Should music be free?

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im2smrt4u

Golden Member
Jul 14, 2001
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Originally posted by: SWirth86

They shouldnt give it away. But I can buy 2 liters of soda for 89cents at a grocery store, which is coming closer to teh true cost of the soda. If I knew how, there probably is a way to buy from Coca-Cola directly for even cheaper. Part of the 89cents(or less) is going to the supermarket or coca-cola, but not as much as the Burger King. If artists released their music themselves, not through a record company, then we could pay 2bucks for an album, and they would make more than they did before. The recording companies would go out of business, which is what most people on this board want to happen. I would rather buy music from the artist than the recording company the same way I would rather buy soda from teh grocery store/coca-cola rather than Burger King.

I sort of agree with you. I would love to cut out the record compaines! I would be so glad if all those greedy bastards went out of business! But I don't think $2 is fair to the artists either.

It has to cost something to physically make the CD's and transport them to where we can buy them. For the lack of a real figure, lets say it costs $1. If a new release was sold for $10, there would be a markup of some sort, but the artist would probably get a majority of the $9 left over. That sounds like a great deal for everyone.
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
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alienbabeltech.com
Speaking of "crap" . . . you are defining "theft" in a way no court has - by your own narrow-minded "principles" that you wish imposed on others. You are no different than the "Christian" extreme right.
You cannot take that song you play on internet radio where ever you please, unless you illegally copy it. When you buy a CD, you buy the agreement to have the right to use another person's artistic property, but not to copy and distribute it
You ARE allowed to copy music off the radio and always have been.

Perhaps this USA Today article will explain the legal definition of theft to you.

Music-copying laws often shield consumers
By Will Rodger, USATODAY.com

Anyone who has ever made a tape of a CD or record for a friend has read this warning: "Unauthorized duplication is a violation of applicable laws." But is that true? And what laws are these anyway?

Consumers are increasingly asking themselves such questions in light of recent legal proceedings against the music-sharing Web site Napster. Legal briefs in the case are scheduled to be filed in federal court later this month.

Legal experts say they know of no company that has ever taken a consumer to court for giving friends copies of his favorite songs. The recording industry sues only those who try to sell and distribute pirated music for profit, the experts say, and copyright law is so vague that it's unclear at exactly what point casual copying becomes illegal.

"No one is entirely sure," says Peter Jaszi, law professor at American University and an adviser on copyright issues to the Library of Congress.

"It's so flexible that one can't answer in generalities," says Cary Sherman, general counsel to the Recording Industry Association of America. "Each case is looked at based on particular facts and circumstances."

"There certainly is some category of home taping that is fair use," or legally permissible, music industry lawyer Steve Metalitz says. At the same time, "it is probably not legal" for a consumer to hand out 100 copies of a copyrighted CD to his friends.

Criminal charges for copyright violations are limited to commercial enterprises and those cases where the value of pirated material exceeds $1,000.

In any case, Metalitz says, lawyers and courts continue to disagree on where permissible recording ends and piracy begins.

. . .


Regardless, legal experts on both sides of the issue say, no court has ever held a consumer liable for swapping music with anyone elseFor one thing, the 1992 Audio Home Recording Act shelters consumers from being sued over music they copy at home for their use. Furthermore ? and this is where the law gets ambiguous ? the act also may protect consumers from being sued over music they copy for their friends, legal experts say..

Jonathan Zittrain, executive director of Harvard University's Berkman Center for the Internet and Society, says copyright law is full of such murky areas.

"Fair use is notoriously impossible to get ahold of until you actually go to the judge to find out what the judge says, and even then you probably aren't very happy," he says. "There is simply no way to know what fair use is and isn't."
. . .

"No sane industry ever wants to go to war with its customers," Boies says. "Hilary Rosen (president and chief executive officer of the Recording Industry Association of America) herself has said it's 'cool' for consumers to make tapes and share them with their friends. 'Cool' in any lexicon does not mean illegal."

