Should Obama ask for additional fiscal stimulus now?

[boomerang]

And I also love that senseamp is fully in support of putting more money into the pockets of the wealthy while nailing the lower and middle classes with more inflation. Democrats couldn't be dumber if they tried.

Oh, I think they could be. Take away any form of restraints on them and just stand back and watch. Guaranteed to take your breath away.

 

[theeedude]

Please demonstrate the math that shows we will economically grow our way out of the debt.

We are pretty fucked either way but one way gets us eventually unfucked and the other doesn't. We have, and will, choose the latter.

Yes, and that way is additional stimulus. Allowing the country to slide back into recession to save a few bucks on the deficit is going to end up costing a lot more in the long run to clean up the resulting mess.

 

[Schadenfroh]

Obama needs to do what's right for America and get another stimulus passed.

He is stimulating the economy. He allocated more funding to defense than at any point during the Reagan or Bush administrations (inflation adjusted).

Should provide many great science / engineering jobs that require US citizenship. Even assembly line workers can benefit as much of the manufacturing of arms is domestic (for national security reasons), so reduced risk of outsourcing. Who knows, with the amount of cash that Obama is pouring into defense R&D, it might even result another major breakthrough like the internet.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2143525

 

[Darwin333]

I didn't say link the two. I said use the political capital and good will to get done what the country needs to get done to avoid a retreat into economic recession, which is additional job creating fiscal stimulus.

The same argument can be used for perpetual economic stimulus to give the economy a temporary artificial boost as long as the President has "political capital". Unfortunately it still doesn't change the temporary part of temporary economic boost.

 

[glenn1]

Then let Obama ask for it, and let them do nothing and be held to account for doing nothing if the economy slides back into recession come next year.

Obama isn't as stupid as you, and would never ask for something that the American people are demanding to do the opposite of. Did you seriously think that the Republicans won big in the 2010 elections because Obama asked for too little stimulus last go around, and now needs to go back for more? If so, you're more delusional than I thought.

 

[Darwin333]

Yes, and that way is additional stimulus. Allowing the country to slide back into recession to save a few bucks on the deficit is going to end up costing a lot more in the long run to clean up the resulting mess.

You aren't very good at math are you?

 

[BansheeX]

You aren't going to economically contract your way out of debt.

But it's a contraction from an artificial high, and the contraction wouldn't be permanent. That's the point your missing. Constant deficits will never cut the debt. It's like fighting withdrawal symptoms with more booze because you think feeling ill can't result in walking straight again. All you're doing is making the inevitable, eventual contraction worse.

Or how about a household example. You take out 10 credit cards with 5k limits. You spend all 50k in 1 month. What a great month, it felt great. Next month, you can't spend for shit because you've maxed out your cards, all you can do is barely service your past extravagances plus interest incurred. What a shitty feeling month. Your solution: perpetually take on more credit lines to pay off old credit debt? That's called a ponzi scheme, and it ends in a liquidation of your belongings and a total waste of loaned money that could have gone to net production, not net destruction. But it'll be a hell of a ride while you can find the lenders for it.

That being said, a real recession from the 30 year spending orgy after gold delinkage has been resisted for so long now that allowing contraction and mass government layoffs has become unbearable and politically impossible. The currency will instead be destroyed. That is exactly why I bought as much gold as I could when it was at $900. You don't look a gift horse in the mouth, you take near-certain bets every time.

 

[Throckmorton]

Wait - the country is up to our eyeballs in debt, and your solution is to borrow *more*?

Sounds a lot better than a 20 year depression...


Are you opposed to taking out student loans to go to school and better your life? "You're poor and have a shitty job and your solution is to borrow *more*?"

 

[theeedude]

But it's a contraction from an artificial high, and the contraction wouldn't be permanent. That's the point your missing. Constant deficits will never cut the debt. It's like fighting withdrawal symptoms with more booze because you think feeling ill can't result in walking straight again.

Or how about a household example. You take out 10 credit cards with 5k limits. You spend all 50k in 1 month. What a great month, it felt great. Next month, you can't spend for shit because you've maxed out your cards, all you can do is barely service your past extravagances plus interest incurred. What a shitty feeling month. Your solution: perpetually take on more credit lines to pay off old credit debt? That's called a ponzi scheme, and it ends in a liquidation of your belongings and a total waste of loaned money that could have gone to producing, not consumers.

The unemployment numbers now are not just high on relative basis to the boom, they are high on absolute basis. We need direct government spending to make sure people who are capable of contributing to society are contributing to society and not sitting on the sidelines due to lack of money. Government needs to act to maximize the economic output of the country, not sit around pinching pennies.
I never said we need to run constants deficits. When economy is booming we can run surpluses. That is a strawman.

 

[Abwx]

USA has no choice than increasing taxes , suppressing the most
innefficient healthcare system in a devellopped country, that cost
GDP ratio wise double compared to europe while not covering 50
MILLIONS people or so...

Also, a drastic reduction in oil comsumption, since the US use
innefficient and oversized engines...

All in all, difficulty is first an ideological one, not counting
the plutocrats propaganda that law of jungle is the best
to increase the people s wealth....

 

[BoberFett]

Core inflation is very low. You may be spending more on energy and food, but housing is getting cheaper to buy enough to offset that. Plus we got huge unemployment, so labor is cheaper too.

How often do you go to the grocery store and how often do you get a mortgage? Housing being marginally cheaper doesn't have any meaningful affect right now compared to the rising cost of consumables. Most people can't afford to sell and buy a home because they'll lose their shirt in the process. Have you seen home sales volume lately? You're a fool.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

wow...just wow

 

[nick1985]

Sounds a lot better than a 20 year depression...


Are you opposed to taking out student loans to go to school and better your life? "You're poor and have a shitty job and your solution is to borrow *more*?"

