Short conversation with Grandpa

[SlitheryDee]

Well in the area that I live in there's a small freely distributed paper called "The Conservative" that enjoys a wide readership and supports itself through local advertising.

As the paper itself states, its about "News and politics from a Christian perspective". Its basically like taking the opinions section of a regular newspaper and specifying a religious slant with recurring authors.

Although I tend to disagree with most of the content, I read every new edition of "The Conservative" without fail as it always inspires awe, shock, anger, or at least amusement.

There's one fellow by the name of James Dobson (he's on wikipedia) who always seems to rate a front page spot. His articles are always the best as you get a sense over time of some sort of imaginary battle he's waging with "The Secular Humanists" and how he seems to think that they're everywhere, influencing everything. The Humanists are apparently making solid progress in their aims to make abortion manditory, homosexuality a part of the mainstream, and allowing terrorists to destroy the country (etc.).

So I get my jollies reading this paper every month all the while thinking that no one REALLY believes that things are that bad.

One day I was talking to my grandfather, who also reads "The Conservative", and I jokingly mentioned that "James Dobson seems to think the world is going to hell in a handbasket" (lol). To which he replied "Well it is." ( )

To me the world as a whole seems like a better place to live than it was in the past. The average lifespan of a person is rising steadily, all wars and conflicts are under close scrutiny by not only the governments involved, but by the populations of those governments (see war in Iraq), and the world seems to be very healthy as far as general morality (excluding U.S. intervention it's really more of the same in the Mid East right?).

Well is it or isn't it?


Cliffs:

I jokingly tell grandpa that someone in a newspaper thinks that the world is going to hell in a handbasket.

He agrees

Is it really?

 

[CrackRabbit]

The world is going to hell in a handbasket, but not for the reasons Mr. Dobson thinks.

 

[Malak]

The world is simply repeating history. My guess is that the average citizen of earth will in fact find a less than cozy spot in hell when they finally hit the dirt. Especially many people that claim to be Christian.

 

[iamaelephant]

The world is in a better place than ever. Although there are still awful things happening all over the place, it could be (and has been) much worse. A lot of Christians and other religious zealots believe the world is falling apart because less people live their lives in a manner approved of by their particular religious text. People are screwing out of wedlock and homosexuals have rights. Young people are using curse words and watching porn. Of course none of this is actually terribly bad for society, but it is forbidden by religious relics that many people depend on.

Edit - to clarify my opinion of the state of the world in general, things are still pretty bad. We are constantly on the verge of nuclear self-destruction and conflicts in the middle east are noting short of terrifying. But things could be worse.

 

[Howard]

Originally posted by: Malak
The world is simply repeating history. My guess is that the average citizen of earth will in fact find a less than cozy spot in hell when they finally hit the dirt. Especially many people that claim to be Christian.

You should work for John Kerry.

 

[JS80]

1930s - depression
1940s - WW2
Post WW2 - 1990s - Nuclear annhilation
1950s - Korea
1960s - Vietnam
1970s - Oil Spike
1980s - Rate increases, inflation mortgage
1990s - Gulf War, Palestinian suicide bombers, tech crash
2000s - 9/11, Afghanistan, Iraq

World is always going to hell in a hand basket.

 

[Kaido]

No, I was actually talking about this with my dad recently. He said that when my grandpa retired, he got the same attitude about the world - it was because he started reading the newspapers. Same with my great-grandpa. Work, enjoy life...retire, start reading the newspaper and watching the news on tv...think that the world is going to the dogs

 

[djheater]

As a lapsed Unitarian Universalist, I've been around a lot of humanists, and I can tell you for a fact, there really aren't that many of them, they're just so extremely irritating that it seems like there are a lot of them.

I hold them in about the same regard as Evnagelicals. The suffer the same zealotry.

 

[Malak]

Originally posted by: Howard

Originally posted by: Malak
The world is simply repeating history. My guess is that the average citizen of earth will in fact find a less than cozy spot in hell when they finally hit the dirt. Especially many people that claim to be Christian.

You should work for John Kerry.

I would rather tie my good buddy to a cement block and drop it in a pool of flesh eating piranhas than even shake hands with that droopy-faced piece of crap. You can quote me on that.

 

[desy]

Just tell its built on the foundation his generation laid

 

[slackerinabox]

One problem with the country right now is this battle that Mr. Dobson does identify properly - the battle between the secular society and the religious, faith based politics of the past. I, for one, think that this blurring between church and state is dangerous and embrace our secular roots - the separation between church and state was a founding principal of these United States and I personally feel that "faith based initiatives" are dangerous and counter-productive. So Mr. Dobson is right - there is friction between these two worlds. But, while he views it as our downfall, I believe much beauty can be found in this secular truth - that all men and women are equal, regardless of race, gender, sexual preference, and religion.

 

[Howard]

Originally posted by: Malak

Originally posted by: Howard

Originally posted by: Malak
The world is simply repeating history. My guess is that the average citizen of earth will in fact find a less than cozy spot in hell when they finally hit the dirt. Especially many people that claim to be Christian.

You should work for John Kerry.

