Should men also have the "right to choose"

[nehalem256]

The man doesn't have to be a parent he just had to provide financially for his offspring. Money does not = parenting

So you are in favor of making people work to support women's choices.

I thought forcing people to labor for others was struck down by the 13th amendment?

 

[lotus503]

Society also agrees gay marriage should not be allowed. At one point, society also agreed blacks should be slaves.

You fail to show circular reasoning, which is your claim. It is something you do when you cannot argue a point and want to bail on it. You would be better served to just ignore it and move on.

When a person basically says "I support A" and then says "A is stupid, I do not support it", they have lied at least once. You know this, but pretend it is circular reasoning so you can bail.

You spend all day every single day posting here, picking apart posts, calling people liars. Take in part if a post harp on it endlessly toss out context, to suit your ends of circular arguments and discussions. Send people on wild goose chases, cry about quoting sources. In short you are an epic waste of time.

Forgive me for pointing out how pointless it is to have dialogue with you.

Meanwhile the laws will remain as they are and nothing you say or do will change that. Because a woman's body and the choices she makes are not comparable to slavery, segregation or gay marriage.

Public at large disagree with you

 

[nobodyknows]

(2) As per Roe v. Wade a fetus is not a child. A child only comes about when a woman CHOOSES to bear it to term. Her choice her responsibility. Personal responsibility is NOT about being responsible for other people's choices.

Then don't knock her up dumbass. Just say no or have her sign that pre-sex agreement you have in your wallet next to your extra strength condoms. Or get fixed, that will solve the problem 100%

 

[waggy]

So you are in favor of making people work to support women's choices.

I thought forcing people to labor for others was struck down by the 13th amendment?

you wouldn't be supporting the women. you are supporting YOUR CHILD.


you don't want to do that? don't have sex.

 

[MooseNSquirrel]

(1) It would seem to me that the responsibility ship sailed with Roe v. Wade

(2) As per Roe v. Wade a fetus is not a child. A child only comes about when a woman CHOOSES to bear it to term. Her choice her responsibility. Personal responsibility is NOT about being responsible for other people's choices.

Nice try but personal responsibility also means taking responsibility for the consequences of your actions.

Your argument only makes sense in the case of artificial insemination with an anonymous donor.

 

[lotus503]

So you are in favor of making people work to support women's choices.

I thought forcing people to labor for others was struck down by the 13th amendment?

No I am for forcing people to work and take care if the kids they father.

The end point is not the mothers choice but the child who requires food, shelter and basic necessities of life.

Yes I am totally fine with forcing fathers to financially support their kids.

Love the idea and wish the penalties for not doing so were more harsh.

 

[MooseNSquirrel]

You spend all day every single day posting here, picking apart posts, calling people liars. Take in part if a post harp on it endlessly toss out context, to suit your ends of circular arguments and discussions. Send people on wild goose chases, cry about quoting sources. In short you are an epic waste of time.

Forgive me for pointing out how pointless it is to have dialogue with you.

Meanwhile the laws will remain as they are and nothing you say or do will change that. Because a woman's body and the choices she makes are not comparable to slavery, segregation or gay marriage.

Public at large disagree with you

He's very consistent in attempting to use false equivalence to make his arguments for him.

 

[nehalem256]

Meanwhile the laws will remain as they are and nothing you say or do will change that. Because a woman's body and the choices she makes are not comparable to slavery, segregation or gay marriage.

Public at large disagree with you

You might one to take a look at the poll results

Nice try but personal responsibility also means taking responsibility for the consequences of your actions.

Your argument only makes sense in the case of artificial insemination with an anonymous donor.

... unless you are a woman.

No I am for forcing people to work and take care if the kids they father.

The end point is not the mothers choice but the child who requires food, shelter and basic necessities of life.

Yes I am totally fine with forcing fathers to financially support their kids.

Love the idea and wish the penalties for not doing so were more harsh.

And why is the mother CHOOSING to have kids she cannot support?

Why don't you trust women?

 

[kalrith]

It's really interesting to see 80% of the arguments against man's right to choose are the same that conservatives use to support making abortion illegal.

I know people have said the difference is that not allowing an abortion is not letting the woman choose what she wants to do with her body. However, how much of that choice is really about her body rather than about whether she wants the child? If she wants the child, then she completely accepts what it will do to her body. If she doesn't want a child, then all of a sudden pregnancy does horrible things to her body!

