Should men also have the "right to choose"

[lotus503]

What if the male is a minor ,14, and the woman in her thirties, a school teacher that seduces him, gets pregnant and has a child, should the woman be able to collect child support from him or his parents after she serves her time or during her incarceration for statutory rape?

Good question I suppose that infinitesimally small percentages of those cases need to be accounted for. Not sure the course of the law needs to though.

 

[WHAMPOM]

Everyone here knows what the CURRENT law is.

The question is whether those laws are equal and just.



So you do not see anything inherently about the male choice ended at condom time? And yeah somehow I don't think a lot of doctors are going to be sterilizing 17 year old boys so they can have consequence free sex :\

And the bolded makes you seem like the 10 year old who is incapable of rationally defending his believes. Probably because the only support for them is worshiping whatever choices women make.

You are an idiot, MEN have 100% control over whether WOMEN get pregnant during SEX. DON'T PUT LIVE SPERM IN THE VAGINA.

 

[nehalem256]

Good question I suppose that infinitesimally small percentages of those cases need to be accounted for. Not sure the course of the law needs to though.

So you are not sure if a man should be forced to be responsible for a child that is conceived from him being raped?

You are an idiot, MEN have 100% control over whether WOMEN get pregnant during SEX. DON'T PUT LIVE SPERM IN THE VAGINA.

You mean just like women do? You sound just like a right-wing wingnut.

 

[sandorski]

I agree, but only in the situation of not being Married. If it is outside of Marriage, there should be no legal obligation to the Man to support the Child.

 

[lotus503]

So you are not sure if a man should be forced to be responsible for a child that is conceived from him being raped?



You mean just like women do? You sound just like a right-wing wingnut.

Are you being purposefully obtuse?

I think the law needs to account for the very rare cases of rape by a woman, but I don't think the laws overall should take it into account.

Example for the thinking impaired.

Law xyz subsection Z.
Support shall be awarded except in cases the man was raped by the woman leading to conception.

Case for rape and conviction information must be supplied to stop deadbeats from claiming rape when no evidence of it exists.

 

[lotus503]

I agree, but only in the situation of not being Married. If it is outside of Marriage, there should be no legal obligation to the Man to support the Child.

Lol

 

[sandorski]

Lol

Not sure why you are loling. Seems reasonable, something the Woman should consider when making the choice of what to do.

 

[Abraxas]

Two votes for one person? You are a democrat, right?

I say we give the third vote to the unborn child - do you think the child would chose to be killed or not killed?

Only in the event of a tie, just like when there is a tie in the electoral college now. Also, the fetus isn't old enough to vote.

 

[MooseNSquirrel]

So in other words no matter what a woman does it is taking responsibility. That is certainly convenient

No thats how nature framed the issue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFBOQzSk14c

 

[Jhhnn]

A more interesting hypothetical case is what happens when the mother does not want the child but the man does. Where as the father is willing to bare full responsibility for raising the child on his own. It's not very common but it does happen. I personally know one dad like this. The fathers rights movement is fighting for this, and financial abortion to an extent. The latter of which is supported by some feminists surprisingly enough.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fathers'_rights_movement#Parental_and_reproductive_rights

There is the small matter of pregnancy & delivery, not to mention that bringing up such isolated instances in this company is a form of concern trolling...

They don't want the child- they just want to deny any responsibility for it when convenient, and to regain control over women's choices.

You want the baby but she doesn't? So what? Stop whining. Get over yourself. Find another woman who does want a baby, one who's dumb enough to think you might be a decent father.

 

[cybrsage]

You are an idiot, MEN have 100% control over whether WOMEN get pregnant during SEX. DON'T PUT LIVE SPERM IN THE VAGINA.

Do you also say women have 100% control over whether women get pregnant during sex by not putting live sperm in the vagina?

 

[cybrsage]

There is no relationship between who pays to raise a child, and abortion.

Uhh...what? Abortion is a way to prevent the birth of the child...which means the woman, at any moment, can determine she does not want to raise a child and abort it.

 

[cybrsage]

Serious question to everyone:

Would you support this set of rules? If no, why?

1. Woman and man both want baby - no abortion, both support baby.
2. Woman does not want baby, man does - abortion, no support.
3. Woman wants baby, man does not - no abortion, no support.
4. Woman and man both do not want baby - abortion, no support.

No one is forced to have an abortion and no one is forced to be a parent against their will.

 

[nehalem256]

Uhh...what? Abortion is a way to prevent the birth of the child...which means the woman, at any moment, can determine she does not want to raise a child and abort it.

There is not even any need to bring abortion into it.

A woman can simply not tell the father about the pregnancy and then put it up for adoption.

Or if that is too hard use safe-haven laws to simply abandon it at the hospital.

Is it wrong for a woman to skip out on responsibility for the child by putting it up for adoption?

 

[dali71]

Parents are responsible for their offspring. That is a principle of our society.

There is hardly a better example if cause and effect. If a child is born you are legally required to support it.

What they don't mention is that this responsibility only applies to men. All 50 states have safe haven laws that allow a mother to anonymously abandon their baby at designated locations with no fear of legal repercussions.