I would rather tie my good buddy to a cement block and drop it in a pool of flesh eating piranhas than even shake hands with that droopy-faced piece of crap. You can quote me on that.

Stop flip-flopping then.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: freedomsbeat212
One problem with the country right now is this battle that Mr. Dobson does identify properly - the battle between the secular society and the religious, faith based politics of the past. I, for one, think that this blurring between church and state is dangerous and embrace our secular roots - the separation between church and state was a founding principal of these United States and I personally feel that "faith based initiatives" are dangerous and counter-productive. So Mr. Dobson is right - there is friction between these two worlds. But, while he views it as our downfall, I believe much beauty can be found in this secular truth - that all men and women are equal, regardless of race, gender, sexual preference, and religion.

So where in the Constitution does it say Church and State should be separate?

 

[Malak]

Originally posted by: Howard

Originally posted by: Malak

Originally posted by: Howard

Originally posted by: Malak
The world is simply repeating history. My guess is that the average citizen of earth will in fact find a less than cozy spot in hell when they finally hit the dirt. Especially many people that claim to be Christian.

You should work for John Kerry.

I would rather tie my good buddy to a cement block and drop it in a pool of flesh eating piranhas than even shake hands with that droopy-faced piece of crap. You can quote me on that.

Stop flip-flopping then.

I can only assume that is supposed to be some political terminology I am unaware of.

 

[K1052]

That's just something most old people say (and have since time immemorial). Give them their meds, tune the TV to Matlock, and pay no attention.

 

[slackerinabox]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: freedomsbeat212
One problem with the country right now is this battle that Mr. Dobson does identify properly - the battle between the secular society and the religious, faith based politics of the past. I, for one, think that this blurring between church and state is dangerous and embrace our secular roots - the separation between church and state was a founding principal of these United States and I personally feel that "faith based initiatives" are dangerous and counter-productive. So Mr. Dobson is right - there is friction between these two worlds. But, while he views it as our downfall, I believe much beauty can be found in this secular truth - that all men and women are equal, regardless of race, gender, sexual preference, and religion.

So where in the Constitution does it say Church and State should be separate?

Where in the Constitution does it say that we are a Christian country?

 

[djheater]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: freedomsbeat212
One problem with the country right now is this battle that Mr. Dobson does identify properly - the battle between the secular society and the religious, faith based politics of the past. I, for one, think that this blurring between church and state is dangerous and embrace our secular roots - the separation between church and state was a founding principal of these United States and I personally feel that "faith based initiatives" are dangerous and counter-productive. So Mr. Dobson is right - there is friction between these two worlds. But, while he views it as our downfall, I believe much beauty can be found in this secular truth - that all men and women are equal, regardless of race, gender, sexual preference, and religion.

So where in the Constitution does it say Church and State should be separate?

based on the implication of your statement, I'm guessing a letter from the author won't be enough to persuade you of his intent.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mr. President

To messers Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem & approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful & zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, and in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more & more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state. [Congress thus inhibited from acts respecting religion, and the Executive authorised only to execute their acts, I have refrained from presenting even occasional performances of devotion presented indeed legally where an Executive is the legal head of a national church, but subject here, as religious exercises only to the voluntary regulations and discipline of each respective sect.] Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common Father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves and your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.

(signed) Thomas Jefferson
Jan.1.1802.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: freedomsbeat212

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: freedomsbeat212
One problem with the country right now is this battle that Mr. Dobson does identify properly - the battle between the secular society and the religious, faith based politics of the past. I, for one, think that this blurring between church and state is dangerous and embrace our secular roots - the separation between church and state was a founding principal of these United States and I personally feel that "faith based initiatives" are dangerous and counter-productive. So Mr. Dobson is right - there is friction between these two worlds. But, while he views it as our downfall, I believe much beauty can be found in this secular truth - that all men and women are equal, regardless of race, gender, sexual preference, and religion.

So where in the Constitution does it say Church and State should be separate?

Where in the Constitution does it say that we are a Christian country?

Where in my post did I imply that?

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

Terrorism
global warming
melting ice caps
nuclear proliferation
rogue countries
global hate
gangs murder instead of getting into fistfights
myspace
Paris Hilton

Needs I say more ... often I wonder if my new born child is going to die horribly as the Earth destroys itself because of what man has done to it.

 

[slackerinabox]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: freedomsbeat212

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: freedomsbeat212
One problem with the country right now is this battle that Mr. Dobson does identify properly - the battle between the secular society and the religious, faith based politics of the past. I, for one, think that this blurring between church and state is dangerous and embrace our secular roots - the separation between church and state was a founding principal of these United States and I personally feel that "faith based initiatives" are dangerous and counter-productive. So Mr. Dobson is right - there is friction between these two worlds. But, while he views it as our downfall, I believe much beauty can be found in this secular truth - that all men and women are equal, regardless of race, gender, sexual preference, and religion.

So where in the Constitution does it say Church and State should be separate?

Where in the Constitution does it say that we are a Christian country?

Where in my post did I imply that?

Do you like answering questions with questions?

