Should I return Haswell?

[uhntissbaby111]

After time away from gaming due to joining the military and moving, i went ahead and decided it was time to get back into it and get a new build. My old build that i left behind when i moved was an i7 940. So i figured since haswell is the newest architecture out, i went with the 4770k and msi z87-gd65, with a gtx 670 ftw. i havnt put anything together since we are moving again on monday ( one of the pleasures of being in the military). So i still have everything boxed up until we get to our new place. My question is this, i have been reading a lot of bad stuff on haswell. I do plan to OC, but only am looking to go to 4.2-4.3, something that will run FSX pretty good. Keeping in mind that this is a whole new build, and im not really upgrading from anything, should i return haswell and go with the 3770k, is it worth the trouble of sending it back to new egg and waiting on new parts? i mean can haswell really be that bad that its a downgrade from ivy bridge? thanks for any help

Adam

 

[ShintaiDK]

Keep the Haswell. Its still better than IB.

Not sure why some people claim its worse. It was the same rerun with SB vs IB.

 

[cytg111]

After time away from gaming and moving, i went ahead and decided it was time to get back into and get a new build. My old build that i left behind when i moved was an i7 940. So i figured since haswell is the newest architecture out, i went with the 4770k and msi z87-gd65, with a gtx 670 ftw. i havnt put anything together since we are moving again on monday ( one of the pleasures of being in the military). So i still have everything boxed up until we get to our new place. My question is this, i have been reading a lot of bad stuff on haswell. I do plan to OC, but only am looking to go to 4.2-4.3, something that will run FSX pretty good. Keeping in mind that this is a whole new build, and im not really upgrading from anything, should i return haswell and go with the 3770k, is it worth the trouble of sending it back to new egg and waiting on new parts? i mean can haswell really be that bad that its a downgrade from ivy bridge? thanks for any help

Adam

A 4.2-4.3GHz Haswell will rival a 4.5-4.7GHz Ivey overclock on legacy code, moving forward on the new ISA's Haswell is more future proof. I say keep what you got, you might get a chance at a nice upgrade with Broadwell down the road as well.

 

[weez82]

i mean can haswell really be that bad that its a downgrade from ivy bridge?

It's not a downgrade. Dont know how you came to that conclusion. Most of the hate you read about Haswell is from people with SB or IB. If you already have one of those then its most likely not worth upgrading (no surprise there but for some reason some people are surprised)

 

[cytg111]

Also

http://www.anandtech.com/bench/Product/46?vs=836

nice upgrade

 

[blackened23]

Why the hell would you contemplate returning it? It is better than IB and has an appreciable IPC lead over it. If you're an overclocker and get 300-400mhz worse than IB the IPC increase will offset that. Additionally, the z87 platform is so much better than z77 I can't fathom why anyone would want to downgrade to z77. Z77 sucks. There I said it - having only 2 native intel SATA6G ports limits you VERY MUCH in terms of usable raids and SSD caches, and then you can get a board with marvell / as media SATA6G ports but those will have their own issues. And can't be shared (in RAID) with intel ports. You'd have to be nuts to choose IVB over Haswell for a *new* system. Now obviously if you have IVB *NOW*, there is no need whatsoever to get Haswell - but a new system, again. You'd have to be nuts to go with IVB/Z77 over Haswell for a brand new build.

Lastly, it should be mentioned that IVB got hot as well. Apparently everyone here completely forgot that and are talking like IVB hits 5ghz with ease. If you think that, you're in for one hell of a surprise - the situation between IVB and Haswell is not completely different. They are both temperature limited.

But, it's your choice. It's your money. Get the 3770k if you want, that's what I have now - and if I were opting for a new system I can tell you which choice (3770k or 4770k) is the wrong one. You're about to make the wrong choice if you opt for a Z77 board / 3770k, period.

 

[TakeNoPrisoners]

It is fine as long as you are not upgrading from a SB or IB.

It is very unimpressive coming from those CPUs.

