Should I buy an E46 M3?

[repoman0]

Just going to toss this out there
E46 production run ended in 2006.
A lot of the knowledge base around that generation was based on user experience of new through 2nd owner cars. Some may have seen high miles but the cars were fairly new.

The cars on the road are now getting pretty old, and there is the risk that more and unexpected issues are going to pop up and surprise new owners of what are now old cars.

So you are ready to deal with the VANOS and subframes and lot of other issues that are common.
Then you have to deal with worn suspension, shot bushings. Leaking master cylinders\lines. Perhaps a weepy gasket or two. Interior its falling off. Cracked fasteners. Corrosion. All the universal things that hit all cars once they've been on the road for a over a decade. You have had good luck with your current 2003, but others have not been so lucky.

I'm only saying this because I feel I HAVE to say it prior to saying what I really want to say, which is


Should you purchase an E46 M3?
You only live once...
Do it now before a spouse puts your purchasing decisions in check.

Ha, I like the last bit :awe: The one thing on your list that makes me a bit nervous is corrosion .. if the car starts to rust apart there's not much that can be done. Just need to hope I can find one that's been away from road salt and keep it clean / away from road salt as much as possible. The rest of it, no problem .. I expect to replace suspension components, gaskets, probably will replace brake lines and paint calipers black anyway since the stock ones rust to hell and look like crap. I have indeed dealt with many of those issues on my 03 and fixed many of them. Basically I wouldn't be considering it if I didn't find working on cars with a beer and friends and music an enjoyable way to spend the occasional Saturday

I was looking at BMW E46 M3's as well. E46s are pretty much the only BMWs that I like for their looks. I don't like the looks of the rest.

Agreed except I love the E30 as well but it's getting a bit too old

Anyway, there are so many issues with E46 M3's that you need to have a shit ton of money to go into the process. You're not going to be getting a good deal. The car will have a lot of issues and some of them will be really expensive. It's just a matter of whether you can live with that or not. (Do you have boatloads of money to throw around? It doesn't sound like it. You're taking this car out on a loan. I never planned on getting a loan for mine. I was going to pay everything with cash.)

A grand or two per year to keep it in top shape is no big deal and expected. I make decent money but not a ton, and the reason I don't pay in cash is interest rates are super low and I already put 50%ish of my paycheck in investments, retirement fund and student loans. After all that I have around $2300 to do what I want with per month

They are quite expensive and are hard to find with <100k miles on the clock. Even when you do find them with over 100k miles, they still fetch $15k+ if they're in any kind of decent condition. On top of that, convertibles are about the only thing I see on the market. So, you pay a premium for a non-convertible too. Try to get a good BMW E46 M3, non-convertible, most options, manual, and in laguna seca blue... that's probably 20k+ regardless of miles.

Yes they are hard to find but I'm patient and have found a few good coupes for around +/- $20k with low miles .. see above link. I also don't like LSB, too flashy, and don't care about options except heated seats would be nice. High resale value over 100k miles is actually a feature :thumbsup:

EDIT: Also, what people said about this being your only car... real bad idea. I never planned on this being my only car UNLESS I was living in NYC and had my own garage to work on it in brooklyn or something of that sort. (And the reason I would let it be my only car in NYC is because I bike and can take the subway. I would only drive the car for pleasure, trips to other cities, and for going out at night. I would never rely on it for work because I wouldn't use it to get to work.)

I've already said I don't really need a car, I live in Boston and can bike / T to work or anywhere, and I have no reason to suspect that a decent 50-60k mile M3 would be less reliable than my slightly older 135k mile 330i if I take care of it well, which I would

In regards to the e46 M3: They are my favorite M3 thus far (though I haven't driven the newest generation). My roommate has a e46 ZHP 330i that drives really nice. Personally, the 330i would be my choice. While the e46 m3 is great, it's overpriced for a car that is a decade old. If you could get a good condition one for like 15k, I would say go for it. 22-25k for a manual coupe is silly. If I'm spending that kind of money on a german "sports car" it's going to be something like this: http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-...t=[POR[CAYMAN[]][]]&listingId=381698657&Log=0

I actually didn't know those were so cheap! However while I loved riding in the 911 my friend rented a couple weeks ago, I'd never own one .. much harder to work on, can't haul anything (bikes on roof is an important feature to me), stands out way too much .. a nice darker colored de-badged M3 is nice for its relative subtlety, especially in the area I live where every other car is some fancy looking BMW.

Agreed that they're a bit overpriced, still sort of trying to decide if I care and just want to pay the relative premium. The one I linked above looks super nice, and if I could get him to take a couple grand off his asking price ......