IMO, women choosing to abort is not about what it does to their body; it's about whether they want to keep the child. If that's the case, then it's no different for men to have that same choice. I think it's especially sad when a woman aborts when the man would've wanted the child, even taken 100% responsibility for him/her.

Personally, I'm anti-abortion, so my take on this thread is that all the posts that say "you don't want a child, then don't have sex" can be applied to women not getting an abortion in the same way that it can be applied to men not wanting anything to do with the child. I think they're both wrong.

 

[nehalem256]

It's really interesting to see 80% of the arguments against man's right to choose are the same that conservatives use to support making abortion illegal.

I think 80% is understating it. At least so long as you leave out all the personal insults.

I know people have said the difference is that not allowing an abortion is not letting the woman choose what she wants to do with her body. However, how much of that choice is really about her body rather than about whether she wants the child? If she wants the child, then she completely accepts what it will do to her body. If she doesn't want a child, then all of a sudden pregnancy does horrible things to her body!

IMO, women choosing to abort is not about what it does to their body; it's about whether they want to keep the child. If that's the case, then it's no different for men to have that same choice. I think it's especially sad when a woman aborts when the man would've wanted the child, even taken 100% responsibility for him/her.

Yep. Saying its her body is just a convenient excuse to avoid responsibility.

I think its also funny that if a woman wants an abortion than an abortion is no different than cutting her nails. But if she doesn't want one than abortion becomes some horrible invasive procedure*

*Apparently some people have never heard of a medical abortion, which is really no different than taking a laxative.

Personally, I'm anti-abortion, so my take on this thread is that all the posts that say "you don't want a child, then don't have sex" can be applied to women not getting an abortion in the same way that it can be applied to men not wanting anything to do with the child. I think they're both wrong.

Finally someone who will apply consistent standards to both sexes.

 

[nobodyknows]

Why don't you trust women?

Why don't you? Just go get fixed. Put some sperm away for a later date and all is good. Then you can let your "little head" do the thinking for you. Or in this case maybe it's your bigger head??

 

[actuarial]

My arguments in favour of abortion rights do not hinge on personhood or on allowing women to get out of their responsibility.

The responsibilities are to the child not the spouse. If it is your child, you are responsible. There are methods of birth control that both a man and a woman can use, so both have the ability to have sex without a child being born. The fact that a woman has choices later in the process does not absolve the man of contraception responsibilities.

One a child is born, both the man and the woman should be able to decide if they want to raise the child. Then you're left with four options:
- If both man and woman want to raise the child: joint custody and no child support payments
- If man wants to raise and woman doesn't: man full custody woman pays child support
- If woman wants to raise and man doesn't: woman full custody and many pays child support
- If neither wants to raise: kid goes up for adoption

 

[nehalem256]

Why don't you?

Because millions of women choose to have children they cannot afford

 

[nobodyknows]

Because millions of women choose to have children they cannot afford

No, they choose not to abort a pregnancy, they didn't choose to get pregnant. Or can you prove they did?

 

[nehalem256]

My arguments in favour of abortion rights do not hinge on personhood or on allowing women to get out of their responsibility.

The responsibilities are to the child not the spouse. If it is your child, you are responsible. There are methods of birth control that both a man and a woman can use, so both have the ability to have sex without a child being born. The fact that a woman has choices later in the process does not absolve the man of contraception responsibilities.

One a child is born, both the man and the woman should be able to decide if they want to raise the child. Then you're left with four options:
- If both man and woman want to raise the child: joint custody and no child support payments
- If man wants to raise and woman doesn't: man full custody woman pays child support
- If woman wants to raise and man doesn't: woman full custody and many pays child support
- If neither wants to raise: kid goes up for adoption

Except the 2nd case is non-nonsensical. Because what would really happen is the child would be aborted.

And men will not be free from using contraception in the world outlined in the OP. Unless somehow you think the idea that men not being forced to pay child support will somehow make women more likely to want to bareback it.

In which case you must really think women are stupid.

 

[nehalem256]

No, they choose not to abort a pregnancy, they didn't choose to get pregnant. Or can you prove they did?

A fetus is not a child.

Their choice to not have an abortion led the fetus to become a child.

EDIT: And I can prove that in many cases they did plan to get pregnant. ~30% of births are unplanned. But 53% of infants receive WIC. If you cannot fed your infant obviously you cannot afford it.

 

[actuarial]

Except the 2nd case is non-nonsensical. Because what would really happen is the child would be aborted.

That is an assumption on your part. There are many people, including women, who don't agree with abortion.