 

[nehalem256]

What they don't mention is that this responsibility only applies to men. All 50 states have safe haven laws that allow a mother to anonymously abandon their baby at designated locations with no fear of legal repercussions.

And with no legal mandate that the father be notified he has a child. Because a father only has a right to his child if the woman chooses to give it to him.

 

[lotus503]

And with no legal mandate that the father be notified he has a child. Because a father only has a right to his child if the woman chooses to give it to him.

Incorrect, a bio father could petition the court for custody.

 

[Jhhnn]

And with no legal mandate that the father be notified he has a child. Because a father only has a right to his child if the woman chooses to give it to him.

Ooooh! Concern trolling!

But the man should have the right to disown that child, according to you, or demand that the mother abort it. A woman should know her place, do whatever the man decides for her, huh?

 

[nehalem256]

Incorrect, a bio father could petition the court for custody.

And how would he do this if he didnt know it happened?

Ooooh! Concern trolling!

But the man should have the right to disown that child, according to you, or demand that the mother abort it. A woman should know her place, do whatever the man decides for her, huh?

You mean the same right that women have? Its called equality.

 

[lotus503]

And how would he do this if he didnt know it happened?



You mean the same right that women have? Its called equality.

That's not the point, if she doesn't tell him he doesn't lose his parental rights, he just doesn't know he has the child.

I love all of the back and forth over situations that make up an insignificant amount of cases. Your really worried about the guy who wants a kid but doesn't know he has one. You don't seem to care for the millions of kids who fathers don't support them.

 

[nehalem256]

That's not the point, if she doesn't tell him he doesn't lose his parental rights, he just doesn't know he has the child.

So you argument is that a man has no inherent rights to his child.

And only gets them if the woman says he can have them.

That sounds exactly like what I said.

I love all of the back and forth over situations that make up an insignificant amount of cases. Your really worried about the guy who wants a kid but doesn't know he has one. You don't seem to care for the millions of kids who fathers don't support them.

I am opposed to having children out of wedlock.

Its not a man's fault if a woman decides to have a bastard child. But assuming she does why can't she support the child she CHOSE to have?

 

[Jhhnn]

That's not the point, if she doesn't tell him he doesn't lose his parental rights, he just doesn't know he has the child.

I love all of the back and forth over situations that make up an insignificant amount of cases. Your really worried about the guy who wants a kid but doesn't know he has one. You don't seem to care for the millions of kids who fathers don't support them.

Be gentle- he's a tender little flower, you know... always considerate of the interests of others, if only in near fairy tale scenarios...

 

[lotus503]

So you argument is that a man has no inherent rights to his child.

And only gets them if the woman says he can have them.

That sounds exactly like what I said.



I am opposed to having children out of wedlock.

Its not a man's fault if a woman decides to have a bastard child. But assuming she does why can't she support the child she CHOSE to have?

Because the child requires resources to live and thrive. I don't give a shit who the parents are they both have a duty to provide for the child.

If you went in the snatch and the DNA is a match prepare to pay 18 years of your scratch.

 

[Jhhnn]

So you argument is that a man has no inherent rights to his child.

And only gets them if the woman says he can have them.

That sounds exactly like what I said.



I am opposed to having children out of wedlock.

Its not a man's fault if a woman decides to have a bastard child. But assuming she does why can't she support the child she CHOSE to have?

A man only has rights to his children when he knows & takes responsibility for their existence. You claim he has no responsibility, because women have the right to choose abortion. You claim he should be able to force her to bear the fetus to birth so that he can take it, even if she doesn't want to do so. And you sense no contradiction in that, because you won't grant women any sort of power or equality.

The fact that a woman can bear a man's child w/o telling him hasn't changed in thousands of years, nor has her ability to abandon that child on the steps of a firehouse, convent, or a wealthy family's domicile, either.

And it's as much a man's fault for bastard children as a woman's, given that they both engaged in sex outside of marriage.

 

[nehalem256]

A man only has rights to his children when he knows & takes responsibility for their existence. You claim he has no responsibility, because women have the right to choose abortion. You claim he should be able to force her to bear the fetus to birth so that he can take it, even if she doesn't want to do so. And you sense no contradiction in that, because you won't grant women any sort of power or equality.

You made the bolded claim up. I have never made that claim.

And you are repeating the fact that men have no rights unless the woman chooses to give it to them.

The fact that a woman can bear a man's child w/o telling him hasn't changed in thousands of years, nor has her ability to abandon that child on the steps of a firehouse, convent, or a wealthy family's domicile, either.

Wow.

So you have no problem with a woman withholding a man's child from him.

And you have no problem with a woman abandoning the child she CHOSE to have. But you do have a problem with a man abandoning a child the WOMAN CHOSE to have. I dont even know where to begin explaining how screwed up that is.

And it's as much a man's fault for bastard children as a woman's, given that they both engaged in sex outside of marriage.

The boat on sex outside of marriage being wrong has sailed. And given the legality of abortion and prevalence of contraception (most of which the woman controls) no reason for sex to result in a child being born.