An all out gun ban would never work...
McVeigh blew a building up, he didn't shoot anybody did he?
But, he is part of the "Wacko" factor I was talking about. Just about nothing will stop a wacko from leaving their mark on society. It's unfortunate.
Well I just came back from lunch around 2:30 eastern time and it was at least 4 dead and 5 injured. The problem is this too many guns, too many guns, too many guns, too many guns. I could say it a thousand times there are just too many damn guns in our country and they are easily obtained. When you factor this with the fact guns can be used to kill several people at one time it makes you wonder why people keep saying taking away guns is not the answer. Well if its not the answer what is it? It would be difficult for people to commit mass murders like this without guns. While gun advocates keep whining about their gun rights people just keep dying. I would much rather have a person go home and come back with knife or bat than a gun. If you can't stop the people from doing this type of behavior at least take away the most deadly thing that people use when they go off. The most deadly thing, ladies and gentlemen, is a gun.
Come on now. You guys saying its not the guns and that its the people just sound foolish. How can you dispute facts. England and Canada have much less guns and in turn have virtually no gun violence.
To say that if you take our right to bear arms away it will just leave guns in the criminals hands is ludicrous and just what you have been force fed by republicans. Of course some criminals would still have guns but it would drastically drop and if they were caught they would do a hell of a lot longer in jail then they get now.
When there are no guns being sold legally it makes them much more difficult to get one. Criminals get guns by stealing them from law abiding people. If those people don't have them the criminals have no way to get them.
If you need to protect yourself you can just as easily use a shotgun. Right to bear arms is a foolish argument and until things change with the gun laws these senseless killings will not stop.
If people can't see these facts for what they are then they must be blind. All they need to do is look at the countries with very, very stringent gun laws. Gun control(abolishment)works. Citizens have no need for guns.
What we need to do is make handguns illigal and make having one punishable by a few years in jail,no questions asked. Our laws are weak. We already have laws stating that a felon cannot own a gun yet they still get them. Why? Because what do they have to lose? A month in jail? They are to readily avaliable for criminals and it will be that way until the only people allowed to have one is a police officer.
The right to bear arms was written 200 years ago when we lived in cabins and had to worry about our horses being stolen and there just was not as much law enforcement protection. There is no need anymore. Thats what is wrong with this country,people think laws that were written 200 years ago should stay on the books because its part of our constitution. Ever hear of an ammendment? Times have changed,people have changed and our laws need to change also.
To say that if you take our right to bear arms away it will just leave guns in the criminals hands is ludicrous and just what you have been force fed by republicans. Of course some criminals would still have guns but it would drastically drop and if they were caught they would do a hell of a lot longer in jail then they get now.
When there are no guns being sold legally it makes them much more difficult to get one. Criminals get guns by stealing them from law abiding people. If those people don't have them the criminals have no way to get them.
If you need to protect yourself you can just as easily use a shotgun. Right to bear arms is a foolish argument and until things change with the gun laws these senseless killings will not stop.
If people can't see these facts for what they are then they must be blind. All they need to do is look at the countries with very, very stringent gun laws. Gun control(abolishment)works. Citizens have no need for guns.
What we need to do is make handguns illigal and make having one punishable by a few years in jail,no questions asked. Our laws are weak. We already have laws stating that a felon cannot own a gun yet they still get them. Why? Because what do they have to lose? A month in jail? They are to readily avaliable for criminals and it will be that way until the only people allowed to have one is a police officer.
The right to bear arms was written 200 years ago when we lived in cabins and had to worry about our horses being stolen and there just was not as much law enforcement protection. There is no need anymore. Thats what is wrong with this country,people think laws that were written 200 years ago should stay on the books because its part of our constitution. Ever hear of an ammendment? Times have changed,people have changed and our laws need to change also.
Oh,and I agree that gun crimes in America are the norm. People don't pay attention or give much thought here in Providence when someone is shot. Its an everyday occurance. If you can't see that then either your eyes have blinders on them or you live under a rock. We are desensatized to the violence nowadays.
Wouldn't have stopped Timothy McVeigh???
They wouldn't have stopped Hitler either...what does that prove? Nothing!
The truly psycho will find a way to do it.
