Should power generators give us some $$$ back?

[goshdarnindie]

No, consumers paid for the item, end of transaction. Unless of course you decide to return the power. Did anyone else see Walt Williams on FOX last night. He's a brilliant economist and he's been saying what I've been thinking the whole time. The invisible hand of capitalism will take care of everything the beuracrats have screwed up, but not until the beuracrats get out of the way.

OrByte has it right except that California didn't really deregulate, it reregulated, and when fuel prices went up unexpectantly they got themselves caught in the "worst case scenario".

This view is missing several key concepts to it which are assumed to be understood by the masses, if you want more information, please feel free to contact me and maybe we can start a thread... maybe not

 

[Tauren]

Nick Stone - sorry but a quizzical tone does not lend any credence to a debate and I did not find anything thought provoking in your argument. It seemed contrived and without any fore-thought. Perhaps it is best to sit back and listen at times.

 

[Red Dawn]

The problem in California is mainly due to there not being any power plantsbuilt in the last 20 years. Pete Wilson only made the situation worse by forcing Deregualation. It wouldn't of mattered what form of deregulation was inacted because there wasn't enough power being generated by the Power Plants in the State. If Davis is at fault for anything it's not trying to remedy the problem sooner than he did. Then again there was no out cry from the Republican Myopians to do anything about it either.

Davis should be judged on how he has reacted regarding this situation within the last year and I think that he has done a remarkable job. The dire forecast have not be realized mainly due to his efforts. Of course the Myopian Buck Passers will disagree.That's why they have earmarked 25 million dollars for ludicrous commercials to try and convince the Citizens of California that it was the Democrats and not them who are at fault. Of course it's going to fail miserably as we are wise to the Myopian Republican way of passing the buck.

 

[Nick Stone]

Tauren


<< I did not find anything thought provoking in your argument./Q]

Perhaps it would be more thought provoking if you or others tried to answer my 6 questions?



<< It seemed contrived and without any fore-thought >>



Maybe contived, but I think my questions are well thought out.



<< Perhaps it is best to sit back and listen at times. >>



I'm listening -- especially to discussions on the original subject or to those who want to answer my questions.

 

[Tauren]

I just re-read all of your posts and I don't see one question that stands unanswered somewhere in this thread.

 

[josphstalinator]

lemonhead -

Suppose you were living in a town with only 1 grocery store and you had absolutely no other place to buy your food. Suppose that store marked up all of their items by 1000%?


but what if the state created this scenario. what if the state didnt allow any other grocery stores to open up?

 

[josphstalinator]

CA screwed itself when it allowed deregulation

california screwed itself when it didnt allow more generation to be created. and deregulation was only in affect in a few areas.

 

[LemonHead]

Bottom line.....The power generators are price-gouging. Period! It doesn't matter who is to blame as for how CA got into this mess. The plain fact is, the power generators saw a golden opp to completely screw the system. The supply and demand example is crap. They have *TONS* of generating capacity and yet knowingly created &quot;shortages&quot; to drive up the price on the spot market. The PG's control the price! They just do it in a &quot;legal&quot; way, but it is grossly unfair and freaking greedy.

Nick...It sounds like you are saying that it is just and fair that the PG's can charge what they want because that is how the chips fell. Are you saying that it is ok for someone to screw someone else over just because he can??

BTW, California has a law in place that basically regulates prices on power generated in state, but not out of state. So those PG's that operate instate simply ship the juice out of state first and then bring it back in at hugely inflated prices thus skirting the CA law.....nice, eh?

 

[josphstalinator]

Pidge- trust me, here in Sacramento all the red tape that can be cut is being cut in order to get new plants on line. It is THE focal point of ALL State Agencies. That is something that Grey Davis did do right.

the point is that davis should have been fixing this problem before it even started! and there still is a ton of beurocracy going on. an emergency generator in san fransisco that is being run 24/7 is being sued by environmentalists cause it pollutes to much. davis gave the ok to run this generator. no matter how much red tape you do away with there will always be more shiz to deal with.

 

[Nick Stone]

LemonHead
You quote:


<< Nick...It sounds like you are saying that it is just and fair that the PG's can charge what they want because that is how the chips fell. Are you saying that it is ok for someone to screw someone else over just because he can?? >>



I also stated --


<< I'll repeat my main premise. Should those who have less power, be forced to sell their products to those who have more power, at cost? >>

BTW I meant for the word &quot;power&quot; to mean &quot;political power&quot;, not electrical power.

I think that your question is the same as my question. Should the powerful be allowed to screw over the unpowerful.

 

[OrByte]

the point is that davis should have been fixing this problem before it even started! and there still is a ton of beurocracy going on. an emergency generator in san fransisco that is being run 24/7 is being sued by environmentalists cause it pollutes to much. davis gave the ok to run this generator. no matter how much red tape you do away with there will always be more shiz to deal with.


And which problem is that? This whole fiasco started years ago when State legislators and PG&amp;E sat down at a table and decided to de-regulate the energy utilities. The resulting mess stems from a number of mistakes (or calculated manuvers) from that point on, by a number of groups. I do agree with you on the fact that no matter how much red tape we cut through, there will always be road blocks, most notably, those groups that say, &quot;Not in my backyard!&quot; or the green groups. And that is the way it will always be.....

 

[Nick Stone]

Tauren
1st Question; 2nd post.
Now you want the federal government to step in and demand a refund on your behalf?
No one answered with a &quot;yes&quot; or a &quot;no&quot; or otherwise advised whether they would like the federal government to step in.
2nd question; 2nd post.
Is this different than what we are talking about here?
No one answered with a &quot;yes&quot; or a &quot;no&quot; or otherwise drew a comparison concerning when the federal government should step in.
3rd and 4th question; 4th post.
Is that how it is in some states? They only have one place to buy their energy?
No one responded that their state could or could not only buy power from only one source. LemonHead implied that all the sources were the same &quot;without real choice&quot;.
5th question; 13th post.
Suppose I have something that you need.
Suppose you agree to buy my product at an agreed upon price and the transaction is completed.
Later you come back to me and point out that you are a big, powerfull, political force with friends in high (and low) places and demand that the price be reduced to my cost, or else -- .
Is that what you mean?
No one answered whether or not the powerful should be allowed to force the less powerful to sell their products at cost.
6th question, 18th post
Should those who have less power, be forced to sell their products to those who have more power, at cost?
Essentially a repeat of question 5. Should the powerful (such as the state of California) be allowed to force members of private industry to sell their products at cost or minimal profit?