 

[repoman0]

I thought you drove a Civic that was always broken, and then you were looking at a Prius.

Doesn't sound to me like you should be criticizing someone for looking at an M3..but hey, what do I know? Car enthusiasts don't generally buy fast cars because they're practical. We buy them because we love them.

:thumbsup:

 

[Insomniator]

I've been looking at these cars for a while and really, they are just too expensive. 23k for a 10 year old coupe with 50+ thousand miles and people in the thread you posted are acting like they are throwing cash at the guy.

I've seen examples with over 100k miles where they are still asking 20 grand for it, even 2002 models. I've never driven one, and I understand how an M3 is special.... but 25k can get you a 2010+ 335i manual with more/similar power and less miles.

 

[TridenT]

Interest rates are super low so it doesn't make sense to pay for a car in cash unless you want to tell a bunch of people on the internet that you paid for your car in cash (or you suck at investing and keep all your cash under your mattress). New car loans barely outpace inflation. For example, the gov recently released the 2014 inflation rate as 1.7%. My credit union told me they would loan me the full purchase price of a new car for 66 months at 1.75% (this was for a 2015 corvette). Why would I want to buy this vehicle in cash? In the current market, taking out a loan is the smart way to purchase for anyone who is responsible and can manage their finances. The OP has already said that his CU does just over 2% for used cars. Literally all you need to do to beat that after inflation is taken into account is put your money in a high yield savings/checking account (which probably will be "almost" 1%).

In regards to the e46 M3: They are my favorite M3 thus far (though I haven't driven the newest generation). My roommate has a e46 ZHP 330i that drives really nice. Personally, the 330i would be my choice. While the e46 m3 is great, it's overpriced for a car that is a decade old. If you could get a good condition one for like 15k, I would say go for it. 22-25k for a manual coupe is silly. If I'm spending that kind of money on a german "sports car" it's going to be something like this: http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-...t=[POR[CAYMAN[]][]]&listingId=381698657&Log=0

He's 25. I don't know if he has enough credit history to get that absurdly low interest rate on a loan when he goes to the bank (If his bank will even offer that low of an interest rate. His last post says %2+, but does he qualify?). That said, if he got something like 1.75% for 60+ months then yeah... that loan could make sense. Otherwise, I'd rather just pay cash and not deal with whatever insurance conditions the bank requires. (Something to factor in if you don't plan on doing full coverage... Insurance is still going to be expensive for a mid-20s male)

I thought you drove a Civic that was always broken, and then you were looking at a Prius.

Doesn't sound to me like you should be criticizing someone for looking at an M3..but hey, what do I know? Car enthusiasts don't generally buy fast cars because they're practical. We buy them because we love them.

Yeah, still driving my broken civic. I'm looking around. Been bouncing around different ideas. I was going to get a Toyota Prius because I thought I was going to be doing more miles and typical stuff. I might not. So, I decided to look at a R53-R56 Mini Cooper S (Preferably JCW) and then a E46 M3. When I did my research I found the M3's just to be too costly for this point in my life when I need to be saving for other shit. Undecided against the Mini. So far, not good. I went to Portland, OR and they were everywhere. It just didn't rub the right way.

 

[jlee]

He's 25. I don't know if he has enough credit history to get that absurdly low interest rate on a loan when he goes to the bank (If his bank will even offer that low of an interest rate. His last post says %2+, but does he qualify?). That said, if he got something like 1.75% for 60+ months then yeah... that loan could make sense. Otherwise, I'd rather just pay cash and not deal with whatever insurance conditions the bank requires. (Something to factor in if you don't plan on doing full coverage... Insurance is still going to be expensive for a mid-20s male)

You would pay cash for a $20k car and then not put collision coverage on it?

You are not a wise person.

 

[TridenT]

You would pay cash for a $20k car and then not put collision coverage on it?

You are not a wise person.

It depends on the rate. For a mid-20s male and a sports car, full coverage is going to be really expensive. I mean, as in... You drive that car for 4 years, you could buy another M3...

At least we're not talking about the other kind of BMWs, like a BMW S1000RR. Last I checked, full coverage on that is $1k/month for a early 20's male.

 

[jlee]

It depends on the rate. For a mid-20s male and a sports car, full coverage is going to be really expensive. I mean, as in... You drive that car for 4 years, you could buy another M3...

Well, as long as nobody steals it or you don't crash into someone, I suppose you could get by with just liability and not comprehensive and collision.

Good thing nobody steals cars, amirite?

 

[TridenT]

Well, as long as nobody steals it or you don't crash into someone, I suppose you could get by with just liability.