And yes, if there weren't guns, criminals would find some other weapon. But, that weapon would be no where near as dangerous.
How many times has a knife accidentally gone off and killed someone?
The guy who took a machete to school last week didn't kill a single person!!!
The facts show that countries where guns are more difficult to obtain have lower crime and murder rates. There is no arguing that no matter how cool you think it is to own a gun.
EDIT: One of the things that has been proven effective is Richmond's Project Exile. If you're caught with an illegal gun in Richmond, you're turned over to the feds and you spend time in a federal penitentary.
They wouldn't have stopped Hitler either...what does that prove? Nothing!
The truly psycho will find a way to do it.
And yes, if there weren't guns, criminals would find some other weapon. But, that weapon would be no where near as dangerous.
How many times has a knife accidentally gone off and killed someone?
The guy who took a machete to school last week didn't kill a single person!!!
The facts show that countries where guns are more difficult to obtain have lower crime and murder rates. There is no arguing that no matter how cool you think it is to own a gun.
EDIT: One of the things that has been proven effective is Richmond's Project Exile. If you're caught with an illegal gun in Richmond, you're turned over to the feds and you spend time in a federal penitentary.
Actually it's difficult for criminals up here to get guns too. The cops here have known for a long time that multiple crimes performed by multiple criminals are usually perpetrated with the same gun - i.e. the gun does the rounds. I read a story about how they tracked a gun back to it's first owner: an Atlantan woman who was paid $200 to purchase it for some guy who asked her to outside the store. This gun had been used in multiple shootings around Toronto.
Having had lowlife scum gang bangers in my high school I know for a fact too that the gun (not plural...notice) they had was a modified air gun and it probably was a complete fake. Their weapons of choice were sharp objects - knife, ninja star.
The only criminals up here in Canada that seem to have _real_ guns (i.e. not model ones, not air guns, etc) are hardcore criminals that would not target a random individual anyway - i.e. organized crime.
I would buy the argument that American gun advocates push: "if we ban guns then only criminals would have them" if it weren't for the fact that given an incident where a criminal decides to attack you, chances are their biggest advantage won't be a weapon but the element of surprise - in which case the benefit of carrying a sidearm is questionable.
But as far as shootings such as these go, the real issue has to do with mental illness. Given the fact that mental illness is such a terrible disease, the state needs to be able to 1) identify potential victims of mental illness and 2) treat these people (forceably if they have to). Additionally, the stigma attached to mental illnesses has got to go. Gun or no gun, there won't be a shooting if this guy's mind isn't twisted enough to do it.
But I agree with Skoorb on this one. What guns bring to the table are the magnitude of harm. The initial trigger for the crime though, is the person. Personally, I know it's impossible to completely eliminate all nuts in society, so I'd definitely like to reduce the magnitude of the harm they can do.
-GL
Having had lowlife scum gang bangers in my high school I know for a fact too that the gun (not plural...notice) they had was a modified air gun and it probably was a complete fake. Their weapons of choice were sharp objects - knife, ninja star.
The only criminals up here in Canada that seem to have _real_ guns (i.e. not model ones, not air guns, etc) are hardcore criminals that would not target a random individual anyway - i.e. organized crime.
I would buy the argument that American gun advocates push: "if we ban guns then only criminals would have them" if it weren't for the fact that given an incident where a criminal decides to attack you, chances are their biggest advantage won't be a weapon but the element of surprise - in which case the benefit of carrying a sidearm is questionable.
But as far as shootings such as these go, the real issue has to do with mental illness. Given the fact that mental illness is such a terrible disease, the state needs to be able to 1) identify potential victims of mental illness and 2) treat these people (forceably if they have to). Additionally, the stigma attached to mental illnesses has got to go. Gun or no gun, there won't be a shooting if this guy's mind isn't twisted enough to do it.
But I agree with Skoorb on this one. What guns bring to the table are the magnitude of harm. The initial trigger for the crime though, is the person. Personally, I know it's impossible to completely eliminate all nuts in society, so I'd definitely like to reduce the magnitude of the harm they can do.
