Should drunk driving (even when it ends safely) have harsher penalties?

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May 16, 2000
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Originally posted by: Mill
POW - Let's lay out a few facts real quick. In this country you do NOT have the permission or right to be the final adjudicator or executioner. I see that you are myopic about this enough to start talking about Jury Nullification happening in a murder case. WRONG. So incredibly rare it isn't worth mentioning. This isn't some life or death situation you would be faced with. If you go and murder someone in cold-blood when your life is NOT endangered( don't try some semantical argument about the drunk having already endangered it) in that current time then you are a murderer. Your myopia doesn't extend to just your ignorance of the laws, our justice system, and your supreme arrogance, but it also extends to your child. How would your child be better off with you in jail? How is martyring yourself a prudent or responsible thing to do? Perhaps you are being hyperbolic, and I sincerely hope so, but so far you are sticking to your story.

You'd kill someone in cold-blood, screw your daughter over, and be the arbitrator of someone's life for what reason? So youcan feel like justice has been done? Have you ever drove while tired or preoccupied? You probably put people's lives at risk then. Fatigue related accidents are incredibly hard to estimate or even give a casually factual base guess. There's no odor and no way to prove it in most cases. That doesn't mean it isn't just as deadly. You seem to have this idea that your morality and ideas are superior to our culture and our system. Why are you living here if you think you are superior. I'm not going to get into a debate about the true meaning of "justice" but gunning someone down for driving intoxicated doesn't strike me as justice. Our system was setup to avoid such emotional, logic lacking moments of stupidity and ignorance. Obviously you feel you are better suited to dole out justice, but fortunately our Founding Fathers and our current laws disagree. Laws are there to balance vigilantism, justice, and rationality. While you might see gunning someone down as justice, a vast majority of society would disagree. This isn't a killing in which someone was breaking in your house and trying to stab you. Yes, they might have been breaking the law, but that doesn't give you the right to do the same.

Surf on over to Nizkor.org and figure out which fallacy that is. Your whole argument is based purely on fallacies and the idea that you are supreme to your fellow man. You are not supreme, and you are a totally myopic loser if you'd go to jail just to try to be a bad-ass. I'd like to see an explanation for why you'd so greatly hurt you daughter just to arbitrate justice. I have an idea that you didn't pass any of those psych tests. If anything you are a total bitch for advocating murder. If you are being hyperbolic then just say so... My own personal hyperbolic posts are frequently misinterpreted.

Obviously it wouldn't benefit a child to lose a parent in such a way...conversely, in what way does it benefit ANYONE if my child were killed in such a crash (or even severely injured) to spend the public money on excessive trials only to have the idiot released on technicality, or serve a few years at public expense and then return to public - now with greatly reduced chance of being able to integrate into society thus pushing him further towards drug/alcohol abuse? I firmly believe if you're willing to risk the lives of innocent people, it makes you a bad person and someone likely to continue to do so. In those cases, a few rounds from a sidearm cost only a few pennies compared to the hundreds of thousands to be spent on trials, appeals, housing, etc.

As for being martyred, well, I think we disagree. I believe in doing what I believe is right, NO MATTER WHAT. If I die, I die. It doesn't matter. I don't believe in EVER doing anything I don't believe in. I'll lose jobs, or life, over what most people consider insignificant details because I believe that what is right is always right and absolute and worth killing or dying for, period.

If while driving I feel tired, I pull over and sleep. I did it frequently while working at a place for a year that required a two hour commute. I'd get tired, I'd pull over and sleep. It'd waste my day, it was uncomfortable, but it was the RIGHT thing to do.

I do believe I'm superior...to anyone who intentionally risks harm to innocents. Accidents happen, I don't get bent over those. In fact, I'm a superiorly forgiving person in this regard. But drinking and driving is NOT an accident, it's premeditated. Plain and simple. I believe that any person who is NOT actively risking harm to another is BETTER than any person who is. Always. I believe performing an act which you know places others at risk, without just cause (ie to save your own life, save another life, etc) removes your own rights. I always have. When you intentionally visit harm, or risk that harm, you're making an agreement with the universe to accept whatever consequences follow from your actions. That's what I believe.

If I hadn't passed those tests a few things would have happened: I would not have gotten my security clearances or at least not had access to the areas I did in the military. I would not have received the promotions and job duties that I had in various forms of security. On the last one, I actually most likely would have lost my gun rights as well as visitation with my daughter...but she's sleeping in the other room and my CPL is safely in my wallet. I don't recall you being a psychologist, nor do I recall you administering me an MMPI or other psychological screening. The only thing I see is you being so against another person that you're willing to label them as 'insane' with no actual training, knowledge, or proof.

