Short Intel and AMD! ARM servers coming in!!!

[Chiropteran]

there comes a point where it's "enough"

Not for virtual machine servers.

 

[cbn]

Very low power (and also pretty low performance) servers will have a place of course. Just how big of a place in the market, well that remains to be seen. I think it will be at most a niche product, but can see why it's an option.

I think I read somewhere a while back Intel was releasing Atom servers?

EDIT: Found the Anandtech article ---> http://www.anandtech.com/show/4222/...atom-to-servers-in-2012-20w-snb-xeons-in-2011

 

[ocre]

the performance per mhz?????

with ARM the performance per watt is massive compared to x86. This alone is reason enough for the ARM hype. PPL who think ARM is a joke dont see the significance. ARM at 40nm is still tons more efficient then x86. Even if intel had 22nm chips today they wouldnt catch ARMs 40nm performance per watt.

This is why their is an interest in ARM servers. I know most ppl here (by default) want to right off ARM. They dont think in any way it is competing with x86 but the reality is ARM is superior by far in performance per watt which should not be taken lightly (intel doesnt). Its up to the ppl making ARM CPUs to find ways to apply this massive advantage. There is most definitely a place for ARM cpus in the server space. Does this mean it will replace x86? Why does it always have to be this way or that? There is room for both, and will be for some time to come. Arm has a future servers, it will come to be. There are many many many companies with great interest here.

Arm has a place in the consumer market too, and that place is significant. Its not going anywhere but forward. Like it or not, ARM has advantages and is on the move. The current x86s advantages a huge wall, but ARM is like a flood of raising water that is all over looking for cracks to fill. The wall may always remain, but its not stopping ARM from flowing everywhere else. x86 growth is slowing to a crawl. yr to yr ARM is impressive. x86 may remain in its stronghold, but ARM isnt/doesnt have to defeat x86 to be successful. Out of the 2, x86 has grown and expanded to a point where its slow going, ARM currently is performing better than x86 ever has. And ARM is growing faster each and every yr. ARM out sells x86 cpus many many many times.

The x86 wall may remain for a long time, but its evident ARM will be the CPU for just about everything else. They do have merging markets, but they both currently have their own space. Why cant they exist as they do, together for some time to come. As for mobile, it is and will be ARM. x86 has its benefits, but in mobile applications ARM is the chip.

 

[cbn]

Even if intel had 22nm chips today they wouldnt catch ARMs 40nm performance per watt.

You must be talking about the Ivy Bridge/Haswell cores.

What about Intel atom servers?

 

[Dadofamunky]

You must be talking about the Ivy Bridge/Haswell cores.

What about Intel atom servers?

There is a company in Santa Clara, pretty much right around the block from my work, where they do this. They're called SeaMicro. It sounds like a very similar play to the HP/Calxeda system. Their stuff scales to 512 and 768 cores for a 10U system.

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/btl/seami...-atom-servers/45438?tag=content;siu-container

 

[Dadofamunky]

Oh, and boxes like this will be sitting in WeirdStuff surplus electronics store in Sunnyvale in 8 years, selling for $50 a chassis. Bet on it. Maybe even 5 years.

I actually agree with a lot of what Ocre is saying. I don't think Intel will be able to take over the mobile market. They've been trying for years. Atom was an almost complete nonfactor there.

I would like to see some objective and realistic efficiency measurements between ARM and Intel before I jsut handed them the crown, though.

 

[cbn]

There is a company in Santa Clara, pretty much right around the block from my work, where they do this. They're called SeaMicro. It sounds like a very similar play to the HP/Calxeda system. Their stuff scales to 512 and 768 cores for a 10U system.

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/btl/seami...-atom-servers/45438?tag=content;siu-container

Oh, and boxes like this will be sitting in WeirdStuff surplus electronics store in Sunnyvale in 8 years, selling for $50 a chassis. Bet on it. Maybe even 5 years.

I read about SeaMicro a while back.

I am under the impression the upcoming Intel atom server SOCs will be much different. In fact, wasn't it Mircosoft that requested Intel make these new atom server SOCs ?

 

[cbn]

Microsoft Presses Intel for 16 core atom Server Chip

"There's a "huge opportunity" to improve energy efficiency by using servers based on small, low-power chip designs such as Intel's Atom and Advanced Micro Devices' Bobcat, said Dileep Bhandarkar, a distinguished engineer with Microsoft's Global Foundation Services, which runs the company's data centers."

