Should I leave my church?

[IronWing]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
There's a lot of old saying out there, how about this one:

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. 😛

I see a harassment suit in the wings.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: ironwing

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
There's a lot of old saying out there, how about this one:

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. 😛

I see a harassment suit in the wings.

It's next up on the docket, as soon as they finish with the "Judaism vs Islam" case. 😉

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: BoberFett
What's so confusing? If you tell people that you need to support the [black/white] community you're continually reinforcing the idea that you need to pay attention to the color of people's skin and treat them accordingly. For good or for bad, it's still racism.

:thumbsup:

People should be treated by their actions. True equality would be color blind and not promote the supremacy of any color.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: BoberFett
What's so confusing? If you tell people that you need to support the [black/white] community you're continually reinforcing the idea that you need to pay attention to the color of people's skin and treat them accordingly. For good or for bad, it's still racism.

:thumbsup:

People should be treated by their actions.

Bingo. By the actions of Black Churches in the past there's no way one could conclude that they were racist in any way.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: BoberFett
What's so confusing? If you tell people that you need to support the [black/white] community you're continually reinforcing the idea that you need to pay attention to the color of people's skin and treat them accordingly. For good or for bad, it's still racism.

:thumbsup:

People should be treated by their actions.

Bingo. By the actions of Black Churches in the past there's no way one could conclude that they were racist in any way.

I don't doubt for a minute that these churches do good work and have good intentions but as I said previously, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

They are churches, same as any other church.... except they like to be know as "Black Churches". I think at one time there were valid reasons for that, but this day and age I think they should lose the label. It offends my "white" sensibilities. 😉

 

[punchkin]

Let's say you have a particular group of people who are economically disadvantaged (we won't argue about whether they are "oppressed" in general). Let's say they are all black. Let's say that the reason that blacks today are economically disadvantaged has roots going all the way back to slavery. Let's say that social programs today don't sufficiently address this problem.

If these things are true, where's the harm in blacks wanting to improve the lot of blacks? We all (socially conscious people) work for the benefit of groups of which we are a part, or in whose cause we believe.

 

[punchkin]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
They are churches, same as any other church.... except they like to be know as "Black Churches". I think at one time there were valid reasons for that, but this day and age I think they should lose the label. It offends my "white" sensibilities. 😉

You may not understand the point of view of blacks well enough to understand. Or maybe you do.

One thing I don't understand, and maybe apologists for the black church in question can help me as I'm not a Christian. Aren't Christians supposed to be equally generous to others without respect to skin color? For instance, if a church runs an assistance program for the poor and a white person applies, and is told "Sorry, we won't help you because we prefer to help a black person", is that fulfilling Christian ideals? I guess there is always too little charity to go around, but still...

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: punchkin
Let's say you have a particular group of people who are economically disadvantaged (we won't argue about whether they are "oppressed" in general). Let's say they are all black. Let's say that the reason that blacks today are economically disadvantaged has roots going all the way back to slavery. Let's say that social programs today don't sufficiently address this problem.

If these things are true, where's the harm in blacks wanting to improve the lot of blacks? We all (socially conscious people) work for the benefit of groups of which we are a part, or in whose cause we believe.

The churches are composed predominately of black people in predominately black communities and they are their to help their members. I don't have any problem with that and don't see why anyone should??

What I'm asking is why do they need to have a seperate identity from any other church? That seems "segregationist" to me?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S...ationist_(short_story)

 

[punchkin]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: punchkin
Let's say you have a particular group of people who are economically disadvantaged (we won't argue about whether they are "oppressed" in general). Let's say they are all black. Let's say that the reason that blacks today are economically disadvantaged has roots going all the way back to slavery. Let's say that social programs today don't sufficiently address this problem.

If these things are true, where's the harm in blacks wanting to improve the lot of blacks? We all (socially conscious people) work for the benefit of groups of which we are a part, or in whose cause we believe.

The churches are composed predominately of black people in predominately black communities and they are their to help their members. I don't have any problem with that and don't see why anyone should??

What I'm asking is why do they need to have a seperate identity from any other church? That seems "segregationist" to me?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S...ationist_(short_story)

Well, according to their creed they are there to help blacks pretty much exclusively. (Go read it.) Now do you have a problem? Even if you don't have a problem, is this in line with Christian ideals? That was my actual question...

 

[Vic]

Strange I don't see the usual suspects from the Hillary health care documents thread in this thread... why aren't you attacking the right-wing source (Hannity/Media Matters for America) here?