Hyperbolic? Perhaps slightly.

Scenerio: I'm driving alone at night down some dark back town streets and get run into by somebody. I get out to inspect the damage and somehow get the idea they're drunk. Do I whip out and kill them? Probably not. First of all they could be experiencing some other condition besides drunkeness (stroke, diabetic, etc). Secondly it's an obvious place for an accident, even if they weren't drunk. Third, it's just me and him. I've faced death so many times it really doesn't even get my heart pumping anymore. Instead I call the police, I hold him at the scene, and let them sort it out. If it turns out he was drunk, I sue him for enough money to trash out my 97 cavalier and buy a nice new hybrid. :cool:

Scenerio: I'm driving down the main highway in my town with my daughter in the back seat on an average day and suddenly a truck veers into my lane and crushes me head-on. For whatever reason I live, and climb from the car. Gazing into the back seat I see my daughters lifeless form with her head at an odd angle. I stumble to check on the other driver and find the cab of the truck littered with coors bottles. The driver, who appears uninjured, is someone I recognize as a year earlier having been fired from a local BK for drinking on the job and being 3 times over the legal limit when arriving at work. I happen to know his license is even suspended for previous DUI (true story). He's obviously drunk, and I can smell beer on his breath as he mutters 'wha happen'. At that point I pull out my glock and empty it into him. Period.

So would I instantly kill everyone? No. But I would honestly charge EVERY DUI as at least attempted negligent homicide, if not attempted premeditated murder. I REALLY BELIEVE that that's what DUI is, carefully planned murder.

Is that a little bit more understandable for you?
 
May 16, 2000
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Originally posted by: Mill
POW - You seem to think it is you and only you that gets to determine the righteousness of a situation. Perhaps you should understand the contract you have with society, and being an American citizen. Or perhaps you are just a lonely, pathetic, windbag that masquerades as a freakshow, gun-toting, asshole. I'm not sure which one, but suffice to say you are devoid or even a modicum of logic or understanding.

No, but I believe every person must hold to their own views of right and wrong, and not feel coerced into accepting some societal illusionary rules. Yes, that creates the potential for conflict, but I see no way around it. People MUST hold to what they believe...no matter what.
 

Chaotic42

Lifer
Jun 15, 2001
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Originally posted by: flot
Here's a little tip for you: Go to any popular bar on a friday or saturday night. Watch how many people have 2 or more drinks and then drive away. All of those people are likely "under the influence" under the current definitions.

You would propse to ruin the lives of every person who went to a bar, had two drinks, and drove home? (last I checked, the punishments for DUI are pretty severe as it is)
If I were to speak strictly based on my emotions, no logic, just pure emotions, I'd say the cop should put a bullet in their heads the second they fail the test.

I'm biased though.

Here's the deal: If you've had *anything* to drink, you should not operate a vehicle. You're risking the lives of everyone on the road. Most people are pretty bad drivers anyway, but add an intoxicant of any sort to the mix, and you're just gambling. The catch is that sometimes you lose but other people have to pay.

DUI fines should be higher and I spit on anyone who has driven drunk.
 

Squisher

Lifer
Aug 17, 2000
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Originally posted by: Chaotic42
DUI fines should be higher and I spit on anyone who has driven drunk.
Sounds like a bad case of cotton mouth. You have noticed that there are parking lots outside of all those bars you see?

Seriously, people just have to be more responsible. How much is a cab going to set you back?

First time DUI is going to cost you between $7K - $10K (depending where you get pulled over) by the time it's all done. I think that hits people about right.
 

Sepen

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
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Originally posted by: flot
NO.

NO.

NO.

Jesus. Why does everyone jump on this particular bandwagon??

Here's a little tip for you: Go to any popular bar on a friday or saturday night. Watch how many people have 2 or more drinks and then drive away. All of those people are likely "under the influence" under the current definitions.

You would propse to ruin the lives of every person who went to a bar, had two drinks, and drove home? (last I checked, the punishments for DUI are pretty severe as it is)

In the last 3 weeks within 3 miles of my home 3 drunks have ended 2 kids lives and seriously injured 4 others. Two were out Sunday driving at over 100mph. All the drunks lived. When disaster strikes at your doorstep...and it will.....I only hope that you are as openminded and as forgiving as you are now.

