Should I trust this speaker repair place?

[jjongebloed]

My Dad has a pair of big free standing speakers from the 80s which were hand made by his neighbour back then. The neighbour was a massive audiophile and part of some audio association. He sold the speakers to my dad since he was making new ones for himself. At the time, he said the speakers were probably worth $1500 each.

Unfortunately I blew one of them at a party a year ago, and the other day we got a quote to repair them. They look in pretty bad shape (as you would expect after 30 years I suppose) and apparently most of the components (tweeters, woofers etc) will need replacing. The repair place quoted us $1100 which we declined as more than we were willing to spend. I'm starting to reconsider though since the speakers sound great, look beautiful, and have sentimental value to my Dad.

The speaker place tells us these speakers new would be worth $6000 or so, however they could just be saying that to encourage a sale.

My questions are, does the quote sound fair? And is it possible places like this can just put in sub-par replacement parts and pass them off as quality?

 

[Rifter]

If its just the drivers that are blown its a easy fix to do yourself.

 

[Zorander]

If possible, I'd look around other repair/retail shops to get a better idea of the costs.

Also, is that shop proposing to replace the drivers with the same exact models? I think not, given their age, which means there is no guarantee you will get the same sound after the repair. It could be better or worse but different.

 

[Howard]

The capacitors in the crossovers are probably needing replacement too, if they are electrolytic.

 

[alkemyst]

pics?

 

[jjongebloed]

The capacitors in the crossovers are probably needing replacement too, if they are electrolytic.

Probably. Does this justify the quote?

I'm away from home this week, will post pics when I go back on the weekend.

If possible, I'd look around other repair/retail shops to get a better idea of the costs.

Also, is that shop proposing to replace the drivers with the same exact models? I think not, given their age, which means there is no guarantee you will get the same sound after the repair. It could be better or worse but different.

Good idea, I'll get another quote. He said right away the tweeters aren't made anymore and would have to be replaced by different ones. I'll ask further about the rest of the parts.

 

[JSt0rm]

Replacing the tweeters will impart a different sound. If you want to go balls deep find nos tweeters of the same kind. If the woofers are still made you could grab all te parts yourself and do some soldering.

 

[EvilYoda]

Yeah, pics would definitely help so we have an idea of what we're dealing with here. As Howard mentioned, the crossover might need work so take a picture of that too if you can somehow get access to it.

 

[kornphlake]

I'd get an itemized quote, if they're just replacing the drivers with drop in replacements they're charging too much, if they're re-designing the crossover to work with modern drivers it may or may not be a good deal depending on the cost of the components. Either way there's a high probability the speakers will not sound the same after the repair.

 

[Modelworks]

I'm having a hard time with their evaluation that finished they will be worth $6k . $6K, even $2K buys a lot of speaker. Do you know what the drivers and parts are currently being used in the design ? I guarantee you can buy what they want to replace cheaper than what they are selling and doing the work isn't complicated at all.

For $1100 they would have to be taking apart the drivers, rewinding the coils, replacing the cone , etc before I would consider it.

 

[kornphlake]

To be fair, speaker technology has come a long way in the last couple decades. PCs have made it possible to simulate driver response more accurately, which has made researching speaker design easier. If the shop has a competent engineer he could probably design a crossover that would use drivers that fit in the existing cabinet there's a good chance the speaker will sound much better than it did. On the other hand a competent engineer is somewhat unlikely, they'll probably slap in some off the shelf crossover or reuse the existing crossover and it will sound worse than it did 20 years ago. For $1100 to sound as good as $6000 you better see some names like scanspeak on the replacement drivers.

 

[Howard]

Probably. Does this justify the quote?

I'm away from home this week, will post pics when I go back on the weekend.

HELL NO

Open up the cabinets yourself and check what drivers they are. Chances are you can still find them on fleabay.

Depending on how smart the builder was, the crossovers might also be easy to access, in which case you should pull them out and replace all the electrolytic caps yourself.

 

[Howard]

Out of curiosity, how exactly did you blow them?

 

[jjongebloed]

Thanks guys this has been helpful so far. I'll post back tomorrow with an itemised quote including what drivers are currently in there, what they intend to replace them with (if necessary), and any extra work they are going to do eg replace/rewiring the crossover.

I'll open them up and take pics of what I can this weekend.

Out of curiosity, how exactly did you blow them?