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: punchkin

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: punchkin
Let's say you have a particular group of people who are economically disadvantaged (we won't argue about whether they are "oppressed" in general). Let's say they are all black. Let's say that the reason that blacks today are economically disadvantaged has roots going all the way back to slavery. Let's say that social programs today don't sufficiently address this problem.

If these things are true, where's the harm in blacks wanting to improve the lot of blacks? We all (socially conscious people) work for the benefit of groups of which we are a part, or in whose cause we believe.

The churches are composed predominately of black people in predominately black communities and they are their to help their members. I don't have any problem with that and don't see why anyone should??

What I'm asking is why do they need to have a seperate identity from any other church? That seems "segregationist" to me?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S...ationist_(short_story)

Well, according to their creed they are there to help blacks pretty much exclusively. (Go read it.) Now do you have a problem? Even if you don't have a problem, is this in line with Christian ideals? That was my actual question...

Got a link to that "creed"?

It's their church and they support it through their donations. I guess they should get to decide what programs they want or don't want to support. It's sure not my place to tell them what to do with the money they donated out of their own free will.

 

[punchkin]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: punchkin

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: punchkin
Let's say you have a particular group of people who are economically disadvantaged (we won't argue about whether they are "oppressed" in general). Let's say they are all black. Let's say that the reason that blacks today are economically disadvantaged has roots going all the way back to slavery. Let's say that social programs today don't sufficiently address this problem.

If these things are true, where's the harm in blacks wanting to improve the lot of blacks? We all (socially conscious people) work for the benefit of groups of which we are a part, or in whose cause we believe.

The churches are composed predominately of black people in predominately black communities and they are their to help their members. I don't have any problem with that and don't see why anyone should??

What I'm asking is why do they need to have a seperate identity from any other church? That seems "segregationist" to me?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S...ationist_(short_story)

Well, according to their creed they are there to help blacks pretty much exclusively. (Go read it.) Now do you have a problem? Even if you don't have a problem, is this in line with Christian ideals? That was my actual question...

Got a link to that "creed"?

It's their church and they support it through their donations. I guess they should get to decide what programs they want or don't want to support. It's sure not my place to tell them what to do with the money they donated out of their own free will.

As noted often before in this thread, it is the creed of the church that Obama belongs to. Substitute the word "black" for "white" in the original tongue-in-cheek post or do a web search.

The church surely has tax-exempt status.

But this is beside the point and question: Is it Christian to behave this way? I was just trying to add an extra perspective to the discussion.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: punchkin

As noted often before in this thread, it is the creed of the church that Obama belongs to. Substitute the word "black" for "white" in the original tongue-in-cheek post or do a web search.

The church surely has tax-exempt status.

But this is beside the point and question: Is it Christian to behave this way? I was just trying to add an extra perspective to the discussion.

I think the point you are trying to make is well intentioned but ultimately impractical. Since a church has limited funds it invariably spends those funds on specific areas that it finds the most value in. Christian theology asks you to help the poor, is it unchristian to help certain poor people more then others? I would say no. There's nothing I'm aware of that requires christians to help all people in need equally.

Then again, I'm not a christian so... meh.

 

[spidey07]

I believe that church is as racist as they come. Given that Obama is so into it I am sure he is just as racist. I read that stuff about his church long ago and still feel the same way as when I first read it. The reaction? WTF!!!!!

Also, any media person that attends service now has to identify themselves as such prior to attending. I'm sure that is so the preacher can tone down his bigotry and "black power".

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: spidey07
I believe that church is as racist as they come. .

Of course you do Spidey:roll:

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: spidey07
I believe that church is as racist as they come.

Did you miss the OP's later post?

Originally posted by: XMan

For those of you who didn't get it, this was indeed a parody thread. Sorry, Harvey.

The very principle of adding race to the Christian faith goes against the teachings of Christ. It is not a faith intended to be exclusionary, which is I think what those standards epoused end up doing.

Given that Obama is so into it I am sure he is just as racist.

Unless you can prove that, it sounds like you're trying to prove you're the racist in this thread. :roll:

 

[Corbett]

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: spidey07
I believe that church is as racist as they come.

Did you miss the OP's later post?

Originally posted by: XMan

For those of you who didn't get it, this was indeed a parody thread. Sorry, Harvey.

The very principle of adding race to the Christian faith goes against the teachings of Christ. It is not a faith intended to be exclusionary, which is I think what those standards epoused end up doing.