 

[cytg111]

They are both temperature limited. .

I dont know what excatly is limiting them, but temps doesnt seem to be a big part of it, delidders getting 20 degrees off still only see another ~200mhz headroom.

take this guy http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2324197

He is running close to 100 deg. celcius and still stable at 4.7, the oc-ability of a batch is something else than just how cool it runs.

 

[blackened23]

I dont know what excatly is limiting them, but temps doesnt seem to be a big part of it, delidders getting 20 degrees off still only see another ~200mhz headroom.

take this guy http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2324197

He is running close to 100 deg. celcius and still stable at 4.7, the oc-ability of a batch is something else than just how cool it runs.

First of all, this is off-topic and not really worth discussing. But since you brought it up, de-lidding has it's own sets of problems, I can assure you that it is extremely easy to ruin your CPU by doing so: It's even riskier with the Haswell chip because of the integrated VR, so there is double the potential of causing damage especially if you're using the razor method. Using the Vice method is fairly safe but not everyone wants to spend 60$ on equipment to do that - just for 100 more mhz. Aside from this, IVB/Haswell both can run at 85C completely safe - there is *nothing wrong* with that temperature. People just don't expect it when coming from SB, but the temperature tolerance of IVB/Haswell is higher than that of sandy bridge.

The problem with Haswell, partially, is that everyone is judging load temperatures by prime 95. A little known fact regarding Haswell is that certain AVX instruction loads will cause the voltage to go higher by .1V, so if you have 1.25V set in the BIOS - prime 95 will cause the CPU to run at 1.35V. Obviously this has detrimental effects on the CPU temperature. And none of these temps will ever, ever occur outside of anything but prime 95 or intel burn test.

Anyway, long story short, the situation in terms of overclocking between IVB and Haswell is not completely different. I'm not arguing de-lidding, or any of that nonsense, what you're telling me is completely off topic. The point i'm getting at is that opting for IVB over Haswell for a NEW BUILD is completely stupid. IMHO. Haswell/Z87 is far better overall, and the Z87 platform is far, far better than Z77 was. That's my main point - i'm not here to discuss de-lidding and all of that nonsense. If you want to do that and are okay with the risk, go for it. This thread is about choosing Ivb over haswell - which is a nutty move for a new system.

 

[cytg111]

Meh, wasnt looking for an argument. The OP stated he was overclocking, I just chimed in with my view on overclocking the new chips vs. temperatures(wich you brought up), and IMO nothing to worry about unless you get into throttling temps.

 

[rgallant]

keep haswell just look at some ocing guides for your mobo. when they come out.

-[edit] have a look 670 vs 770 depending on the cost to you ,you could send the 670 back and get a gtx 770 if you can ,
http://www.anandtech.com/bench/Product/830?vs=829

 

[CakeMonster]

What is it with all these extremely similarly phrased posts from users with only a couple of posts?

 

[uhntissbaby111]

thanks for the replies everyone. i personally didnt really come to the conclusion that its a downgrade. just been hearing a lot of hate on haswell, some people posting that its a downgrade, saying itll be lucky to get to 4.2, ect ect. and was just entertaining the option of going with ivy if it truly was better than haswell. but after your replies, it just confirmed my decision of going with haswell and look forward to building the rig!! thanks again

adam

 

[frozentundra123456]

What is it with all these extremely similarly phrased posts from users with only a couple of posts?

Seems ironic that all the AMD fans who cry foul. whats with the AMD hate, are the first to post ridiculous pejoratively worded posts against haswell.

It is not a great improvement, or maybe about the same for overclockers, but it is far from the piece of junk some posters are claiming.

 

[bronxzv]

A little known fact regarding Haswell is that certain AVX instruction loads will cause the voltage to go higher by .1V

I missed the review talking about that, I'll be glad to have the link, can you post it?

