Should the good soldiers demand those in the wikileaks be removed from the military

[dahunan]

You can't murder teenage girls and old men and not expect retribution.

Nations cannot know we let our soldiers murder teenage girls and old men and go unpunished and still in the service carrying guns ready to kill more innocents

Why shouldn't people in the area take revenge on US Soldiers who did this stuff? Be logical.. not emotional.

And how can we let our conscience and our tax dollars keep funding the men who did this?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jul/26/afghanistan-war-logs-us-marines

Brevity is the hallmark of military reporting, but even by those standards the description of one disastrous event is remarkably short: "The patrol returned to base."
It started with a suicide bomb. On 4 March 2007 a convoy of US marines, who arrived in Afghanistan three weeks earlier, were hit by an explosives-rigged minivan outside the city of Jalalabad.
The marines made a frenzied escape, opening fire with automatic weapons as they tore down a six-mile stretch of highway, hitting almost anyone in their way – teenage girls in fields, motorists in their cars, old men as they walked along the road. Nineteen unarmed civilians were killed and 50 wounded.
None of this, however, was captured in the initial military account, written by the marines themselves. It simply says that, simultaneous to the suicide explosion, "the patrol received small arms fire from three directions".

A month later, in April 2007, the Afghan Human Rights Commission published a report into the shooting which said the victims included a 16-year-old newlywed girl carrying a bundle of grass and a 75-year-old man walking back from the shops. The report said the marines may have come under fire from one source straight after the suicide bomb but challenged the assertion they suffered a "complex ambush from several directions".
By then a US army colonel had admitted to the Afghans that the shootings were a "terrible, terrible mistake" and "a stain on our honour". He paid $2,000 to the families of each victim. The special forces commander in Afghanistan, Major General Francis Kearney, ordered the marines to pull the 120-man company out of the country, an unprecedented step.
But there would be no punishment. The marines, angered by the criticism of their unit by an army commander, held their own inquiry into the shootings and issued their findings a year later. It exonerated the marines. The troops "acted appropriately and in accordance with the rules of engagement … in response to a complex attack," said Major General Samuel Helland, the commander of marine forces in the Middle East and Afghanistan.

 

[EagleKeeper]

The Afghan report has a lot of subjective disclaimers.

When under fire, things seem different than when sitting at a desk a few hundred miles away and time has passed to alter recollections

 

[Lemon law]

Good post dahunan, but I wonder if you have the wrong thread title.

Because you ask, " Should the good soldiers demand those in the wikileaks be removed from the military?"

Two possible defects in asking that question?

1. Its somewhat presupposes that the larger common grunt soldiers, is privy to the misbehavior of a few rotten apples.

2. It deflects the question to the wrong group. When its the overall top military commanders in any theater of operation, who are responsible for booting out the irresponsible, and instead ignore the problems by sweeping it under the rug. And when, in the larger full inevitability of time, those abuses finally come to light, why should we not focus our outrage at those at the top levels of command who certainly knew about the war crimes and instead tried to sweep it under the rug.

After all, its the common grunt soldier who pays the forfeit for the enemy's outrage, and the top Generals are as safe as a bug in a rug while the larger USA loses a war we could win. As damn vicious and murderous as the Taliban is, it takes inspired military stupidly for the USA and Nato to come in second place in a beauty contest with the Taliban. If that is OK with the top brass, how can we expect the average Joe soldier to buck that trend.

 

[xj0hnx]

Good post dahunan, but I wonder if you have the wrong thread title.

No, it's not. I don't see anything there to dispute that the unit took fire during their escape, or that the civilians killed were unluckily in the crossfore of that encounter.

None of this, however, was captured in the initial military account, written by the marines themselves. It simply says that, simultaneous to the suicide explosion, "the patrol received small arms fire from three directions".

Did they even read the report? It says right in it ...

"(MP patrol) arrived at the scene to determine number of LN casualties."

The initial report wouldn't list the exact number of casualties, except probably friendly dead/wounded. And you can clearly read that the report WAS updated to include LN (Local National)casualties.

Terrible article.

 

[Lemon law]

The Afghan report has a lot of subjective disclaimers.

When under fire, things seem different than when sitting at a desk a few hundred miles away and time has passed to alter recollections

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Let us all admit, EagleKeeper makes a valid point about all wars, here the generals import a bunch of Civilians used to law and order, suddenly place them in an environment where only a crazy person is not piss your pants terrified, and its why the mantra of every war is to keep a tight asshole. And suddenly us State side civilians and the top brass generals can see with crystal clarity that kind of lash out at anything that moves panic is not justifiable. But when the grunt in the field is being killed by the enemy, but its still a human nature constant throughout time, especially with troops facing combat for the first time.

At the end of the day, IMHO, its still the responsibility of the top brass, war is their chosen profession, as professionals, its the top brass responsibility to minimize the inevitable abuses. As we now better understand, its the fault of the top Nato generals for not understanding how damaging their failures have been in the total war effort.

Just one Abu Ghrab or Azzibad, negates the best efforts of thousand of good US soldiers. And now we suddenly find out our top brass tried to sweep horrible war losing behavior under the rug rather than slow the behavior, and when those same top brass bastards get outed, we expect US peer pressure among grunts to make up for the abuses of the top brass??????????