Given that Obama is so into it I am sure he is just as racist.

Unless you can prove that, it sounds like you're trying to prove you're the racist in this thread. :roll:

So you believe its ok for someone to say this if it were a black church, but not a white church? Racist much?

 

[WHAMPOM]

White racist "I'am White and better than anyone else"!

Black racist "I'am Black and no one is better then me"!

World of difference?

 

[soccerballtux]

OP is a troll; move along please.

 

[soccerballtux]

Originally posted by: reeserock
Religion is for those with weak minds.

I'm doing quite well at Georgia Tech along with my religion thank you very much.

 

[cwjerome]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: cwjerome

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Oh I don't know. The narcolepsy of the middle class, the dream that they will one day be rich, the illusion that there are rules they can follow to gain wealth, this sleep walking dream they have, leads them not only to slaughter by the wealthy and corporations, but slaughter by their own hand. It's class warfare and they have been given drugs that create the illusion they are winning. Every sucker is the victim of his own greed.

Such an evolutionary infantile outlook, barely applicable when Marx wrote his gibberish, and completely oblivious to reality today. Look around you... people from nothing become something everyday and that's why the victimization dream you preach will never take hold. Unless everyone else takes a bad LSD trip like you, finds "Truth," and begins babbling about hate and illusions... you'll be a singular voice of emotional irrationalism, trapped in your own narcolepsy.

My, my, so defensive. I admit though, that if you take a bucket of rats and throw them in a toilet full of shit and flush it, a few will escape. You are a blind fool who sees the ones who escape as winners because your nose is plugged. A block head like you could probably use some LSD to expand your senses or give you some. 🙂 It's you who is the believer, a tool of the capitalist system. Competition, my dear fellow, is hate, although you can't see that either, and to win somebody else has to lose. See the thread about the firmware of the brain being different in Eastern and Western people, and hot the West is all about I me me mine. You are a rat in a cage who has an uncontrollable need to gnaw and gnaw and gnaw with your capitalist teeth.

Look at the mess, the rats have eaten all the cheese. Time to go extinct. Bu bye!

Nah, not defensive... just occasionally willing to take an opportunity to express myself concerning such a silly, juvenile worldview. I'm not sure what's worse... your method or your idea?

Is it the mystical, emotional, and irrational way you've arrived at that conclusion through some inner personal psychological breakthrough where you and only you discovered all the godlike secrets and truths of Man? I'm not much into cults, or anything else that completely negates all the progress of the Age of Reason and Enlightenment, so I'll have to pass on your absurd epistemology. Sorry if I don't hold the little voice in your head as gospel.

Or is the conclusion itself that's worse... such a typically cliche radical Left supposition that it's embarrassingly unoriginal and ignorant. Good God, competition is hate you say? Competition is an abstract concept that is values neutral... it can be good or bad. Competition can be about the desire to achieve or bettering yourself or making better goods at fairer prices, etc. It can bring out the best in people. It can also be abused and abrogated.

True competition presupposes some basic principles held in common by all the competitors, whether it's rules in professional sports or laws in a free market. Some people might cheat in the competition of Major League Baseball but doesn't mean everyone goes around saying competition is bad... no, we go after the cheaters. But it's standard operating procedure for intellectual and moral dwarfs to do exactly that outside of sports although it makes as much sense... zero.

Virtually everything you have and everything that makes your civilized life possible is the result of people having pushed themselves to excel in whatever field or endeavor they pursued and it's this competitive spirit that makes for human progress. Only the most severely deluded can live this life and at the same time condemn the engine that makes it possible. It's a grotesque contradiction of the highest order. Its absurdity is profoundly anti-man. You would love to make us all similar to the sheep-like and doomed Eloi from the Time Machine, breeding ourselves into mush-brained idleness, but there would be no predatory savages working below to sustain the cogs of a comfortable life. It would only be a soulless slow-rot death as our natural and necessary aspects are squeezed out of us until we become joyless, pacified creatures who simply let humanity wither and die.

Me, defensive of that? :roll:

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: cwjerome

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: cwjerome

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Oh I don't know. The narcolepsy of the middle class, the dream that they will one day be rich, the illusion that there are rules they can follow to gain wealth, this sleep walking dream they have, leads them not only to slaughter by the wealthy and corporations, but slaughter by their own hand. It's class warfare and they have been given drugs that create the illusion they are winning. Every sucker is the victim of his own greed.