For years lawyers on both sides of copyright law have fought their battle over narrowly defined legal ground. Congress and judges alike decided what was and was not legal based on specific media.

The earliest rulings gave book buyers and libraries the right to lend their books to others, overruling publishers' opposition. More than 100 years later, the Supreme Court irked Hollywood when it ruled that consumers may tape TV shows and movies for their own use.

Even though Napster may have gone over the line in it's unlimited free "sharing" practices, d/l'ing music off the net does not make the person by any LEGAL definition a "thief".


 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,391
19,709
146
Originally posted by: apoppin
Speaking of "crap" . . . you are defining "theft" in a way no court has - by your own narrow-minded "principles" that you wish imposed on others. You are no different than the "Christian" extreme right.

You still don't get it, do you? While they may not run after you in court, they WILL monkey with technology in an effort to stop you. And that ends up costing everyone.

Not to mention this silly comparison to the RR. I do not run around telling people they cannot harm themselves or their "soul. I merely voice my opinion when spoiled little thieves violate the rights of others as you do by feeling they are somehow ENTITLED to the fruits of other people's labor.

There's a big difference there, AP. By your logic, It's not much of a stretch for you to make the same claim when someone breaks a person's and house and steals their property. Who are you to judge them???

rolleye.gif


Give me a break. Comparing me to RR busy bodies is just another lame attempt by you to justify your thievery.
 

AmusedOne, tm37, others included, do you morality nazi's ever let your sphincter's see the light of day?
Wth are you to tell someone what is right and wrong? You are blinded by legislation and spoon fed culture.

"Stop thinking you're so much better than everyone else, and that the average citizen NEEDS people like you to look out for them."
Something you said to me. Directly describing how you act in nearly every thread. Including this one.

There are artists that will always get my money. There are some that will never. It's a trade off.



 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
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A1 would you address my post about lack of return and sample ability concering these products?
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
0
alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: AmusedOne
Originally posted by: apoppin
Speaking of "crap" . . . you are defining "theft" in a way no court has - by your own narrow-minded "principles" that you wish imposed on others. You are no different than the "Christian" extreme right.

You still don't get it, do you? While they may not run after you in court, they WILL monkey with technology in an effort to stop you. And that ends up costing everyone.

Not to mention this silly comparison to the RR. I do not run around telling people they cannot harm themselves or their "soul. I merely voice my opinion when spoiled little thieves violate the rights of others as you do by feeling they are somehow ENTITLED to the fruits of other people's labor.

There's a big difference there, AP. By your logic, It's not much of a stretch for you to make the same claim when someone breaks a person's and house and steals their property. Who are you to judge them???

rolleye.gif


Give me a break. Comparing me to RR busy bodies is just another lame attempt by you to justify your thievery.

You don't deserve a break. Talk about someone not "getting it". You - like the Christian Right you claim to despise - uses the same tactics and ridiculous analogies. Only a fool would compare a "crime" of breaking into a house to steal property with "sharing" music. The courts are there to judge the criminals - and music sharers are not included with them.

The RIAA will monkey with copy-protection anyway - they, like you want "control".

Reasonable people might find this "copy-protection" article interesting.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,391
19,709
146
Originally posted by: SammySon
AmusedOne, tm37, others included, do you morality nazi's ever let your sphincter's see the light of day?
Wth are you to tell someone what is right and wrong? You are blinded by legislation and spoon fed culture.

"Stop thinking you're so much better than everyone else, and that the average citizen NEEDS people like you to look out for them."
Something you said to me. Directly describing how you act in nearly every thread. Including this one.

There are artists that will always get my money. There are some that will never. It's a trade off.

In your rant, you implied that people needed to be controled because they could not make decisions that affected only their lives.

That is irrelevant here. In this case, there are people feeling entitled to other people's property and validating their theft with lame excuses. These people are making decisions that directly infringe on other people's rights. The artist or producer of a product has the right to distribute their goods in a way they deem fit. Yet some here feel they are entitled to take that propert against the owner's wishes.