 

[ocre]

You must be talking about the Ivy Bridge/Haswell cores.

What about Intel atom servers?

no comparison. We can look at it like this: performance per watt being directly connected to calculations per watt. ARM is big in the ultra low power segments because of this. Atom cannot touch ARM cpus in this fact. Are current ARM chips more efficient than ATOM, absolutely! by far. x86 is not even close here.

What you are asking, or what most ppl are confusing is related to ipc (instruction per cycle). This is a completely different scale. One which ARM exist with ARM chips and x86 exist with x86. Its hard to compair the two cross platform but its a common knowledge x86 generally kills ARM when it comes to calculations per cycle. This is the major difference. ARM has a lot of work to be as powerful as x86 CPUs but this isnt really the driving force of ARM the way it has been for x86. But ARM is now entering into that sort of race. The scary part is if we keep (scale) the calculations/performance per watt the same, a 95 ow 125w ARM cpu would demolish an X86 design. But the reality is that it really doesnt work like that. ARM will have a long road if it wants to produce powerful chips. The reality is ARM is on its own path, independent entirely.

As far as seeing where arm is now. Its hard to directly compare as the software is completely different. This makes it complex to directly put x86 against ARM in a meaningful way. ARM is the design for mobile applications and now there is huge software support sealing the deal. Atom isnt the technology that makes the ipad2 shine. Look at some of the games coming for these quad core tablets and you will be further impressed. ARM has bagged the mobile ultra low power segment and already x86 is irreverent in the tablet space.

We are talking two different architectures with two different sets of drawbacks and advantages. ARM exist today where its makes the most since. ARM is growing fast and has momentum but its on its own path. X86 is doing more to try to move into ARM territory than ARM is the desktop. The reason is the growth in the ARM market is huge, x86 wants that market. So in this aspect we have a battle, the battle of x86 to take some of ARMs territory, not the other way around. But for now, ARm is clearly the CPU for those mobile task, and x86 has little chance to invade on ARMs market. A low margin market that ARM outsells x86 cpus 10 to 1.

This is why i say x86 is the wall, its not moving fast but its not going anywhere too soon. There is a market for both x86 and ARM, and to me they are clearly different applications of silicon technology.

 

[beginner99]

The faster a core gets, the less efficient it is. That is basically one of the main reason to create dual and quad core cpus. Once ARM scales up, the will get less efficient. i also don't believe the "fast enough" claim. maybe when a mobile phone can render 100% real-looking movies in real-time. but i doubt even then such a wall exists.

I agree low power servers have a not so small niche but that problem is solved with virtualization. Assume 1 socket server with 32 GB RAM and a Xeon 6-core. I guess you can easily put 32 low usage vm's on it, probably even 64. Plus that server is obviously more flexible because it could also be used for a more demanding application.

 

[-Slacker-]

"Very low power servers"? Need I remind you all that the cpus/apus aren't the only pieces of hardware that eat up electricity in a server?

Let's see ... servers need a lot of ram and will have at least 4 sticks of it, that's 3w * 4.

Mobo will eat at least 10w.

Several 10~15w hard drives.

Etc.

Say ARM comes up with some 5w chips, while Intel and AMD can only muster up 10... 15. ... 20w processors in order to compete at that level. What will that do for ARM? When you climb down to such low levels of power consumption, differences in said consumption from chip to chip matter less and less, because you also have to factor in overall power consumption coming from every other piece of hardware in the server which, at this point, challenges or surpasses the chips in power consumption.

A 100w ARM server may sound impressive, but not if it's far slower than a 115w x86 server, which it will probably be.

 

[Keysplayr]

I wonder what the talk would have been like when just before Intel started to really encroach on RISC processors. Did anyone Guffaw at such a notion that this x86 arch would unseat and virtually annihilate RISC? Did anyone "Pffft" x86? Blow them off?
I'm fairly certain there were those that did.
IMHO, ARM should not be underestimated. The whole world is leaning mobile. Tablets, Ipads, Smartphones, Kindles, Ultraportable lappys.

No. ARM should be taken seriously IMHO.

 

[podspi]

I wonder what the talk would have been like when just before Intel started to really encroach on RISC processors. Did anyone Guffaw at such a notion that this x86 arch would unseat and virtually annihilate RISC? Did anyone "Pffft" x86? Blow them off?
I'm fairly certain there were those that did.
IMHO, ARM should not be underestimated. The whole world is leaning mobile. Tablets, Ipads, Smartphones, Kindles, Ultraportable lappys.