And men will not be free from using contraception in the world outlined in the OP. Unless somehow you think the idea that men not being forced to pay child support will somehow make women more likely to want to bareback it.

In which case you must really think women are stupid.

I think lots of people are stupid (and have said this before), so of course I think there are stupid women. I also think lots of people act in ways which are not in their best interests. This is not exclusive to males or females.

You have posted before that women have the ability to ruin the life of a man at their whim, and yet many men still want to 'bareback it'. You must really think men are stupid...

 

[nehalem256]

That is an assumption on your part. There are many people, including women, who don't agree with abortion.

And they have no right to force that belief on others.

Which is really what the OP is about. Does a woman have the right to force her belief in abortion being wrong on a man.

 

[actuarial]

And they have no right to force that belief on others.

Which is really what the OP is about. Does a woman have the right to force her belief in abortion being wrong on a man.

That has nothing to do with the OP. The OP is about the man removing his responsibility to his child (NOT to the mother). There are numerous things outside his control that determine whether a child is born, and not all of those are in the woman's control.

 

[nehalem256]

That has nothing to do with the OP. The OP is about the man removing his responsibility to his child (NOT to the mother). There are numerous things outside his control that determine whether a child is born, and not all of those are in the woman's control.

And women have multiple ways of removing their responsibilities. Not just abortion. And we have had people in this thread approving of women using those methods.

EDIT: And women still have 100% power to prevent a child from being born.

 

[nobodyknows]

A fetus is not a child.

Their choice to not have an abortion led the fetus to become a child.

EDIT: And I can prove that in many cases they did plan to get pregnant. ~30% of births are unplanned. But 53% of infants receive WIC. If you cannot fed your infant obviously you cannot afford it.

LOL, welcome to my infamous ignore list.

 

[blankslate]

o your argument is that women cannot be trusted with their word.

My argument is that if you really want to have as much total confirmation as possible that you won't father a child during sex then you must ensure that you are using a condom or that you are snipped.

And I assume that since you have no problem with women lying about the use of birth control you would have no problem with a man deciding to take the condom off half way through sex?

If you make poor choices about your sexual partners then you might have to deal with this... However this is a stupid talking point that wouldn't be brought up by someone who was selective about who they knocked boots with.

Why do you keep repeating how things are. Everyone here knows how they are. The argument is that this is unequal and should be changed.

No they should not. Not in these circumstances. You have 3 choices. Always use a condom, get snipped or abstain until a male birth control pill is a reality.

Interesting how the term is "Man" up huh. Because only the men have to deal with being forced to be a parent.

Oh look you made a funny... :hmm:

As someone posted in this thread Thems the breaks. Women are the only ones who might die as a result of the biological processes directly related to reproduction. Do you want to trade places with them?

I'm sure judging by the drivel that you have posted in this thread that any reply you make will be worth about as much as used toilet paper.

 

[nehalem256]

Oh look you made a funny... :hmm:

As someone posted in this thread Thems the breaks. Women are the only ones who might die as a result of the biological processes directly related to reproduction. Do you want to trade places with them?

I'm sure judging by the drivel that you have posted in this thread that any reply you make will be worth about as much as used toilet paper.

(1) You want to force men to work to support women's choices. Perhaps you fail to realize that men die working.

(2) As for "Do you want to trade places with them?". This is an absurd question to ask. Either the answer is yes which refutes your argument. Or it is no, as you seem to be implying. Which of course implies that being a man is a superior to being a woman. Which is certainly an interesting argument to be making.

And it is also silly to complain about women dying in child birth.

Guess what. Despite the great danger of child birth women live longer. In fact feel free to peruse this life expectancy chart

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005140.html

The only time being a man beats being a woman for life expectancy is 1850 at age 10. Clearly pregnancy is sooooo dangerous.

 

[nehalem256]

If you make poor choices about your sexual partners then you might have to deal with this... However this is a stupid talking point that wouldn't be brought up by someone who was selective about who they knocked boots with.

so do you have a problem with

And I assume that since you have no problem with women lying about the use of birth control you would have no problem with a man deciding to take the condom off half way through sex?

If this happened to a friend of yours what you tell well too bad you should have been more careful who you had sex with?

 

[actuarial]

And women have multiple ways of removing their responsibilities. Not just abortion. And we have had people in this thread approving of women using those methods.

I'm not here to defend everyone else's opinions on the matter. If you'd like to bring forth something specific then go for it.

EDIT: And women still have 100% power to prevent a child from being born.

That is not true. I can be 100% certain that I will not father (another) child if I so choose.