Should don't ask, don't tell be repealed?

[woolfe9999]

It appears that Secretary Gates and Admiral Mullen have come out in favor of repealing it.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/02/02/gates-backs-repeal-dont-ask-dont-tell/
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35197645/ns/us_news-military

Thoughts?

- wolf

 

[Craig234]

Of course it should. It's another incremental step to ending bigoted policies.

 

[MJinZ]

Thumbs up

 

[daishi5]

Yes.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Obviously. Not a single good argument for it. I've been saying it since I was a teenager. I even campaigned for it while in the navy.

 

[woolfe9999]

No controversy on this one? None of the hoary old arguments about how it will destroy troop morale? What happened to the testosterone crew this morning?

- wolf

 

[Modelworks]

No controversy on this one? None of the hoary old arguments about how it will destroy troop morale? What happened to the testosterone crew this morning?

- wolf

It will not destroy troop morale but it will cause some problems for some people that decide to be open and I suspect there will be an increase in lawsuits claiming discrimination.

Most people in a unit know when they have a gay member. Sitting in a hole in the middle of nowhere a lot of topics come up and a lot of secrets get told.

 

[her209]

No controversy on this one? None of the hoary old arguments about how it will destroy troop morale? What happened to the testosterone crew this morning?

- wolf

Destroy troop morale as in how?

 

[woolfe9999]

Destroy troop morale as in how?

Don't ask me. This is the argument that was made when the Clintons originally proposed to lift the ban on gays in the military, which resulted in the DADT policy as a compromise.

Presumably, some people still think that gays shouldn't be allowed in the military. I am just curious as to how they justify it.

- wolf

 

[Craig234]

The bigots aren't hard to find with google.

 

[Elfear]

Since this subject has been in the news a lot lately, I asked some members of the armed services in my class what they thought. A femal offiicer said she didn't think it would work well right now. She said that she would worry about the safety of openly gay soldiers. Both officers I spoke with said that unit cohesion would suffer. The male officer felt that overall it wouldn't affect things too much because most soldiers know who is gay anyway.

My personal opinion is that it would cause more issues than it would solve. I know I would feel pretty uncomfortable showering with some guy who may be checking me out. To me it's like telling the female soldiers that they would have to start showering with the guys and sleeping in the same barracks.

 

[Pens1566]

Yes

 

[Jaskalas]

My personal opinion is that it would cause more issues than it would solve. I know I would feel pretty uncomfortable showering with some guy who may be checking me out. To me it's like telling the female soldiers that they would have to start showering with the guys and sleeping in the same barracks.

Segregation of the sexes is a fascinating point.

I don't know how one overcomes that argument unless they call for unisex showers and barracks.

 

[xj0hnx]

Has anyone that supports gays open in the military ever been in any type of combat unit? Infantry, tankers, scouts, recon ect ...?

My personal opinion is that it would cause more issues than it would solve. I know I would feel pretty uncomfortable showering with some guy who may be checking me out.

This. Most combat oriantated units are pretty close knit, this is not going to go over well, especially in situations like barracks where there's community showers, and room mate situations. Uncomfortable is a mild way of putting how some of this situations will be.

 

[Modelworks]

Segregation of the sexes is a fascinating point.

I don't know how one overcomes that argument unless they call for unisex showers and barracks.

I like how in the movie Starship Troopers all the squad goes into shower acting like sex or nudity isn't even thought about. That is how it should be, but would never work with people right now.

 

[TechBoyJK]

Has anyone that supports gays open in the military ever been in any type of combat unit? Infantry, tankers, scouts, recon ect ...?

This. Most combat oriantated units are pretty close knit, this is not going to go over well, especially in situations like barracks where there's community showers, and room mate situations. Uncomfortable is a mild way of putting how some of this situations will be.

This is the way I see it. Not all gay guys, but many of them creep me out. My lawyer is gay, but he's not "flaming" and you wouldn't know he was gay until he told you or he mentions his boyfriend. No gay lisp, no limp wrists, no fairyness. He shoots guns, goes hunting, etc. I respect him, and I think he'd be a good soldier.

HOWEVER, and this is a big however, there's no way I would feel comfortable showering with him knowing he is gay. If he wasn't able to suppress his homosexual tendancies and remain straight, how is going to act/feel showering with 20 nude, built soldiers?

I'm sorry but showering next to a dude with a raging hard on because he is around other dudes is a complicated situation. It doesn't mean I would feel any less safe with him on the battlefield, but it's in living situations, etc. that would be weird. I'd just rather not know.

I mean, how would you expect me (ME, TECHBOYJK) to feel and act showering with 20+ sexy soldier ladies?? Certainly my body chemistry would react to that situation.

 

[woolfe9999]

This is the way I see it. Not all gay guys, but many of them creep me out. My lawyer is gay, but he's not "flaming" and you wouldn't know he was gay until he told you or he mentions his boyfriend. No gay lisp, no limp wrists, no fairyness. He shoots guns, goes hunting, etc. I respect him, and I think he'd be a good soldier.

HOWEVER, and this is a big however, there's no way I would feel comfortable showering with him knowing he is gay. If he wasn't able to suppress his homosexual tendancies and remain straight, how is going to act/feel showering with 20 nude, built soldiers?

I'm sorry but showering next to a dude with a raging hard on because he is around other dudes is a complicated situation. It doesn't mean I would feel any less safe with him on the battlefield, but it's in living situations, etc. that would be weird. I'd just rather not know.