But then again, should our outrage be only directed at Generals, after all, the military are supposed to win wars, and mission accomplished chased the Taliban and Al-Quida out of Afghanistan in 2002. After that, it becomes a political problem, that US politicians are responsible for finishing, in that final step of winning the peace.

IMHO, we should direct much of our outrage at the incompetence of GWB and Congress, and sad to say, Obama is somewhat better than GWB, but not enough better to change anything.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Charge them with treason, full extent, if found guilty, shoot them.

The release of these papers has no validity, shows no misconduct not already known and dealt with, is of no importance except to be used as a propaganda tool by our enemy who will falsify it and make it fit their agenda.

 

[Lemon law]

Charge them with treason, full extent, if found guilty, shoot them.

The release of these papers has no validity, shows no misconduct not already known and dealt with, is of no importance except to be used as a propaganda tool by our enemy who will falsify it and make it fit their agenda.

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Interesting question JOS, when a similar incident occurred with the Pentagon papers, it was the US courts who said no to military prosecution of whistle blowers.

But in the grander scheme of things of things, does it matter if the military prosecutions or persecutions of whistle blowers happen or not, Nato is still losing to the Taliban already because they are fools, hanging up the whistle blowers by their thumbs or necks will do nothing to change that larger reality.

 

[Zebo]

Most civilian deaths are by Taliban intimidation, suicide bombers, road bombs or up close and personnel . Our guys actually try and prevent civilian causalities. That civilains get in the way is a inescapable problem with warfare. Sometimes you are faced with choice of you or them and survival instinct kicks in and civilian die in xfire. sux to be sure but I won't second guess a man in the field.

If we wanted to do total war like Taliban is doing it would be over in three days max.

 

[Craig234]

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Interesting question JOS, when a similar incident occurred with the Pentagon papers, it was the US courts who said no to military prosecution of whistle blowers.

To be clear, the courts did not say no to (civilian) prosecution of the whistle blowers. Rather, the court found massive misconduct by the government justifying dismissal of the charges.

 

[Lemon law]

By all means Zebo, don't second guess Linyde England and Charles Granger at Abu Gharab, just pretend that those incidents never occurred.

It may work for you, but its something that the people of Iraq and Afghanistan realized long ago.

When anyone with brain one realizes that such incidents make the difference between "US" losing or winning, your internal cognitive dissonance denial comfort
level adds up to only your own stupidity.

As for me , I want to win in Afghanistan and Iraq, but if we want to get there, we have to reduce our own liabilities, and not pretend those liabilities do not exist.

 

[Zebo]

Define winning?

IMO There is no winning until that retrograde religion is done away with or at least reforms. For the Infidel is always at war with the believer. So it is written so it is done.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Most civilian deaths are by Taliban intimidation, suicide bombers, road bombs or up close and personnel . Our guys actually try and prevent civilian causalities. That civilains get in the way is a inescapable problem with warfare. Sometimes you are faced with choice of you or them and survival instinct kicks in and civilian die in xfire. sux to be sure but I won't second guess a man in the field.

If we wanted to do total war like Taliban is doing it would be over in three days max.

If our ROE was the same as the Talibans, the only ones left standing would be NATO forces.

Proper air support and yeah, three days max.

 

[Lemon law]

Define winning?

IMO There is no winning until that retrograde religion is done away with or at least reforms. For the Infidel is always at war with the believer. So it is written so it is done.

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Why should I in the USA try to define winning when Zebo , mentality has already defined losing?

But Zebo has to be the dumb fuck of the last 600 hundred years to blame the Islamic religion for all our current woes.

To some extent its merely happenstance that the last vestige of European colonialism is playing out in mainly Muslim countries, the West shoves and they push back.

But most of Christians and most of Muslims want the same damn thing, world peace and a better life for their children. As sister religions, both are equal.

Is there a dimes worth of difference between a Muslim extremist and GWB, somehow I doubt it. Because one deserves the other.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Define winning?

IMO There is no winning until that retrograde religion is done away with or at least reforms. For the Infidel is always at war with the believer. So it is written so it is done.

Just so you know it, there are plenty of reformists in the ME and SE Asia, with proper support we could have avoided this situation a long time ago. But we thrived on their dicatatorships and willingness of those in charge to sell out to us without one single thought about the people who were tortured by the dictators we made deals with.

I am not IN THE LEAST surprised that they are using religion as an excuse for their actions, take a look at Sudan, there you have Christians hacking children and women to death with machetes in the name of Christ, the religion is ok, it's how it's used that becomes a problem.

Same goes for the Hindus in the LTTE (most terrorist attacks were perpetrated by Hindus before GW's wonderful adventure in Iraq) or the ETA, IRA, RIRA and so on and so forth.

 

[Zebo]

If our ROE was the same as the Talibans, the only ones left standing would be NATO forces.

Proper air support and yeah, three days max.

That's a fucking shocker. No cursing at me or others? No twatage? Agreeing? What did generals have you do? Some cultural sensitivity class or something this morning?