But...$20 cheeseburgers!

rofl

 

[theeedude]

How often do you go to the grocery store and how often do you get a mortgage? Housing being marginally cheaper doesn't have any meaningful affect right now compared to the rising cost of consumables. Most people can't afford to sell and buy a home because they'll lose their shirt in the process. Have you seen home sales volume lately? You're a fool.

How is that contradicting what I am saying? You seem to agree we are seeing a deflation in housing. Otherwise, these people wouldn't be losing their shirts when they sell.

 

[BoberFett]

How is that contradicting what I am saying? You seem to agree we are seeing a deflation in housing. Otherwise, these people wouldn't be losing their shirts when they sell.

/facepalm

Because a vast number of people already got a mortgage, and prices are lower and the buy side and the sell side. Christ, have you ever put any real thought into anything or do you just regurgitate buzzwords?

 

[theeedude]

/facepalm

Because a vast number of people already got a mortgage, and prices are lower and the buy side and the sell side. Christ, have you ever put any real thought into anything or do you just regurgitate buzzwords?

Prices are lower, you are correct. That is called deflation, so this inflation talk is a pipe dream.

 

[BoberFett]

Prices are lower, you are correct. That is called deflation, so this inflation talk is a pipe dream.

Have you ever purchased a home? Do you understand how mortgages work? What percentage of the US bought a home in the past five to ten years and is likely locked into that mortgage now due to falling prices? Unless someone's ratio of remaining loan to purchase price is better than the housing price drop in their area, they will not end up ahead by selling and buying. Those same people are however paying more for gas, food, and everything else.

In addition, inflation/deflation occurs when the trading price of items go up/down. Very few people are selling or buying homes right now. It doesn't matter what the value of an item is if it's not being traded. I can tell you that the value of my belly button lint was $500K/oz yesterday and is $1M/oz today, that doesn't mean it's inflation.

You're not very goddamn bright, are you?

 

[Darwin333]

Prices are lower, you are correct. That is called deflation, so this inflation talk is a pipe dream.

You are using the price of a single thing to judge inflation or deflation in general? Fo real dawg?

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

/facepalm

Because a vast number of people already got a mortgage, and prices are lower and the buy side and the sell side. Christ, have you ever put any real thought into anything or do you just regurgitate buzzwords?

Don't make the mistake that truth or lies make any difference. The goal is the agenda. Party uber alles.

 

[FuzzyBee]

Core inflation is very low. You may be spending more on energy and food, but housing is getting cheaper to buy enough to offset that. Plus we got huge unemployment, so labor is cheaper too.

It's a good thing that all of the stimulus money that went to banks is helping people get housing loans.

Wait...

 

[FuzzyBee]

Sounds a lot better than a 20 year depression...


Are you opposed to taking out student loans to go to school and better your life? "You're poor and have a shitty job and your solution is to borrow *more*?"

No, but I don't endorse getting student loans in order to like a drunken sailor back at port for the first time in months, either. Apparently, you do.

Your naivety is cute.

 

[theeedude]

What percentage of the US bought a home in the past five to ten years and is likely locked into that mortgage now due to falling prices?

Have you ever purchased a home?

Do you understand how mortgages work?

Unless someone's loan to purchase price ratio is better than the housing price drop in their area, they will not be ahead by selling and buying. Those same people are however paying more for gas, food, and everything else.

You're not very goddamn bright, are you?

I am planning to purchase one soon, and have the means to do so, but if the Republicans are going to sit around and fiddle their thumbs while we fall back into recession, I'll wait a little longer until the full "benefits" of their economic policies kick in.
The solution to the problem faced by people whose houses are under water is to have more fiscal stimulus to create jobs to drive demand and higher prices for housing. It's not to have the government lay off people who are then forced to sell, flooding an already flooded market with more supply.

 

[theeedude]

It's a good thing that all of the stimulus money that went to banks is helping people get housing loans.

Wait...

I agree, we need direct government spending. This trickle down through the banks to the private sector nonsense needs to end.

 

[theeedude]

You are using the price of a single thing to judge inflation or deflation in general? Fo real dawg?

No, but it is part of overall inflation picture. People don't just buy commodities.

 

[BansheeX]

The unemployment numbers now are not just high on relative basis to the boom, they are high on absolute basis. We need direct government spending to make sure people who are capable of contributing to society are contributing to society and not sitting on the sidelines due to lack of money. Government needs to act to maximize the economic output of the country, not sit around pinching pennies.

Expanding a ponzi scheme doesn't get you back on track. Net destruction doesn't get you back on track. You have to produce more than you consume. That means all the welfare has to end, the soldiers we are paying to be world police have to come home and get real jobs.

How would Bernie Madoff even begin to start paying off his $50 billion debts? He has to start saving his money until he can buy the tools needed to create tons of goods that he can sell above cost. If his debt was more serviceable, he would recoup both the cost of his tools and his lenders' losses over time. This is exactly what individuals would do and have done when left to their own devices. But the government and federal reserve is completely stifling their ability to do so. Nobody saves money in this country to be loaned out from within because interest rates are fixed too low and taxes plus inflation are too high. Your CPI is fucking nonsense, its measurement has changed so many times I've lost count. Direct taxes aren't the problem, it's the undertax, the money printing.

I never said we need to run constants deficits. When economy is booming we can run surpluses. That is a strawman.

How can you run a surplus when so much of your debt is short term? The moment you raise interest rates to 20% like in 1980 to stimulate real savings and real loans and real production, the interest on matured treasuries goes to the stratosphere. This is why bankruptcy exists for individuals, it gets to a point that your debt hinders you from being able to pay it back. We have to totally restructure this with the Chinese or suffer a currency collapse. Choose.