Such an evolutionary infantile outlook, barely applicable when Marx wrote his gibberish, and completely oblivious to reality today. Look around you... people from nothing become something everyday and that's why the victimization dream you preach will never take hold. Unless everyone else takes a bad LSD trip like you, finds "Truth," and begins babbling about hate and illusions... you'll be a singular voice of emotional irrationalism, trapped in your own narcolepsy.

My, my, so defensive. I admit though, that if you take a bucket of rats and throw them in a toilet full of shit and flush it, a few will escape. You are a blind fool who sees the ones who escape as winners because your nose is plugged. A block head like you could probably use some LSD to expand your senses or give you some. 🙂 It's you who is the believer, a tool of the capitalist system. Competition, my dear fellow, is hate, although you can't see that either, and to win somebody else has to lose. See the thread about the firmware of the brain being different in Eastern and Western people, and hot the West is all about I me me mine. You are a rat in a cage who has an uncontrollable need to gnaw and gnaw and gnaw with your capitalist teeth.

Look at the mess, the rats have eaten all the cheese. Time to go extinct. Bu bye!

Nah, not defensive... just occasionally willing to take an opportunity to express myself concerning such a silly, juvenile worldview. I'm not sure what's worse... your method or your idea?

Is it the mystical, emotional, and irrational way you've arrived at that conclusion through some inner personal psychological breakthrough where you and only you discovered all the godlike secrets and truths of Man? I'm not much into cults, or anything else that completely negates all the progress of the Age of Reason and Enlightenment, so I'll have to pass on your absurd epistemology. Sorry if I don't hold the little voice in your head as gospel.

Or is the conclusion itself that's worse... such a typically cliche radical Left supposition that it's embarrassingly unoriginal and ignorant. Good God, competition is hate you say? Competition is an abstract concept that is values neutral... it can be good or bad. Competition can be about the desire to achieve or bettering yourself or making better goods at fairer prices, etc. It can bring out the best in people. It can also be abused and abrogated.

True competition presupposes some basic principles held in common by all the competitors, whether it's rules in professional sports or laws in a free market. Some people might cheat in the competition of Major League Baseball but doesn't mean everyone goes around saying competition is bad... no, we go after the cheaters. But it's standard operating procedure for intellectual and moral dwarfs to do exactly that outside of sports although it makes as much sense... zero.

Virtually everything you have and everything that makes your civilized life possible is the result of people having pushed themselves to excel in whatever field or endeavor they pursued and it's this competitive spirit that makes for human progress. Only the most severely deluded can live this life and at the same time condemn the engine that makes it possible. It's a grotesque contradiction of the highest order. Its absurdity is profoundly anti-man. You would love to make us all similar to the sheep-like and doomed Eloi from the Time Machine, breeding ourselves into mush-brained idleness, but there would be no predatory savages working below to sustain the cogs of a comfortable life. It would only be a soulless slow-rot death as our natural and necessary aspects are squeezed out of us until we become joyless, pacified creatures who simply let humanity wither and die.

Me, defensive of that? :roll:

Your use of the word abrogated made no sense. By the way, speaking of sense, I have the distinct impression you are competing with me.....and I can feel the hate. 🙂 All in all, I rather like your post. It bears no relationship to reality, but it was well done.

I suggested you focus on the winners and not those who lose the competitive game and that people in the East win in a different way. And if you read P&N fairly and honestly I think you'll agree that on the left and the right is the sense we're coming apart at the seams. 🙂 There's just not that many happy campers around here and you are among them, no?

Oh, and take a long hard look at:

"e, defensive of that? :roll:" You defensive.......hehe, why not a chance, right? Oh man. Wonderful, this life is.

 

[cwjerome]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: cwjerome

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: cwjerome

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Oh I don't know. The narcolepsy of the middle class, the dream that they will one day be rich, the illusion that there are rules they can follow to gain wealth, this sleep walking dream they have, leads them not only to slaughter by the wealthy and corporations, but slaughter by their own hand. It's class warfare and they have been given drugs that create the illusion they are winning. Every sucker is the victim of his own greed.

Such an evolutionary infantile outlook, barely applicable when Marx wrote his gibberish, and completely oblivious to reality today. Look around you... people from nothing become something everyday and that's why the victimization dream you preach will never take hold. Unless everyone else takes a bad LSD trip like you, finds "Truth," and begins babbling about hate and illusions... you'll be a singular voice of emotional irrationalism, trapped in your own narcolepsy.