 

[Zebo]

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Why should I in the USA try to define winning when Zebo , mentality has already defined losing?

But Zebo has to be the dumb fuck of the last 600 hundred years to blame the Islamic religion for all our current woes.

To some extent its merely happenstance that the last vestige of European colonialism is playing out in mainly Muslim countries, the West shoves and they push back.

But most of Christians and most of Muslims want the same damn thing, world peace and a better life for their children. As sister religions, both are equal.

Is there a dimes worth of difference between a Muslim extremist and GWB, somehow I doubt it. Because one deserves the other.

Wrong religious and secular minorities and women don't do so well in fundi states. Unlike you I live in Saudi for a year and can tell you it's Muslims way or hwy.

Chistain were just as fucked up but we got a handle on them with reformation/enlightenment.

 

[Lemon law]

Wrong religious and secular minorities and women don't do so well in fundi states. Unlike you I live in Saudi for a year and can tell you it's Muslims way or hwy.

Chistain were just as fucked up but we got a handle on them with reformation/enlightenment.

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Let me see if I can quite get my arms around the Zebo contention, as Zebo pee his pants at GWB's best buddy in Saudi Arabia? But what about the Cristian Surbs in Yugoslavia who cheerfully murdered Muslims, or the fact that Muslims in Iran, Lebanon, Indonesia, and Pakistan long ago rejected the Burka and discrimination of the sexes. Or Israel who has never integrated worship between the sexes, never in 4000 years.

Face the fact Zebo, any idiot can make a cheap shot case that any human religion is the sole rascal, but the reality is and remains, all human religions have compiled a miserable tract record.

Earth to Zebo, how can you blame only Muslims?

 

[Freshgeardude]

oh the children and the old!!!


its a fucking war zone. Civilian casualties happen. Is it sad? Yes, but beyond this thread I couldnt care less.

I'd rather have americans live than some afganistanian stone age people.

a 16 year old girl newly wed. what the fuck, thats like 8 years older than the normal age in that religion

 

[Craig234]

oh the children and the old!!!


its a fucking war zone. Civilian casualties happen. Is it sad? Yes, but beyond this thread I couldnt care less.

I'd rather have americans live than some afganistanian stone age people.

a 16 year old girl newly wed. what the fuck, thats like 8 years older than the normal age in that religion

You can only hope to raise up to stone age.

 

[rchiu]

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Interesting question JOS, when a similar incident occurred with the Pentagon papers, it was the US courts who said no to military prosecution of whistle blowers.

But in the grander scheme of things of things, does it matter if the military prosecutions or persecutions of whistle blowers happen or not, Nato is still losing to the Taliban already because they are fools, hanging up the whistle blowers by their thumbs or necks will do nothing to change that larger reality.

I haven't done a lot of research but Daniel Ellsberg in the Pentagon Paper incident was not a military personal as far as I know and is not under military law jurisdiction. But the guy who leaked the Apache video and is also under suspicion for this leak is an army officer and is under military law.

And IMHO, it does matter if NATO go after the whistle blower. In this world, perception often turn into reality and you just don't leak military operation on the ground unfiltered to the world. In fact, with Wikileak's record, unfiltered maybe a bad choice of word. Their political agenda seems to be picking and choosing only the anti-US and anti-war pieces. Yeah the world knows this day and age nobody wanna read stuff on how many school or road US army built but if Wikileak is suppose to be neutral, it shouldn't be posting only those anti-war attention getter to increase their site traffic.

Armchair generals can call NATO fools, but the fools really site in white house, senate and congress. It's already tough for the people on the ground to fight this war with all the political adversities. It would be even tougher for those attention seekers, money/traffic seeking websites to publish anti-military only document that hurts the moral and the perception of the people that's doing their best on the ground.

 

[xj0hnx]

And IMHO, it does matter if NATO go after the whistle blower. In this world, perception often turn into reality and you just don't leak military operation on the ground unfiltered to the world. In fact, with Wikileak's record, unfiltered maybe a bad choice of word. Their political agenda seems to be picking and choosing only the anti-US and anti-war pieces. Yeah the world knows this day and age nobody wanna read stuff on how many school or road US army built but if Wikileak is suppose to be neutral, it shouldn't be posting only those anti-war attention getter to increase their site traffic.

Yip, for every single bad report there's a hundred good deeds. They sure don't mention all the people that get to eat, and work, or get to go to school, or as you mentioned roads that are rebuilt (been there, it was no fun), or have power and clean water now, but they sure as shit make sure that the pieces that support their agenda get published.

 

[CitizenKain]

oh the children and the old!!!


its a fucking war zone. Civilian casualties happen. Is it sad? Yes, but beyond this thread I couldnt care less.

I'd rather have americans live than some afganistanian stone age people.

a 16 year old girl newly wed. what the fuck, thats like 8 years older than the normal age in that religion

You're a fucking moron. I can't believe someone would post that somewhere other then Stormfront.

 

[sandorski]

The big News up here is about a Covered up Friendly Fire incident where 4 Canadian Soldiers died.

 

[palehorse]

War is hell.

 

[bamacre]

War is hell.

That quote is not an excuse, it's a warning.