It's theft. Nothing less. If you've ever had an opinion on how you would feel about a burgler breaking into your home a stealing your property, this is no different.

Please, try harder next time, OK?
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
0
alienbabeltech.com
Please, try harder next time, OK?
You try harder. You are just repeating your nonsense over and over.

Again it is stupid to compare sharing music with breaking into a house and stealing. Even the Christian Right doesn't make as ridiculous assertions as these. You are no different.

You call people "thieves" that the law does not.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,391
19,709
146
Originally posted by: apoppin
Originally posted by: AmusedOne
Originally posted by: apoppin
Speaking of "crap" . . . you are defining "theft" in a way no court has - by your own narrow-minded "principles" that you wish imposed on others. You are no different than the "Christian" extreme right.

You still don't get it, do you? While they may not run after you in court, they WILL monkey with technology in an effort to stop you. And that ends up costing everyone.

Not to mention this silly comparison to the RR. I do not run around telling people they cannot harm themselves or their "soul. I merely voice my opinion when spoiled little thieves violate the rights of others as you do by feeling they are somehow ENTITLED to the fruits of other people's labor.

There's a big difference there, AP. By your logic, It's not much of a stretch for you to make the same claim when someone breaks a person's and house and steals their property. Who are you to judge them???

rolleye.gif


Give me a break. Comparing me to RR busy bodies is just another lame attempt by you to justify your thievery.

You don't deserve a break. Talk about someone not "getting it". You - like the Christian Right you claim to despise - uses the same tactics and ridiculous analogies. Only a fool would compare a "crime" of breaking into a house to steal property with "sharing" music. The courts are there to judge the criminals - and music sharers are not lumped with them.

The RIAA will monkey with copy-protection anyway - they, like you want "control".

Reasonable people might find this "copy-protection" article interesting.

Who ever said I agreed with RIAA tactics? I only have blaimed people like you for making them resort to these knee-jerk tactics.

Again, get it right.

And please, do you wish to explain from where you derive this "right" to force sellers and artists to allow you to "test" products?" Can you please tell me what entitles you to the labor of another?

You've never answered these questions, because you cannot.

Look, Red already admitted it was theft, and we moved on. You, for some unknown reason, still feel entitled to other people's property and try to justify your thievery.

You can pull that RR bullsh!t all day. It wont fly. Your actions directly infringe on the rights of others.

BTW, I thought you weren't going to address me anymore. I guess your word is as strong as your ethics.
rolleye.gif
 

SWirth86

Golden Member
Aug 31, 2001
1,939
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Originally posted by: im2smrt4u
Originally posted by: SWirth86

They shouldnt give it away. But I can buy 2 liters of soda for 89cents at a grocery store, which is coming closer to teh true cost of the soda. If I knew how, there probably is a way to buy from Coca-Cola directly for even cheaper. Part of the 89cents(or less) is going to the supermarket or coca-cola, but not as much as the Burger King. If artists released their music themselves, not through a record company, then we could pay 2bucks for an album, and they would make more than they did before. The recording companies would go out of business, which is what most people on this board want to happen. I would rather buy music from the artist than the recording company the same way I would rather buy soda from teh grocery store/coca-cola rather than Burger King.

I sort of agree with you. I would love to cut out the record compaines! I would be so glad if all those greedy bastards went out of business! But I don't think $2 is fair to the artists either.

It has to cost something to physically make the CD's and transport them to where we can buy them. For the lack of a real figure, lets say it costs $1. If a new release was sold for $10, there would be a markup of some sort, but the artist would probably get a majority of the $9 left over. That sounds like a great deal for everyone.

Quote by: EliteGoodGuy
Courtney Love had a very good one about a year and a half ago about how artists get screwed on the production of CD's. Quoted from her herself, artists only make $0.50-$1 per CD they sell.

You might have missed this from my previos post: New Plan: The next time an artist releases a CD, The artist should release it over the internet w/ high quality mp3's. Anyone could download it. It would be based on the honor system where you are not required to pay, but if youre not a total asshole, you will. It could be 2 bucks. Would you pay 2 bucks for a cd?