Good thing nobody steals cars, amirite?

As far as things go, I came out ahead. I paid for that car multiple times with the savings I had from not getting full coverage.

 

[jlee]

As far as things go, I came out ahead. I paid for that car multiple times with the savings I had from not getting full coverage.

Granted I am 30, not 25, but:

2002 BMW M3, six month quote:
Bodily Injury & Property Damage Liability:
$50,000 each person/$100,000 each accident/$50,000 each accident $150.00
Uninsured Motorist:
$50,000 each person/$100,000 each accident $12.00
Underinsured Motorist:
$50,000 each person/$100,000 each accident $7.00
Medical Payments:
$5,000 each person $17.00
Comprehensive:
$1,000 deductible $55.00
Collision:
$1,000 deductible $94.00
Rental Reimbursement:
No Coverage $0.00
Roadside Assistance:
No Coverage $0.00
Loan/Lease Payoff:
No Coverage $0.00
Total rate for this vehicle: $335.00

Assuming maintaining liability and uninsured/underinsured coverage, and a $15,000 purchase price, I'd pay for the cost of the car after approximately 45 years of insurance premiums.

I don't recall *that* much of a difference in my insurance costs over the last 5 years, but maybe it changes more than I recall.

 

[Wuzup101]

He's 25. I don't know if he has enough credit history to get that absurdly low interest rate on a loan when he goes to the bank (If his bank will even offer that low of an interest rate. His last post says %2+, but does he qualify?). That said, if he got something like 1.75% for 60+ months then yeah... that loan could make sense. Otherwise, I'd rather just pay cash and not deal with whatever insurance conditions the bank requires. (Something to factor in if you don't plan on doing full coverage... Insurance is still going to be expensive for a mid-20s male)

First of all, you are correct in saying that I don't know if he would qualify. I assume that he would given that he quoted the rate; however, that's not really the point here.

I'm not sure if you are serious about the last part. You really think it would be intelligent to buy a 20k car in cash so that you didn't have to fully insure it? If you can afford to buy and M3 and maintain an M3 you can afford to insure it. I'm sure that is something the OP has factored into his decision. FWIW my Evo X is close to the same insurance as an e46 m3 (actually a bit more last time I looked which was like a year ago). I had it at 25 and it wasn't insane. Was it the same price as a pick-up truck? no. Cost of ownership.

 

[TridenT]

2002 BMW m3, 24, no violations/accidents, on loan. Phoenix zip code. (Not respective of Boston rates, obviously)

$606.74/6months for
Coverage Limits Cost
Bodily Injury Liability(BI) $50,000/$100,000 $152.94
Property Damage Liability(PD) $50,000 $108.05
Medical Payments(MED) $5,000 $42.87
Uninsured Motorist BI $50,000/$100,000 $6.88
Underinsured Motorist $50,000/$100,000 $12.12
Upgraded Accident Forgiveness(UAF) Not Included N/A
Comprehensive(COMP)
2002 BMW M3 $1,000 deductible $74.97
Collision(COLL)
2002 BMW M3 $1,000 deductible $208.91
Emergency Road Service(ERS)
2002 BMW M3 Not Included N/A
Rental Reimbursement(RR)
2002 BMW M3 Not Included N/A

Not bad. Much cheaper than when I looked previously. Even my civic isn't $125/month for minimum legal coverage through a special plan anymore. (Used to be the cheapest I could get was $180/month through other providers. Full coverage was still $250+/month)

 

[repoman0]

I already am preapproved for 2.04%, 72 months (maybe lower for 60 months), including rate discounts for borrowing less than 90% of the vehicle price and automatic payments through my CU checking account. Quoted insurance is higher than both of your quotes, around $1500 / year but that is with a $500 comprehensive deductible .. I didn't bother looking at lowering it at all since that's already only twice what I pay now, and I don't have collision now because it's not worth it on the 330i.

 

[TridenT]

I already am preapproved for 2.04%, 72 months (maybe lower for 60 months), including rate discounts for borrowing less than 90% of the vehicle price and automatic payments through my CU checking account. Quoted insurance is higher than both of your quotes, around $1500 / year but that is with a $500 comprehensive deductible .. I didn't bother looking at lowering it at all since that's already only twice what I pay now, and I don't have collision now because it's not worth it on the 330i.

Seems good enough. If you plan to spend $20k-$25k on this car then $1.5k/yr is not that bad. It should go down as you get older, if you keep this car long enough for that to matter.

Wish I could get loans like that. :thumbsup: (I can't even get a secured credit card, lol)

 

[jlee]

If you rarely drive the car, you may want to consider a Progressive quote and trying Snapshot - I have a permanent 15% discount on the LX450 and 18% on the Tacoma.