No. ARM should be taken seriously IMHO.

And that's why all of a sudden Atom is part of Intel's Tick-Tock strategy, and will be getting process improvements much quicker. Intel woke up and realized if they don't get going, ARM is going to gain momentum that will be hard to stop.

IMHO, with HP making ARM servers (if that rumor is true), and Microsoft releasing Win8 for ARM -- they may already be too late. Which isn't to say that x86/Intel/AMD are going to be wiped out, but they certainly didn't wipe out the threat in its infancy.


Moving Atom to 32nm after two years with virtually no architecture improvements was a huge strategic error on Intel's part, imho. But I bet they will come out swinging with Silvermont.

 

[tommo123]

if intel wanted to (and still had a massive fab advantage), couldn't they take ARM, fab it themselves and beat every other player at power and or performance? couldn't they then make their own extensions and hardware tweaks and not licence it to anyone else thereby lock everyone else out of the ARM game? i mean x86 is public domain now right/or close to it but it's worth nothing since everything needs one of intels (or AMDs) extensions to work.

 

[Elixer]

We should all be waiting for ARM's new CPU, codename plow.
IPC will increase!
When coupled with their new FPU, codename bovine, it is pure magic!

 

[Keysplayr]

We should all be waiting for ARM's new CPU, codename plow.
IPC will increase!
When coupled with their new FPU, codename bovine, it is pure magic!

What's the scoop? Any numbers? Or is this just theoretical leak material?

 

[soccerballtux]

Not for virtual machine servers.

correct just sbeaking of bhone-tablet-labtobs as reblacements for desktobs that's all. Not in server realm no of course not

 

[SickBeast]

Power consumption is becoming more and more important. We're approaching the limit of what a single electrical outlet can put out with high performance PCs. We're reaching a point where efficiency is key, and it will drive performance increases at around the same rate as other technological breakthroughs.

I'm not sure how much more efficient the ARM chips are compared to x86, however it must be quite significant considering the fact that they are dominating the smart phone market.

ARM is coming up fast and furious. I say give them 2-3 years and they will match what an x86 CPU can do in terms of performance, and if they continue on their current trend, they will do it with significantly less power consumption and heat output, which is key.

All of that being said, people are going to want to run their x86 applications. I don't see ARM taking over within the next 10 years.

All Intel and AMD need to do is to licence their technology. They're in the driver's seat with their x86 patents.

 

[soccerballtux]

Power consumption is becoming more and more important. We're approaching the limit of what a single electrical outlet can put out with high performance PCs. We're reaching a point where efficiency is key, and it will drive performance increases at around the same rate as other technological breakthroughs.

I'm not sure how much more efficient the ARM chips are compared to x86, however it must be quite significant considering the fact that they are dominating the smart phone market.

ARM is coming up fast and furious. I say give them 2-3 years and they will match what an x86 CPU can do in terms of performance, and if they continue on their current trend, they will do it with significantly less power consumption and heat output, which is key.

All of that being said, people are going to want to run their x86 applications. I don't see ARM taking over within the next 10 years.

All Intel and AMD need to do is to licence their technology. They're in the driver's seat with their x86 patents.

what? we're approaching 2000 watt PCs? That's news to me

 

[ocre]

The faster a core gets, the less efficient it is. That is basically one of the main reason to create dual and quad core cpus. Once ARM scales up, the will get less efficient. i also don't believe the "fast enough" claim. maybe when a mobile phone can render 100% real-looking movies in real-time. but i doubt even then such a wall exists.

I agree low power servers have a not so small niche but that problem is solved with virtualization. Assume 1 socket server with 32 GB RAM and a Xeon 6-core. I guess you can easily put 32 low usage vm's on it, probably even 64. Plus that server is obviously more flexible because it could also be used for a more demanding application.

No doubt, it remains to be see how it pans out. We are all debating this as if ARM is even trying to go after x86 markets, its not. The x86 market is a tiny drop in the bucket for ARM. Most ppl dont see the huge difference, arm out sells x86 chips at about 10 to 1.

Arm is a long way from the x86 performance, and i dont see this as their direct goal. The reason ARM is still so energy efficient is because of the place it fell in and the direction and care of the design. Arm will continue on this path as their chips become more powerful. You have to realize there is a drastic difference in calculations per watt. This is a huge leg up on designing a super powerful chip. Its something that is a plus, but its not like they can just *poof* killer x86 chip.