Used them when DJing for my sisters party last year. 2 decks and a mixer connected to the amp. After a couple of hours at loud volumes one of them stopped making noise but the other one continued fine. On closer inspection it still made noise but hardly any volume and very crackly - you could still roughly tell what was meant to be coming out.

The second one went the same way about 8 months afterwards when my dad was using it (these things hardly ever got used over the past few years), not being used at high volumes though. We also took the amp we use to the shop (the brand is 'Sansui', also over 20 years old). They said the amp was damaged/broken too and was not an easy fix, so $600 to do that which we also declined. So the amp itself could be responsible for the speaker damage, not sure what the implications are then.

Edit: After a bit of looking around I'm sure the amp is the Sansui AU-2200

 

[Zorander]

It sounds like you killed the drivers by driving them with an underpowered amplifier (clipping is the classic sign of this). It's likely too the voice coils melted from the prolonged high volume they were subjected to.

Once you have a better idea of the general repair costs, I suggest you look around for speakers in that price range (new or old, as long as you can audition) and see if you can live happily with the alternative. You may be surprised.

 

[Howard]

Using a known good amp, play the speakers with a sine sweep from 50 Hz to 15 kHz at moderately low power (not too loud). Some of the drivers may still be working.

 

[jjongebloed]

OK here is the quote almost word for word:

Condition:
First Speaker:
Woofer has burnt out voice coil
mid and high frequency seem OK, but mid needs foam surround replaced

Second:
Woofer is distorted
Mid seems ok but again needs re foaming
HF is 'open circuit'

Proposed work and Costs:
-Can rebuild both woofers, applying new foam edges and replacement voice coils at 255 each ('if we have the correct VCs')
-Mid are $65 each (I take it this is just for re-foaming)
-Replacement HF Tweeters are 132 each plus freight (these won't be the exact replacements but they say it is something similar)
-Crossovers: Apparently, there are no crossovers AT ALL in the cabinets. I didn't even think this was possible? So they say installing crossovers is highly recommended (makes sense) as even budget crossovers will be an improvement and will offer some protection to mids and HFs. Installation of crosovers will be 176 for both.
--
Total estimate: 1150 including replacing missing terminal connection on one cabinet (it broke off when moving them years ago).

What do you guys think? I'm glad at least the subs and mids don't need to be replaced by other parts. But unfortunately both of them need new voice coils it seems. Any idea what 'HF is open circuit' would mean? Sounds like an electrical fix to me rather than a complete replacement.

Also, I got the Amp wrong. Its the Sansui AU-4400. 20 Watts per channel from a quick google.

 

[sdifox]

err, 20w amp should not be used for loud parties... No amount of repair is going to fix that problem permanently. You will just keep killing the speakers.

given the extent of work quoted, I would say it is not worth fixing if you are paying someone else to do it.

 

[SNC]

My Dad has a pair of big free standing speakers from the 80s which were hand made by his neighbour back then. The neighbour was a massive audiophile and part of some audio association. He sold the speakers to my dad since he was making new ones for himself. At the time, he said the speakers were probably worth $1500 each.

Unfortunately I blew one of them at a party a year ago, and the other day we got a quote to repair them. They look in pretty bad shape (as you would expect after 30 years I suppose) and apparently most of the components (tweeters, woofers etc) will need replacing. The repair place quoted us $1100 which we declined as more than we were willing to spend. I'm starting to reconsider though since the speakers sound great, look beautiful, and have sentimental value to my Dad.

The speaker place tells us these speakers new would be worth $6000 or so, however they could just be saying that to encourage a sale.

My questions are, does the quote sound fair? And is it possible places like this can just put in sub-par replacement parts and pass them off as quality?

You say the builder was a "massive audiophile" but yet there was no crossover? Something is not right. If there are as many external connections as there are drivers these speakers might require an external crossover. I have a set like that that I am still working on. If you and your dad was able to listen to these and felt they sounded good enough to even begin to entertain over 1k to repair them, do your self a favor and go listen to a set of Martin Logans. A really nice set can be had for 600-900$ use the extra to find an older Carver amp, like a t200 or if funds allow a TFM-35 or higher. I had the Sansui you were driving these with. It is a great amp that never caused a problem even when driving a set of Polk SDA-SRS2's.

I would hold off, and get some other bids or replace with a new set.

Pics are in order.