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: djheater

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: freedomsbeat212
One problem with the country right now is this battle that Mr. Dobson does identify properly - the battle between the secular society and the religious, faith based politics of the past. I, for one, think that this blurring between church and state is dangerous and embrace our secular roots - the separation between church and state was a founding principal of these United States and I personally feel that "faith based initiatives" are dangerous and counter-productive. So Mr. Dobson is right - there is friction between these two worlds. But, while he views it as our downfall, I believe much beauty can be found in this secular truth - that all men and women are equal, regardless of race, gender, sexual preference, and religion.

So where in the Constitution does it say Church and State should be separate?

based on the implication of your statement, I'm guessing a letter from the author won't be enough to persuade you of his intent.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mr. President

To messers Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem & approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful & zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, and in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more & more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state. [Congress thus inhibited from acts respecting religion, and the Executive authorised only to execute their acts, I have refrained from presenting even occasional performances of devotion presented indeed legally where an Executive is the legal head of a national church, but subject here, as religious exercises only to the voluntary regulations and discipline of each respective sect.] Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common Father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves and your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.

(signed) Thomas Jefferson
Jan.1.1802.

"make no law respecting an establishment of religion" can be interpreted 11ty billion ways. But to assume Jefferson intended to go as far as what the left is trying to do in this country because of his interpretive statement "thus building a wall of separation between church and state" is absurd.

 

[Malak]

Originally posted by: IHateMyJob2004
Terrorism
global warming
melting ice cabs
nuclear proliferation
rogue countries
global hate
gangs murder instead of getting into fistfights
Paris Hilton

Needs I say more ... often I wonder if my new born child is going to die horribly as the Earth destroys itself because of what man has done to it.

Hi, welcome to the last millenium. Or wait, the last 10,000 years of civilization. History simply repeats itself today. American is the new Rome. It'll all fall apart and rebuild itself again, under a new guise.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: freedomsbeat212

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: freedomsbeat212

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: freedomsbeat212
One problem with the country right now is this battle that Mr. Dobson does identify properly - the battle between the secular society and the religious, faith based politics of the past. I, for one, think that this blurring between church and state is dangerous and embrace our secular roots - the separation between church and state was a founding principal of these United States and I personally feel that "faith based initiatives" are dangerous and counter-productive. So Mr. Dobson is right - there is friction between these two worlds. But, while he views it as our downfall, I believe much beauty can be found in this secular truth - that all men and women are equal, regardless of race, gender, sexual preference, and religion.

So where in the Constitution does it say Church and State should be separate?

Where in the Constitution does it say that we are a Christian country?

Where in my post did I imply that?

Do you like answering questions with questions?

What do you think?

 

[SlitheryDee]

Originally posted by: freedomsbeat212
One problem with the country right now is this battle that Mr. Dobson does identify properly - the battle between the secular society and the religious, faith based politics of the past. I, for one, think that this blurring between church and state is dangerous and embrace our secular roots - the separation between church and state was a founding principal of these United States and I personally feel that "faith based initiatives" are dangerous and counter-productive. So Mr. Dobson is right - there is friction between these two worlds. But, while he views it as our downfall, I believe much beauty can be found in this secular truth - that all men and women are equal, regardless of race, gender, sexual preference, and religion.

It seems like it would be enough to just be allowed the freedom to believe what you want to believe, but religions and their adherents demand more.

I think I understand why. If I believed that I knew an absolute truth and that that truth would give me eternal life, then human government would be nothing in the face of it. If I could use the human government to my own ends then I would. I would do it and ignore everything else in the process.

Separation of church and state seems almost impossible when the church will always see itself as greater than the state.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: djheater

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: freedomsbeat212
One problem with the country right now is this battle that Mr. Dobson does identify properly - the battle between the secular society and the religious, faith based politics of the past. I, for one, think that this blurring between church and state is dangerous and embrace our secular roots - the separation between church and state was a founding principal of these United States and I personally feel that "faith based initiatives" are dangerous and counter-productive. So Mr. Dobson is right - there is friction between these two worlds. But, while he views it as our downfall, I believe much beauty can be found in this secular truth - that all men and women are equal, regardless of race, gender, sexual preference, and religion.

So where in the Constitution does it say Church and State should be separate?

based on the implication of your statement, I'm guessing a letter from the author won't be enough to persuade you of his intent.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mr. President

To messers Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem & approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful & zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, and in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more & more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state. [Congress thus inhibited from acts respecting religion, and the Executive authorised only to execute their acts, I have refrained from presenting even occasional performances of devotion presented indeed legally where an Executive is the legal head of a national church, but subject here, as religious exercises only to the voluntary regulations and discipline of each respective sect.] Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common Father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves and your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.

(signed) Thomas Jefferson
Jan.1.1802.

"make no law respecting an establishment of religion" can be interpreted 11ty billion ways. But to assume Jefferson intended to go as far as what the left is trying to do in this country because of his interpretive statement "thus building a wall of separation between church and state" is absurd.

I'm not so sure.

Jefferson had an almost pathological fear of the possible influence of organized religion upon the state and a general distrust of clergy.