I also have lost a 1st Cousin to a DUI accident.
 

BDawg

Lifer
Oct 31, 2000
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Originally posted by: Sepen
Originally posted by: flot
NO.

NO.

NO.

Jesus. Why does everyone jump on this particular bandwagon??

Here's a little tip for you: Go to any popular bar on a friday or saturday night. Watch how many people have 2 or more drinks and then drive away. All of those people are likely "under the influence" under the current definitions.

You would propse to ruin the lives of every person who went to a bar, had two drinks, and drove home? (last I checked, the punishments for DUI are pretty severe as it is)

In the last 3 weeks within 3 miles of my home 3 drunks have ended 2 kids lives and seriously injured 4 others. Two were out Sunday driving at over 100mph. All the drunks lived. When disaster strikes at your doorstep...and it will.....I only hope that you are as openminded and as forgiving as you are now.

I also have lost a 1st Cousin to a DUI accident.

Quit complaining. If there were tougher laws, millions would be inconvenienced. ;)
 

flot

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2000
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Originally posted by: Chaotic42

DUI fines should be higher and I spit on anyone who has driven drunk.

I would bet you $50 that in a room of 100 randomly selected people aged 21-35, at least 40 of them have driven with a BAC of 0.06 or higher at some point in their life. I suspect it would be more like 60-80.

If you really don't believe this is true, then I can only assume you live a very sheltered life. In all honesty, of my friend/peer group (which is a pretty normal sample of college kids and young professionals (I'm 28)) I'd guess that 80-90% of them have driven home drunk (using the current definition) at some point in the last 5 years.

In fact, the only people I know that I'd be confident in saying have NEVER driven home drunk are those who don't drink at all.
 

Veramocor

Senior member
Mar 2, 2004
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In Suffolk and Nassau County, nY (Long Island section) I believe they cam confiscate your car. Thats a damn big penalty.
 

flot

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2000
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Originally posted by: Sepen

In the last 3 weeks within 3 miles of my home 3 drunks have ended 2 kids lives and seriously injured 4 others. Two were out Sunday driving at over 100mph. All the drunks lived. When disaster strikes at your doorstep...and it will.....I only hope that you are as openminded and as forgiving as you are now.

Okay. But do you somehow think that the people responsible for the accidents above are going to get a slap on the wrist and and a $50 fine? No. Chances are, their lives will be mostly ruined. It really doesn't get much worse than that. How is this constant lowering of the BAC limits going to help? It won't - it will only cause grief to a lot of much-less-dangerous drinkers, and it will in no way deter the guy who goes on a bender and downs a 12 pack.

Second of all - people die in car accidents every day. Does society harbor some terrible grudge against the people who fall asleep at the wheel? No.

I've never been out drinking, gotten into my car, and almost run someone over.

I HAVE, however, been blinded by the sun on my dirty windshield and almost mowed down a pedestrian on a beautiful sunny afternoon. I've also almost fallen dead asleep on the interstate going 80 mph at 4 in the morning. Should we have especially strict laws against dirty windsheilds and driving while sleepy?
 

flot

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2000
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Good Article I found online that was attributed to The Washington Times:

