this, unless they felt they needed to make some concession to Congress to induce them to grant them what is basically a monopoly.

Fern

The only reason the league is organized this way is to game the system as much as possible. The exemption they use was carved out specifically for them in the 60's.

Maybe I'm being a little vague in my description. When I was saying that the NFL is nothing but a machine designed to generate money, I am talking about the NFL and all teams. I realize that legally the NFL cannot generate a profit, but the setup is designed to allow the collective as a whole from paying as little taxes as possible.
 

cubby1223

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May 24, 2004
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The only reason the league is organized this way is to game the system as much as possible. The exemption they use was carved out specifically for them in the 60's.

Maybe I'm being a little vague in my description. When I was saying that the NFL is nothing but a machine designed to generate money, I am talking about the NFL and all teams. I realize that legally the NFL cannot generate a profit, but the setup is designed to allow the collective as a whole from paying as little taxes as possible.

Do you have any actual point in any of your posts? You read someone else's rant that one piece of a giant organization is classified as non-profit, and you got your rage on because that is how someone told you you were supposed to think. Does your thought process go any further beyond "I believe they have more than enough money to spread around"?



My personal opinion? The NFL creates a product, they create a service, they generate economic activity both within themselves and throughout many, many, many other businesses who directly benefit from the NFL's existence. I have no problem with the NFL doing a little bit of maneuvering to pay a little less taxes amongst the teams (97% of whom are for-profit entities), especially compared to the multitudes of people on welfare who spend their time doing little more than learning how to take more from the government while contributing nothing to anyone.
 
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actuarial

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Jan 22, 2009
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I'd rather be paid from a company that enjoys generous tax breaks than not. Obviously id likely be paid more and paying high taxes on more money is better than high taxes alone. The execs can make their huge sums of money because the NFL is non profit. Looks and smells like a loophole to me.

Do you have anything to back up your claim that executives would be paid less if they were not tax exempt? Do you have anything to back up your claim that the league would have to actually pay taxes if they were not tax exempt?

What profits would the 'NFL' (the actual league, not the teams) be taxed on? They don't actually make a profit.

I believe you are seeing the 'NFL' as the entire collective, not just the league function. The NFL overall is not tax exempt, as each team pays taxes on their earnings.
 

DCal430

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Feb 12, 2011
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Wages are ALWAYS deductible. Many non-profits pay their executives 6 or 7 figure salaries. The fact is they DO NOT make a profit. It is as simple as that. Their is no so called loop hole.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
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No. If they werent a commercial industry a hot dog and a beer would not cost $20.00 at a ball park.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
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The only reason the league is organized this way is to game the system as much as possible. The exemption they use was carved out specifically for them in the 60's.

I think it's been adequately explained that this setup is costing them money. I.e., they are not gaming the system, it is gaming them.

Maybe I'm being a little vague in my description. When I was saying that the NFL is nothing but a machine designed to generate money, I am talking about the NFL and all teams. I realize that legally the NFL cannot generate a profit, but the setup is designed to allow the collective as a whole from paying as little taxes as possible.

How does this system benefit the teams etc?

How does this system reduce taxes for for the teams etc? Currently, they are sitting on about $175 million of expenses they haven't been able to deduct. If the league itself wasn't nonprofit those $175M would have been tax deductible.

If and when the teams pays in the $175M a tax deduction will happen. I.e., the tax deduction has deferred to the benefit of the federal govt. (Note: I have simplified the numbers etc. to illustrate the principal; it's much more complex.)

Fern
 

silverpig

Lifer
Jul 29, 2001
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This is one of those annoying arguments where the crux isn't a difference of opinion, it's because one side just plain doesn't understand something.