This way, a physical record is not even produced. Individual people will download it and burn it onto CD's. The artist gets 2X to 4X of their previous profits, and the record companies, or stores, or middle men don't get any profit at all.

btw, why don't some of you people grow up?:| Stop calling each other Moralist Nazi's and saying that some people's opinions are crap:| Some people are trying to have a discussion on what to do about piracy and how it can be prevented.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,391
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Originally posted by: Carbonyl
A1 would you address my post about lack of return and sample ability concering these products?

I already have. The only guararantee implied in the sale of a CD is that it functions correctly. If you don't like that, you do not have to buy the product.
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
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alienbabeltech.com
Who ever said I agreed with RIAA tactics? I only have blaimed people like you for making them resort to these knee-jerk tactics.
Like Me? You haven't read my posts or you would know it is not for people like me. It is for the pirates, the ones that distribute the music for profit and for Napsterlike companies.

Like the RR, you go beyond the RIAA and their tactics. You try to impose your narrow definition of morals on others.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,391
19,709
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Originally posted by: apoppin
Who ever said I agreed with RIAA tactics? I only have blaimed people like you for making them resort to these knee-jerk tactics.
Like Me? You haven't read my posts or you would know it is not for people like me. It is for the pirates, the ones that distribute the music for profit and for Napsterlike companies.

Like the RR, you go beyond the RIAA and their tactics. You try to impose your narrow definition of morals on others.

When have I tried to have restrictive laws passed? I have every right to vioce my opinion on this, and that is all I have done. If you don;t like it, tough sh!t. I'm sorry you can't stand having your lack of ethics called into question.

Again, your comparison is weak.

Try again...
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
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81
Originally posted by: AmusedOne
Originally posted by: Carbonyl
A1 would you address my post about lack of return and sample ability concering these products?

I already have. The only guararantee implied in the sale of a CD is that it functions correctly. If you don't like that, you do not have to buy the product.

And that why we don't it's unlike any product ever. No trial, no return, no warrantee other than it plays.
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
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alienbabeltech.com
Again, your comparison is weak.
Yours is beyond weak . . . that was pretty stupid comparing breaking and entering - a crime - with music sharing (not a crime by any legal definition).

And if you don't like me voicing my opinion, well that is just too bad for you, also. :p
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
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alienbabeltech.com
And that why we don't it's unlike any product ever. No trial, no return, no warrantee other than it plays.

And now it is not even guaranteed to play in some players - in violation of Philip's copyright - due to some copy protection scheme.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,391
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Originally posted by: apoppin
Again, your comparison is weak.
Yours is beyond weak . . . that was pretty stupid comparing breaking and entering - a crime - with music sharing (not a crime by any legal definition).

And if you don't like me voicing my opinion, well that is just too bad for you, also. :p

Both involve the taking of another person's property without paying for it, and without their permission. The comparison is hardly weak. Both are ethically and morally wrong.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,391
19,709
146
Originally posted by: Carbonyl
Originally posted by: AmusedOne
Originally posted by: Carbonyl
A1 would you address my post about lack of return and sample ability concering these products?

I already have. The only guararantee implied in the sale of a CD is that it functions correctly. If you don't like that, you do not have to buy the product.

And that why we don't it's unlike any product ever. No trial, no return, no warrantee other than it plays.

So because you don't like their policy, you feel entitled to the fruits of their labor for free? From where do you derive this right to infringe on the rights of others?
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
0
alienbabeltech.com
Both involve the taking of another person's property without paying for it, and without their permission. The comparison is hardly weak. Both are ethically and morally wrong.

In your opinion - only - they are the same. Not in the eyes of the law or to a reasonable person.

You are just too dull to comprehend the "Fair Use" policy and the intricacies of the 1992 Audio Home Recording Act which shelters consumers from being sued over music they copy at home for their use.