 

[JimmiG]

People who were expecting 4.8+ GHz on a now "mature" 22nm process are disappointed. Same with those who are already running SB or IB chips at 4.5+ GHz and were looking to upgrade.

However the IPC improvements over SB/IB mean you don't need to overclock as much, to get the same level of performance. So while a 4.2 GHz Haswell isn't an upgrade over a 4.5 GHz IB or SB, it's certainly not a downgrade either.
http://anandtech.com/bench/Product/287?vs=836

4.2 - 4.4 GHz is pretty effortless on Haswell. It's when you start pushing it to 4.5 GHz and above that things get tough - Not only do you need extremely good cooling, you also need to be lucky and get a "good" CPU. Some will simply refuse to work above ~4.4 GHz regardless of voltage and temps.

 

[ShintaiDK]

I dont know what excatly is limiting them, but temps doesnt seem to be a big part of it, delidders getting 20 degrees off still only see another ~200mhz headroom.

take this guy http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2324197

He is running close to 100 deg. celcius and still stable at 4.7, the oc-ability of a batch is something else than just how cool it runs.

Even a BIOS can give you 200mhz extra. So I would hold my breath ontil 1-2 months down the roads till BIOSes have had their initial tweaks. The FIVR is a new beast too for OCers.

 

[NTMBK]

Keep the Haswell. It's still better than Ivy Bridge, though not by that much- and a big improvement over your old machine.

 

[bgt]

Keep the Haswell. It's still better than Ivy Bridge, though not by that much- and a big improvement over your old machine.

Totally agree, go for the haswell.

 

[Braxos]

Blah blah stay with i7 940 and burn your money on a 780 or sli 770 or sli 780 or titan. My opinion you will have better improvement with it then upgrading the cpu with a 670.

 

[daveybrat]

If the only real game you'll be playing is FSX, then you won't even need to worry about overclocking. SB, IV, or Haswell at stock should be more than enough power.

 

[KentState]

The upgrade to Z87 makes it worth it alone even if the OC is within 100mhz of IB.

 

[JimmiG]

If the only real game you'll be playing is FSX, then you won't even need to worry about overclocking. SB, IV, or Haswell at stock should be more than enough power.

I see you haven't been following FSX. Without any add-ons installed, a Core 2 Duo and above handles the sim just fine. However, with add-ons such as OrbX, PMDG etc., you're looking at 10 FPS on a low-end system and 30 FPS only on a 4.5 GHz SB or faster.

Yes, the FSX engine is hopelessly out of date and extremely CPU bound, but since Microsoft axed the FS development team, it's all add-on developers have to work with.

 

[uhntissbaby111]

Yes, the FSX engine is hopelessly out of date and extremely CPU bound, but since Microsoft axed the FS development team, it's all add-on developers have to work with.

I'm hoping the developers for FSX addons will migrate over to Prepar3d at some point. With the resources lockheed has, and they also hired the microsoft FS team, i think thats our only hope for the future. So far Xplane has not impressed me at all

 

[Redoitall]

thanks for the replies everyone. i personally didnt really come to the conclusion that its a downgrade. just been hearing a lot of hate on haswell, some people posting that its a downgrade, saying itll be lucky to get to 4.2, ect ect. and was just entertaining the option of going with ivy if it truly was better than haswell. but after your replies, it just confirmed my decision of going with haswell and look forward to building the rig!! thanks again

adam

People hate Haswell because they want 50 percent faster than previous generations. If that was the case we will all be tempted to upgrade yearly. A 5Ghz Sandy is the same as a 4.7 Gz Ivy . So theoretically not a solid conclusion ur haswell at 4.2 is like Ivy at 4.5 Gx so at the end of the day is win situation for you. Besides new socket guarantees you the chance to use ur Mb for years to come. Is like if you bought a car with 300 hp and next year you expect the same car with 450 HP. Don't worry about the haters . You have a great chip and they have a good chip. If they want to get a lot of HP they should go get one of those 2k server intel octacore dual machines good for nothing when it comes to gaming.