ARM is a design that found a place that no current design can touch at the moment. x86 has found a place of its very own. The x86 market is steady shrinking, its growth yr to yr shows a shrinking market. ARM yr to yr is extremely impressive. Never has a technology boomed as such. This is where you see that something big is happening. The ARM future is ripe and fruitful, its overflowing into the bottom of x86. tablets are an evolution of the devices that ARM excelled in. Tablets will be an ARM market. Will tablets effect laptop sales?

ARM is changing the game. We dont need ARM to compete with x86 to be successful, but x86 must compete with ARM (even intel thinks so) in order to really grow. The ARM market is massive and overspilling into the x86 realm. And it is doing this by not actually even competing with x86 directly. Time will move on, and so will ARM and x86. ARM isnt going after intel or x86 directly as most ppl dramatize.

Currently ARM is where it makes the most sense. The potintial is there for ARM to be an extremely powerful microprocessor at high watts but why jump there? ARM will continue inching further and compete only within itself. Intel will be top dawg for high performance CPUs for sometime, but intel wants to gain traction in the ARM market. Not the other way around. The landscape looks much more promising for the ARM market.

We may be using x86 CPUs for many yrs to come, but ARM is no joke. Without even coming close to x86 performance, intel is taking ARM very very seriously. ARM is an unstoppable force in mobile applications. This is their focus, and not to beat x86. Truly its the other way around, intel wants to beat ARM and protect its static empire. And even if intel did stop ARM invading its space, it would do little to stop ARM.

 

[cbn]

The x86 market is steady shrinking, its growth yr to yr shows a shrinking market. ARM yr to yr is extremely impressive. Never has a technology boomed as such. This is where you see that something big is happening. The ARM future is ripe and fruitful, its overflowing into the bottom of x86. tablets are an evolution of the devices that ARM excelled in. Tablets will be an ARM market. Will tablets effect laptop sales?

I think Tablets (or more likely Laptop docks for ARMv8 phones) could start effecting Windowsx86 Laptop sales if the Google Operating systems continue to evolve.

In this case I actually think the slow evolution is actually benefiting ARM more than hurting them. They certainly seem to have a lot of developers due to the ARM CPUs being installed in lowest common denominator devices.

Once a certain "Tipping point" is reached, I think we will see ARM overtake Intel in a much faster fashion. Of course, Intel sees this possibility coming and is no doubt making various plans to prevent the "Tipping point" from happening.

 

[cbn]

what? we're approaching 2000 watt PCs? That's news to me

Maybe 2000 watt PCs exist, but the number of people needing even a basic 250 watt machine to check email and do office work is decreasing on a yearly basis.

Therefore I can see this category of computers you are describing shrinking every year and in the process becoming less and less relevant.

 

[SickBeast]

what? we're approaching 2000 watt PCs? That's news to me

We are with multi-GPU high end PCs.

The lights flicker in my house when I wake my computer up. D:



The need for bigger power supplies seems to keep growing and growing in recent years, without massive jumps in performance to go along with it.

I don't think it will be long before 2000w PSUs become "normal". The thing is, what's going to happen to people's houses electrically when we get there? Perhaps we can hook our computer up to the dryer's socket. :thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[Keysplayr]

We are with multi-GPU high end PCs.

The lights flicker in my house when I wake my computer up. D:



The need for bigger power supplies seems to keep growing and growing in recent years, without massive jumps in performance to go along with it.

I don't think it will be long before 2000w PSUs become "normal". The thing is, what's going to happen to people's houses electrically when we get there? Perhaps we can hook our computer up to the dryer's socket. :thumbsup::thumbsup:

Then it's time for an electrician. You have 2xGTX 460's right?
I had 2xGTX480's running and the lights didn't flicker when my rig woke up.

 

[quest55720]

I think Tablets (or more likely Laptop docks for ARMv8 phones) could start effecting Windowsx86 Laptop sales if the Google Operating systems continue to evolve.

In this case I actually think the slow evolution is actually benefiting ARM more than hurting them. They certainly seem to have a lot of developers due to the ARM CPUs being installed in lowest common denominator devices.

Once a certain "Tipping point" is reached, I think we will see ARM overtake Intel in a much faster fashion. Of course, Intel sees this possibility coming and is no doubt making various plans to prevent the "Tipping point" from happening.

People don't want crappy atom powered netbooks. What makes you think they want an even more under powered arm powered laptop with a phone version of windows on it? Really ARM is great for phones. It still under powered for anything else.