 

[KentState]

I already am preapproved for 2.04%, 72 months (maybe lower for 60 months), including rate discounts for borrowing less than 90% of the vehicle price and automatic payments through my CU checking account. Quoted insurance is higher than both of your quotes, around $1500 / year but that is with a $500 comprehensive deductible .. I didn't bother looking at lowering it at all since that's already only twice what I pay now, and I don't have collision now because it's not worth it on the 330i.

Why such a long loan on an old car? It will be nearly 16 years old when you pay it off if you do a 72 month loan.

 

[repoman0]

If you rarely drive the car, you may want to consider a Progressive quote and trying Snapshot - I have a permanent 15% discount on the LX450 and 18% on the Tacoma.

Cool I'll take a look, last I checked though Progressive was significantly more than Geico for me. Definitely will do some shopping around though.

Why such a long loan on an old car? It will be nearly 16 years old when you pay it off if you do a 72 month loan.

No reason, just that the loan is practically free. I could make a payment twice as large and pay it off in 36 months, or take the longer loan and take the difference in payment and invest it and get an easy 6% percent, and get the total interest paid for the car loan back and more

 

[Koing]

It depends on the rate. For a mid-20s male and a sports car, full coverage is going to be really expensive. I mean, as in... You drive that car for 4 years, you could buy another M3...

At least we're not talking about the other kind of BMWs, like a BMW S1000RR. Last I checked, full coverage on that is $1k/month for a early 20's male.

When I was 24 or so they wanted £3.3k to insure and M3. I decided NO WAY am I dropping £3.3k on a car that would cost me about £18k. NO WAY. I got the S2000 and insurance was £1.2k and more liveable.

Then I turned 26 and insurance dropped to £1.3k for the M3 that cost £12.5k. That I can live with. Now I'm 30 it's £660 LOL. My deductible was £750 or so but it's now £500.

OP if you can stash £1k a year for maintenance you are good to go. Some years you won't need it but it may need £2k or £3k this year with tyres and Inspections I or II that needs doing.
Inspections I £420-450
Inspection II £450-480
Rear springs snap pretty much every 2yrs or so. It's worth upgrading to Eibach all around as they last longer and are suppose to ride better.
Full set of Tyres £880. More if only need one or two.
I get about 230-240 miles if I don't go on the motorway for a full 60l tank. So for me and not so great UK petrol it's about 30p per mile which is not ideal.

I recently had £3.3k worth of work done on my car but that did include
Inspection I
4 tyres (I think this is my 3rd set of tyres?)
geo
all discs and pads
Rear springs (second set by the way. OEM are not good on British roads with our potholes. Every 2yrs they WILL GO)
bushings
vanos issue but THANKFULLY nothing major on the vanos.
+ a bunch of other small things

The alternator died around 65k or so and I got it with 56k on the clock. I bought one off ebay put it in using an online guide. Saved me a reasonable amount and it was fun working on the car. Battery died in that time and I got a heavy duty borsch one for £110.

You only live once, and if it's within your means which it seems to be then go for it. I don't always blast it about but when I do it puts a smile on my face. For me it was always a car I wanted when I saw it on Top Gear back in 2001 or 2002. But insurance was silly until I got older even when I had the finances to get one.

Mines gun metal grey with red leather. Pretty much the same colour as my S2000.

Koing

 

[repoman0]

Thanks for the post koing! Funny I was just looking at one in that darker silvery gray color with red leather .. such a nice combination, that red interior is awesome.

I've skipped inspection I and II on my current car, simply because I've ended up addressing all the items on those lists spread out over the time I've owned it. I'm anticipating being able to do the same with this one, although I understand it'll need a bit more with the valve adjustments and whatnot. I am slightly afraid of spring compressors however so if those broken springs end up being an issue, will probably pay a shop to replace them And yep I've heard about the alternators due to that 8k redline. I've removed mine before to get to the CCV and oil filter housing gasket but they tend not to fail on the M54. Actually it was kind of a pita to both remove and reinstall it..

Anyway I was playing around with loan numbers today. Basically I can get up to $19k at 2.04% if I put the rest down, or essentially up to $25k at 2.29%. A $23k loan at 2.29% over 5 years has me paying a total of $1350ish in interest. $19k at 2.04% ... $990 or so, BUT, investing over 5 years the $4k difference that would otherwise go for a down payment, and assuming a relatively conservative 5%, would pay $1100. Basically the moral of the story is, auto loans are essentially free if you have a credit union, and it's not worth the extra 0.25% discount for making a down payment. Even when I sell my current car, no way that's going towards the new loan.