Yes, we as consumers DO have certain "rights" and I hate to see any bigot trample them.
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
0
alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: apoppin
Both involve the taking of another person's property without paying for it, and without their permission. The comparison is hardly weak. Both are ethically and morally wrong.

In your opinion - only - they are the same. Not in the eyes of the law or to a reasonable person.

You are just too dull to comprehend the "Fair Use" policy and the intricacies of the 1992 Audio Home Recording Act which shelters consumers from being sued over music they copy at home for their use.

Yes, we as consumers DO have certain "rights" and I hate to see any bigot trample them.

And don't just get stuck on one word that bothers you (even if it is appropriate here). Read the entire post before you drivel out another non sequitur reply.

 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
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Originally posted by: AmusedOne
Originally posted by: Carbonyl
Originally posted by: AmusedOne
Originally posted by: Carbonyl
A1 would you address my post about lack of return and sample ability concering these products?

I already have. The only guararantee implied in the sale of a CD is that it functions correctly. If you don't like that, you do not have to buy the product.

And that why we don't it's unlike any product ever. No trial, no return, no warrantee other than it plays.

So because you don't like their policy, you feel entitled to the fruits of their labor for free? From where do you derive this right to infringe on the rights of others?

Absolutly not. I sample becasue they have that policy then if I like it I buy it. But I'm not gonna waste hours looking for reviews each album I'm interested in, buy that magazine or find it on-line, read it, trust thier opinion then buy it.

This is why napster actually helps the industry. People can get quick, low quality, hands-on music in seconds and try it out for a couple days then buy it if they want. Ordinarly I would have never heard some of these bands but when napster was out I sampled like mad at work then comming home made a trip to BestBuy. I'm sure my experiance is'nt atypical and I'm no thief, just IMO insituting a check like I would for any other product I buy whether it be a steak or a pair of socks.

people break laws all the time and calling them immoral is total BS. Remember prohibition, jim crow etc. Would I be immoral if I had some scotch?
 

ObiDon

Diamond Member
May 8, 2000
3,435
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I think if pirating should become more rampant, the industry will adapt in some way to survive. Perhaps by lowering prices.
I didn't waste my time reading this entire thread so I don't know if this has already been said, but...

Ha ha! The old "High prices lead to piracy" argument! About a month ago, I got bored and installed a newsgroup reader. Then I went to a few newsgroups. You know what I saw? A *LOT* of ISOs for games that I could go to Fry's/EBX/Babbage's/wherever and pick up for $10! And, no, I didn't download any of them. WTF would possess someone to download possibly infected software that can be had cheaply?!? I sure don't know but someone must be doing it.

And, so I don't sound too righteous, yeah, I used to be into the warez thing. But then I realized that it was a PITA to scavenge around trying to find all the files and add-ons and all that crap. It really wasn't worth it. I spent all my time downloading and most titles I never even got around to installing! The ones I actually played and liked I eventually bought though ;)
If I can buy my music by the song so I don't have to pay for some of this crap they bundle with their one or two good songs on their albums then owning the music will be affordable.
Almost exactly what I said long ago. If I could go directly to the label's website and pay maybe $1/song for a good quality file (even if it were an uncompressed .wav) then I would be all over that. I stopped buying music because a lot of CDs only have 2-4 songs that I really like on them. Now, if I don't hear it on the radio, I don't hear the song at all :Q

Why waste time in downloading partial songs with pops and squeals in it from some schmuck kid who has no regard for quality and just wants to brag about his huge, "1337" mp3 collection?
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,391
19,709
146
Originally posted by: apoppin
Originally posted by: AmusedOne
Bigot???

Now that's a freakin' riot.
rolleye.gif



big·ot Pronunciation Key (bgt)
n.
One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

Well, if the shoe fits . . .

Pot, Kettle. Kettle, Pot.

Talk about dense. Are you so blind that you can't see you are pushing your opinion as hard as I'm pushing mine? Are you so blind that you can't see you're as intolerant of my opinion as I am of yours?

rolleye.gif