EDITORIAL ? March 6, 2000

Power MADD

Mothers Against Drunk Driving may soon have to change its name to Mothers Against Any Drinking Whatever - if, that is, it wants to avoid false advertising. The organization's ongoing push to compel states to adopt ever-lower standards for being legally "drunk" is becoming a prohibitionist jihad driven by hysteria, not medical reality.
In Maryland, MADD is exerting pressure on state lawmakers to lower the legal blood-alcohol level (BAC) at which a person may be charged with "drunk driving" from the current 0.10 percent to 0.08 percent. The effort has already succeeded in Virginia, which dropped its standard for legal intoxication to 0.08 after a similar lobbying campaign by MADD.
The problem is neither MADD nor anyone else can objectively demonstrate why the threshold ought to be lowered. As with the much-hated "double nickel" speed limit of 55 mph, the 0.08 BAC standard is basically just an arbitrary number picked out of a hat.
"I was there when the reading was 0.15 and the doctors said, 'look, when you're at 0.13, you're intoxicated.' Then a few years went by and the doctors said, 'When you're 0.10, you're intoxicated.' But now, I haven't heard anyone come forward to say that, medically, at 0.08, you are intoxicated," said Maryland Democratic State Rep. Joseph F. Vallario Jr.
MADD counters that Mr. Vallario - who is also a criminal defense lawyer - has a vested interest in keeping the BAC level higher to protect his clients. But the other side of it is that MADD has never presented any scientific evidence that lowering the level from 0.10 to 0.08 will reduce highway fatalities - or that a person is significantly impaired at the 0.08 level. A 0.08 BAC can be reached after a person of average size and weight (about 150 pounds) consumes two beers, or the equivalent, within an hour.
"MADD's No. 1 priority is to lower the arrest threshold for [driving while intoxicated] to .08 - even though this level makes it illegal for a 120-lb. woman to drive after consuming just two glasses of wine over the course of 2 hours," says Rick Berman of the Alcohol Beverage Institute, the lobbying arm of the liquor industry.
Few reasonable people would characterize a person who has consumed two beers over an hour as "drunk." Yet the laws are being rapidly changed all across the country to the lower standard of 0.08. Seventeen states (as well as the District of Columbia) have written the 0.08 standard into law. The reason for the change, alas, has much more to do with political correctness - who wants to take issue with "Mothers" who are against "Drunk Driving"? - and federal pressure (the feds dangle millions in front of states that adopt 0.08) than with identifying impaired motorists.
In fact, studies of the matter have found that most alcohol-related crashes involve motorists with BAC levels of 0.12 or higher. These "super drunk" motorists are the ones doing the damage - yet the social drinker is taking most of the flack. The majority of drivers arrested for "driving under the influence" are caught in sobriety checkpoints; in other words, they were not driving erratically or giving any evidence of impairment. They simply ran afoul of the breathalyzer and a politically correct, arbitrarily chosen BAC threshold.
Here are some interesting facts:
* In 1996, more than 62 percent of all traffic fatalities considered to be "alcohol-related" were the work of drivers with BAC levels above .14 - almost twice the .08 level.
* According to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), fatality rates don't go up appreciably until you get above .10 BAC the previous legal threshold for "drunk driving" in most states.
* A study done by the Harvard Injury Control Center found that 67 percent of those drivers who were killed in automobile accidents after drinking had BAC levels of .15 or higher.
Yet MADD continues to make the unsupported claim that "at .08 BAC, a driver is 16 times more likely to be involved in a crash." MADD President Karolyn Nunnallee has argued that "many people are dangerously impaired at even .05 BAC" - which is about where you'd be after a little more than one beer on an empty stomach.
Remember that not so long ago, the BAC level in most states was 0.12 - exactly the threshold at which most of the alcohol-related accidents occur. Then politics began to supplant rationale lawmaking - and what began as a legitimate effort to address the danger of problem drinkers has become a self-perpetuating crusade against drinking, period. Even MADD's founder, Candy Lightner, thinks the movement has gone off the reservation. She describes it as "overzealous" and has disassociated herself from it. The drunk driver who killed her daughter had a BAC level of 0.20, incidentally.
"Police ought to be concentrating their resources on arresting drunk drivers - not those drivers who happen to have been drinking. I worry that the movement I helped create has lost direction," Mrs. Lightner has said.
It is to be hoped that Maryland will not bow to the demagoguery of MADD and that it will set BAC levels in accordance with medical reality, not anti-drinking hysteria.
 

Chaotic42

Lifer
Jun 15, 2001
35,117
2,266
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Originally posted by: flot
I would bet you $50 that in a room of 100 randomly selected people aged 21-35, at least 40 of them have driven with a BAC of 0.06 or higher at some point in their life. I suspect it would be more like 60-80.

If you really don't believe this is true, then I can only assume you live a very sheltered life. In all honesty, of my friend/peer group (which is a pretty normal sample of college kids and young professionals (I'm 28)) I'd guess that 80-90% of them have driven home drunk (using the current definition) at some point in the last 5 years.

In fact, the only people I know that I'd be confident in saying have NEVER driven home drunk are those who don't drink at all.

Just because a lot of people have done it, doesn't make it right or okay. I know a lot of people have done it, and it just isn't right. Everyone who has driven home drunk, and everyone who has been near them is really lucky that they didn't get into an accident.

Now, I was a bit harsh, it's wrong of me to just outright judge people who have done it, but it makes me sick to my stomach that anyone would defend drunk drivers. I guess it's a personal fault, but I can't help it.
 

KokomoGST

Diamond Member
Nov 13, 2001
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It still scares me anytime I hear about people that have definitely had more than a few talk about driving home drunk like it's a cool thing to do.

I try to avoid driving even if I've only had 1-2 beers in the last hour or at least until I definitely feel very sober.