My, my, so defensive. I admit though, that if you take a bucket of rats and throw them in a toilet full of shit and flush it, a few will escape. You are a blind fool who sees the ones who escape as winners because your nose is plugged. A block head like you could probably use some LSD to expand your senses or give you some. 🙂 It's you who is the believer, a tool of the capitalist system. Competition, my dear fellow, is hate, although you can't see that either, and to win somebody else has to lose. See the thread about the firmware of the brain being different in Eastern and Western people, and hot the West is all about I me me mine. You are a rat in a cage who has an uncontrollable need to gnaw and gnaw and gnaw with your capitalist teeth.

Look at the mess, the rats have eaten all the cheese. Time to go extinct. Bu bye!

Nah, not defensive... just occasionally willing to take an opportunity to express myself concerning such a silly, juvenile worldview. I'm not sure what's worse... your method or your idea?

Is it the mystical, emotional, and irrational way you've arrived at that conclusion through some inner personal psychological breakthrough where you and only you discovered all the godlike secrets and truths of Man? I'm not much into cults, or anything else that completely negates all the progress of the Age of Reason and Enlightenment, so I'll have to pass on your absurd epistemology. Sorry if I don't hold the little voice in your head as gospel.

Or is the conclusion itself that's worse... such a typically cliche radical Left supposition that it's embarrassingly unoriginal and ignorant. Good God, competition is hate you say? Competition is an abstract concept that is values neutral... it can be good or bad. Competition can be about the desire to achieve or bettering yourself or making better goods at fairer prices, etc. It can bring out the best in people. It can also be abused and abrogated.

True competition presupposes some basic principles held in common by all the competitors, whether it's rules in professional sports or laws in a free market. Some people might cheat in the competition of Major League Baseball but doesn't mean everyone goes around saying competition is bad... no, we go after the cheaters. But it's standard operating procedure for intellectual and moral dwarfs to do exactly that outside of sports although it makes as much sense... zero.

Virtually everything you have and everything that makes your civilized life possible is the result of people having pushed themselves to excel in whatever field or endeavor they pursued and it's this competitive spirit that makes for human progress. Only the most severely deluded can live this life and at the same time condemn the engine that makes it possible. It's a grotesque contradiction of the highest order. Its absurdity is profoundly anti-man. You would love to make us all similar to the sheep-like and doomed Eloi from the Time Machine, breeding ourselves into mush-brained idleness, but there would be no predatory savages working below to sustain the cogs of a comfortable life. It would only be a soulless slow-rot death as our natural and necessary aspects are squeezed out of us until we become joyless, pacified creatures who simply let humanity wither and die.

Me, defensive of that? :roll:

Your use of the word abrogated made no sense. By the way, speaking of sense, I have the distinct impression you are competing with me.....and I can feel the hate. 🙂 All in all, I rather like your post. It bears no relationship to reality, but it was well done.

I suggested you focus on the winners and not those who lose the competitive game and that people in the East win in a different way. And if you read P&N fairly and honestly I think you'll agree that on the left and the right is the sense we're coming apart at the seams. 🙂 There's just not that many happy campers around here and you are among them, no?

Oh, and take a long hard look at:

"e, defensive of that? :roll:" You defensive.......hehe, why not a chance, right? Oh man. Wonderful, this life is.

You're slipping Freud. Having a disagreement on an internet message board does not mean I hate you (and if you can feel this alleged "hate" I'd wager you've got bigger problems then you realize), just as competition in life is not always some hateful black-white, winner-loser ordeal.

The fact is it's the same tired speal and I think even you know it's getting old and repetitive judging from your posts lately. No matter how you keep repackaging it, your sermons are quickly becoming a parody of yourself.

 

[Moonbeam]

Now now, cwjerome, Don't tell Dr Freud here, you know what you feel. Just lay back and free associate some more dreams and I will tell you. Feel free to transfer those repressed feelings on me.

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
I don't doubt for a minute that these churches do good work and have good intentions but as I said previously, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

They are churches, same as any other church.... except they like to be know as "Black Churches". I think at one time there were valid reasons for that, but this day and age I think they should lose the label. It offends my "white" sensibilities. 😉

You said that a couple of times, but then again, I've been told before that it's the thought that counts.

Arguing by cliches and idioms is a little silly.

Anyway, context matters, and the statement in the OP certainly comes off as racist as written, and less so when the colours are switched.