-GL
Still think we don't need to restrict guns, check this out
April 20, 1999
Littleton, Colorado
In America's worst instance of school violence yet, two teen-agers, Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris, open fire on classmates and teachers in their suburban Denver school, killing 15 people including themselves.
May 20, 1999
Conyers, Georgia
At Heritage High School, 15-year-old sophomore T.J. Solomon opened fire wounding six classmates. On October 2, 2000, he pleaded guilty and guilty but mentally ill to all 29 charges against him and on November 9, 2000 Solomon was sentenced to 40 years in prison. He must serve 18 years before he can be considered for parole.
July 4, 1999
Illinois & Indiana
During a weekend shooting spree, white supremacist Benjamin Smith, 21, targeted minorities and Jews in Indiana and Illinois where two people were killed and nine others wounded. As police closed in, Smith took his own life.
July 29, 1999
Atlanta
Mark Barton bludgeoned his wife and children to death in the suburb of Acworth then followed those murders with an Atlanta shooting spree at two day-trading brokerage firms that left nine dead and 13 wounded before killing himself.
August 5, 1999
Pelham, Alabama
Alan Eugene Miller shot two co-workers to death at Ferguson Enterprises, a heating and air conditioning company where he drove a delivery truck. He later drove five miles to Post Airgas Co., where he previously worked, and killed a third person. The following summer, Miller was convicted of capital murder and sentenced to death.
August 10, 1999
Los Angeles
Buford Furrow, a self-described white separatist who once feared he "could just lose it and kill people," allegedly attacked a Jewish community center, wounding five people, and later shot to death a Philippines-born postal worker. He is charged with capital murder and is awaiting trial.
September 15, 1999
Fort Worth, Texas
While teens prayed and sang at a Baptist youth rally, Larry Ashbrook allegedly emerged from a hallway at Wedgwood Baptist Church, shouted expletive-laced, anti-religious slogans and began randomly firing at worshippers in their pews. Seven were killed and seven wounded before Ashbrook took his own life.
November 2, 1999
Honolulu
Byran Uyesugi, a Xerox Corp. repairman, was found guilty on June 14, 2000 of gunning down seven of his co-workers at a company warehouse on Nimitz Highway. On August 8, 2000 he was sentenced to life without the possibility of parole.
November 3, 1999
Seattle
Kevin Cruz faces murder charges for allegedly opening fire at the Northlake Shipyard in downtown Seattle, killing two men and wounding two others. The suspect, reportedly a former employee angry over terminated disability benefits, was arrested two months later after a backpack containing a gun was discovered near the shooting scene.
December 30, 1999
Tampa, Florida
A hotel employee opened fire at his workplace just west of downtown Tampa, killing four co-workers, then killing another person in an attempted carjacking nearby, police said. The suspect, Silvio Izquierdo-Leyva -- a Cuban immigrant who began working at the Radisson Bay Harbor Hotel in late November - faces 20 counts and is awaiting trial.
MARCH 1, 2000
Wilkinsburg, Pennsylvania
Ronald Taylor allegedly went on a shooting rampage at his apartment and two fast food restaurants, killing three men and critically wounding two others. He surrendered after a standoff at an office building. Police later found anti-white and anti-Jewish writings in the apartment of Taylor, who is African-American. All the shooting victims were white.
In April a judge ruled that Taylor was incompetent to stand trial and ordered him to be placed in a state hospital for treatment of paranoid schizophrenia. In August Taylor was ordered to stand trial as long as he keeps taking his medication.
MARCH 8, 2000
Memphis, Tennessee
Firefighter Frederick Williams was charged with four counts of first-degree murder, one count of aggrevated arson, and one count of attempted murder after a shooting following a fire at his home. Police say Williams, who had been on leave from the fire department because of emotional problems, killed his wife inside his home before setting the house on fire. Two firefighters and a sheriff's deputy were shot and killed when they arrived on the scene. A female bystander was wounded, and Williams himself was wounded by police.
December 26, 2000
Wakefield, Massachusetts
Michael McDermott, 42, is suspected of killing seven co-workers at an Internet consulting firm near Boston. McDermott was arrested shortly after the mass shooting at Edgewater Technology Inc. At his arrest, McDermott was armed with an AK-47 assault rifle, a shotgun and a semiautomatic handgun.