I mean, how would you expect me (ME, TECHBOYJK) to feel and act showering with 20+ sexy soldier ladies?? Certainly my body chemistry would react to that situation.

Presumably you are unused to showering "with 20+ sexy soldier ladies," unless you are quite lucky that is. I tend to think that gays have been showering with same sex people their entire lives, starting in school locker rooms, and they probably just don't think about it sexually the way you imagine they do. In other words, your analogy doesn't hold up so well.

Anyway, the other poster said they already basically know who is gay and who isn't, so I am having trouble seeing how this matters.

- wolf

 

[TechBoyJK]

Presumably you are unused to showering "with 20+ sexy soldier ladies," unless you are quite lucky that is. I tend to think that gays have been showering with same sex people their entire lives, starting in school locker rooms, and they probably just don't think about it sexually the way you imagine they do. In other words, your analogy doesn't hold up so well.

Anyway, the other poster said they already basically know who is gay and who isn't, so I am having trouble seeing how this matters.

- wolf

Even if I was lucky enough to having had showered with 20+ female soldiers my whole life, do you really think most ladies would be cool with that? No. Just like most guys aren't going to be cool with showering with gay men. Bigot or not, it's the truth. I'm not saying all guys will be, but I'm sure a significant amount will be.

 

[daishi5]

Presumably you are unused to showering "with 20+ sexy soldier ladies," unless you are quite lucky that is. I tend to think that gays have been showering with same sex people their entire lives, starting in school locker rooms, and they probably just don't think about it sexually the way you imagine they do. In other words, your analogy doesn't hold up so well.

Anyway, the other poster said they already basically know who is gay and who isn't, so I am having trouble seeing how this matters.

- wolf

I think it is a fair point, how many times would it take for a straight man to shower with 20 women in good shape before he no longer reacted to it? I am not gay so I don't know if it is the same. But, if being gay was merely the same as I am only attracted to men, I don't think they would ever come to a point where they were not affected.

However, other countries have "come out of the closet" so to speak with integrated militaries and it wasn't a problem. So, yes, lets repeal it.

 

[MrEgo]

Can someone please explain to me why DADT is a bad idea? I'm on the fence about this and I'd like to hear what opponents of DADT say about it.

 

[Zargon]

Presumably you are unused to showering "with 20+ sexy soldier ladies," unless you are quite lucky that is. I tend to think that gays have been showering with same sex people their entire lives, starting in school locker rooms, and they probably just don't think about it sexually the way you imagine they do. In other words, your analogy doesn't hold up so well.

Anyway, the other poster said they already basically know who is gay and who isn't, so I am having trouble seeing how this matters.

- wolf

what place that would have younger soldiers out there today had community showers in school?

I never did, and I am 28. Nor did any of my brothers or their friends, who are in the mid 30's.

At the gym you can tell the age barrier on community showering because all the middle aged guys stand around ass naked talking about BS while the younger guys towel off in the shower stall and wear a towel around.

I dont imagine it to be some giant problem, but I expect the issue to come up will be soldiers coming out the closet and unti members feeling betrayed or wierded out that they have been showering with that guy for 18months and sharing a bunk, putting every sexual joke he made into different context. It could cause issues. The Military is not known for its open minded progressive soldiers....

I have no personal issues for/against DADT, I just forsee that issue arising

 

[xj0hnx]

However, other countries have "come out of the closet" so to speak with integrated militaries and it wasn't a problem. So, yes, lets repeal it.

Other countries also have tits, and ass in shampoo commercials. Other countries are generally as a whole more tolerant of homosexuals throughout their cultures, but what is good for them doesn't mean it will work here, or is even a good idea. Personally, I don't see why it's even an issue, someone sexuality shouldn't be a criteria if they can do the job, there's no reason to make it public other than for some political agenda.

 

[Craig234]

Can someone please explain to me why DADT is a bad idea? I'm on the fence about this and I'd like to hear what opponents of DADT say about it.

I won't put a list up (but see how many are expelled), but there's one I'm primarily concerned with: it's unjustified discriminaton, allowing bigotry to set policy.

 

[woolfe9999]

what place that would have younger soldiers out there today had community showers in school?

I never did, and I am 28. Nor did any of my brothers or their friends, who are in the mid 30's.

At the gym you can tell the age barrier on community showering because all the middle aged guys stand around ass naked talking about BS while the younger guys towel off in the shower stall and wear a towel around.

I dont imagine it to be some giant problem, but I expect the issue to come up will be soldiers coming out the closet and unti members feeling betrayed or wierded out that they have been showering with that guy for 18months and sharing a bunk, putting every sexual joke he made into different context. It could cause issues. The Military is not known for its open minded progressive soldiers....

You didn't have showers in public school for gym class and athletics? I don't mean open to the public. I mean for the students.

The way I think of it is this. There would be some "weirding out" in the transition period, like right after the policy was put in place. But it wouldn't take long before people would get over it, though sporadic gay bashing incidents would likely occur in individual cases from time to time, indefinitely. As has been pointed out, most of our allies allow people to be openly gay in the military, and they don't seem to have any problems with it. Are our troops more homophobic than say British troops?

- wolf

 

[OutHouse]

<< 10 year veteran and i say get rid of it. too many good people are getting thrown out just because they are gay. let them server their country if they want just like any other American.