 

[Modelworks]

It was pretty common in the 60's and 70's to make speakers without crossovers. What you will find is a capacitor in line with the speaker wire going to the driver. It has crossover functions without the board. The speakers in that setup are gone, time to put them where they belong, in the trash. You are basically being quoted a price to make a new speaker which isn't going to sound like the old one. I would keep the enclosures if they are good, and replace all the drivers and add a proper crossover to each one and you can do that yourself and come out for half the cost.

Get a better amp too. 20 watts per channel for a party is asking for trouble. When you start reaching the limits of an amplifier the amplifier will produce power in sharp peaks, peaks that can exceed 5x what the amplifier is rated for and the only thing stopping the speakers from getting the full power supply voltage is internal diodes that clamp down to keep it from happening. Consider a 20 watt amp could have supply voltages in the 50VDC @2-3A range you don't want that going through any speakers.

 

[SNC]

It was pretty common in the 60's and 70's to make speakers without crossovers. What you will find is a capacitor in line with the speaker wire going to the driver. It has crossover functions without the board. The speakers in that setup are gone, time to put them where they belong, in the trash. You are basically being quoted a price to make a new speaker which isn't going to sound like the old one. I would keep the enclosures if they are good, and replace all the drivers and add a proper crossover to each one and you can do that yourself and come out for half the cost.

Get a better amp too. 20 watts per channel for a party is asking for trouble. When you start reaching the limits of an amplifier the amplifier will produce power in sharp peaks, peaks that can exceed 5x what the amplifier is rated for and the only thing stopping the speakers from getting the full power supply voltage is internal diodes that clamp down to keep it from happening. Consider a 20 watt amp could have supply voltages in the 50VDC @2-3A range you don't want that going through any speakers.

What would not be common is a "massive audiophile" to build a set of speakers in the 80's that would not have a crossover. My AR 1s have a crossovers, and they were far from audiophile grade even in the 60's. A novice places caps on HF drivers, not someone who knew what he was doing. Especially if he built them for himself to use. There is missing info or parts somewhere, but I digress.

 

[kornphlake]

For $1000 you can buy some new or used speakers that will put these old speakers to shame. IMHO it's not worth repairing them.

 

[Tiamat]

Try posting on avsforum DIY subforum in the audio section. Include all of the dimensions of the speakers including internal volume, etc., and pictures. They may be able to tell you honestly if the speaker cabinet is worth salvaging. If it is made very well (inert with tons of bracing) and has a great veneer/finish, then it might be worth it to keep. The next thing to keep in mind is that you will probably not get the same sound out of the speaker that you did way back then. With the dimensions of the cabinet, they might be able to offer you suggestions on particular drivers to use and crossover design.

Generally, beyond 1k$, much of the added cost goes into the cabinet. Occasionally, some of the cost will go into drivers/crossovers, but if you are shopping with audio companies that have a huge family of speakers from entry level to impossibly unaffordable, much of the driver/crossover technology is trickle down while the cabinets (and bass response) remain the major difference between the family members.

 

[NutBucket]

I'll take the amp off your hands if you're going to get rid of it....

 

[jjongebloed]

Perhaps the builder wasn't a 'massive audiophile', I'm just going off what my Dad tells me. I was too young at the time to know the guy let alone his audio qualifications.

Again thanks for the replies. The consensus seems to be this repair job isn't worth doing. Either buy a new set of speakers/amp or replace all the drivers and install crossovers myself.

Based on what people are saying there would be much better quality sound out there for the price range we're talking about. I though these sounded great but that probably doesn't mean much without comparison.

Generally, beyond 1k$, much of the added cost goes into the cabinet. Occasionally, some of the cost will go into drivers/crossovers, but if you are shopping with audio companies that have a huge family of speakers from entry level to impossibly unaffordable, much of the driver/crossover technology is trickle down while the cabinets (and bass response) remain the major difference between the family members.

Interesting. The cabinets are quite heavy and made from very nice native Australian Jarrah, so they are probably worth keeping. Replacing all the drivers and installing crossovers myself is probably the way to go, but my knowledge is nowhere near that level at this point. I'll post on that DIY forum and see if its a job that I should even try and approach.

Based on this new information, in saying the speakers would be worth $6000 (in working condition), he must be attaching a lot of value to the cabinets or just exaggerating.

I'll take the amp off your hands if you're going to get rid of it....

They think its a substantial repair job too on the amp. Out of curiosity how much would you pay for one in working condition?