Also my Progressive quote was twice as much as my Geico one for the same coverage -- not sure why they hate me so much!

 

[Insomniator]

I drove around for 6 months with progressive's stupid snapshot thing beeping at me every 10 minutes for hard braking. If you stop for a yellow, it beeps, if you are in traffic (which I constantly am for my 3 mile commute), it beeps.

No discounts even though i probably drove 1000 miles total the whole time. In a manual M3, it will literally never stop beeping.

 

[halik]

I came from a S2000 and the SMG is okay. I guess I'm use to it after nearly 5yrs? In the slower gears or any gear just take your foot off the gas a little and then change up. If you leave it in auto mode it is a bit sh!t and you need it in the right setting to be fast or as slow as you want.

I have no experience with any of the newer DCT stuff.

Koing

I've owned a 6 speed M3 and this was the first time in a DSG. I put some 600 miles on it that weekend, would not recommend buying it. It's bad slow and it's bad fast.

My 01 M3 ran me around 600 bucks full coverage for the year (IL, I was 27-28 at that time I think). The only big maintenance ticket is valve adjustment ... (and I suppose the rear subframe fix)

 

[repoman0]

I got the preliminary pre-purchase inspection report back for the 52k mile carbon black linked above, but haven't talked to them in detail about it (calling tomorrow).

Sounds like it has some issues -- driver's door was repainted which the owner didn't know about, kevlar bumper reinforcement was not installed when the PO replaced the bumper, and most importantly the subframe needs repair. I don't know the extent of the damage yet, and this point was a surprise to the owner too. The engine was strong, passed the leakdown / compression and vanos test. Waiting for the full report and then I'll decide if I still want to go look at the car.

If the issues end up being repairable for a reasonable price, and the subframe damage is a ~$1-2k welding + reinforcement job instead of a $6k floor replacement, they might be an opportunity for me to knock a significant amount off the asking price.

 

[halik]

I would bite the bullet and get it done anyway. My 50K mile M3 with all stock suspension and wheels ended up getting subframe cracks. Same thing for my brothers 30K mile 325.

 

[repoman0]

I would bite the bullet and get it done anyway. My 50K mile M3 with all stock suspension and wheels ended up getting subframe cracks. Same thing for my brothers 30K mile 325.

Yeah I definitely plan on reinforcing it, cracked or not.

Anyway here's the inspection report .. bit of an overwhelming list, mostly thanks to the accident history, and it kind of looks like the guy hardly did any maintenance. Theoretically I'm fine with "catching up" on basic maintenance as long as most big stuff checks out, but I'd consider paint work and accident repairs "big stuff". I am not sure how much this guy would have to come down for me to consider it. I found a guy asking $25k for a comp package with 54k miles that looks much better taken care of, slightly modded to my taste already, etc. so may hold off on this one




The Bad-

Rear subframe is cracked-$1200 to $2200

DSC pressure switch needs diagnoses

E-Brake needs adjustment

M-Mobility tank is missing

Steering Has vibration/shake at 60mph and above- may be bent rims, need to balance first

A/C belt is dry and cracking

Main Drive belt is starting to show signs of cracking

Microfilter is dirty and clogged

Rear Pinon Seal and both out-put seals are leaking at the rear differential

Pressure Relief Valve is leaking oil

Brake Flush is do

Oil Service

Inspection Two

Front Brakes at 5mm (min Spec is 3mm)

Rear Brakes at 6mm (min spec is 3mm)

Front Carbon Kevlar bumper support/reinforcement is cracked- was in a front end accident

Driverside Vin Plate and Tire badge missing- May have paint work performed in that area

Rear Floor in the trunk shows signs of accident/damage repairs





The Good

Passed Vanos Test

Tires are good 7mm to 8mm tread left

Perfect compression
Cyl1- 11 bar
Cyl2- 11 bar
Cyl3- 12 bar
Cyl4- 11.5 bar
Cyl5- 12 bar
Cyl6- 11 bar
Spec. 11-12 Bar- All the cylinders where in perfect spec

 

[satyajitmenon]

E46 M3s are a dime a dozen. Unless you're looking for a very rare color/spec, I would suggest passing on this one.

 

[Insomniator]

Yeesh, thats the exact kind of inspection that is preventing me from even bothering with these cars seriously. Just old with lots of problems, which most of the time havent been fixed. I took an 05 Mini JCW to a mini dealer and they came back with like 5 grand worth of work. They wanted 1200 for new tires lol. Car had like 50k on it... such a joke.