And this is just in the last 1 year and a half. Now you can add what happened in Chicago today to this list. This is just the mass killings, think about all the other killings that are not mass killings. We need to get rid of all these guns, period.
April 20, 1999
Littleton, Colorado
In America's worst instance of school violence yet, two teen-agers, Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris, open fire on classmates and teachers in their suburban Denver school, killing 15 people including themselves.
May 20, 1999
Conyers, Georgia
At Heritage High School, 15-year-old sophomore T.J. Solomon opened fire wounding six classmates. On October 2, 2000, he pleaded guilty and guilty but mentally ill to all 29 charges against him and on November 9, 2000 Solomon was sentenced to 40 years in prison. He must serve 18 years before he can be considered for parole.
July 4, 1999
Illinois & Indiana
During a weekend shooting spree, white supremacist Benjamin Smith, 21, targeted minorities and Jews in Indiana and Illinois where two people were killed and nine others wounded. As police closed in, Smith took his own life.
July 29, 1999
Atlanta
Mark Barton bludgeoned his wife and children to death in the suburb of Acworth then followed those murders with an Atlanta shooting spree at two day-trading brokerage firms that left nine dead and 13 wounded before killing himself.
August 5, 1999
Pelham, Alabama
Alan Eugene Miller shot two co-workers to death at Ferguson Enterprises, a heating and air conditioning company where he drove a delivery truck. He later drove five miles to Post Airgas Co., where he previously worked, and killed a third person. The following summer, Miller was convicted of capital murder and sentenced to death.
August 10, 1999
Los Angeles
Buford Furrow, a self-described white separatist who once feared he "could just lose it and kill people," allegedly attacked a Jewish community center, wounding five people, and later shot to death a Philippines-born postal worker. He is charged with capital murder and is awaiting trial.
September 15, 1999
Fort Worth, Texas
While teens prayed and sang at a Baptist youth rally, Larry Ashbrook allegedly emerged from a hallway at Wedgwood Baptist Church, shouted expletive-laced, anti-religious slogans and began randomly firing at worshippers in their pews. Seven were killed and seven wounded before Ashbrook took his own life.
November 2, 1999
Honolulu
Byran Uyesugi, a Xerox Corp. repairman, was found guilty on June 14, 2000 of gunning down seven of his co-workers at a company warehouse on Nimitz Highway. On August 8, 2000 he was sentenced to life without the possibility of parole.
November 3, 1999
Seattle
Kevin Cruz faces murder charges for allegedly opening fire at the Northlake Shipyard in downtown Seattle, killing two men and wounding two others. The suspect, reportedly a former employee angry over terminated disability benefits, was arrested two months later after a backpack containing a gun was discovered near the shooting scene.
December 30, 1999
Tampa, Florida
A hotel employee opened fire at his workplace just west of downtown Tampa, killing four co-workers, then killing another person in an attempted carjacking nearby, police said. The suspect, Silvio Izquierdo-Leyva -- a Cuban immigrant who began working at the Radisson Bay Harbor Hotel in late November - faces 20 counts and is awaiting trial.
MARCH 1, 2000
Wilkinsburg, Pennsylvania
Ronald Taylor allegedly went on a shooting rampage at his apartment and two fast food restaurants, killing three men and critically wounding two others. He surrendered after a standoff at an office building. Police later found anti-white and anti-Jewish writings in the apartment of Taylor, who is African-American. All the shooting victims were white.
In April a judge ruled that Taylor was incompetent to stand trial and ordered him to be placed in a state hospital for treatment of paranoid schizophrenia. In August Taylor was ordered to stand trial as long as he keeps taking his medication.
MARCH 8, 2000
Memphis, Tennessee
Firefighter Frederick Williams was charged with four counts of first-degree murder, one count of aggrevated arson, and one count of attempted murder after a shooting following a fire at his home. Police say Williams, who had been on leave from the fire department because of emotional problems, killed his wife inside his home before setting the house on fire. Two firefighters and a sheriff's deputy were shot and killed when they arrived on the scene. A female bystander was wounded, and Williams himself was wounded by police.
December 26, 2000
Wakefield, Massachusetts
Michael McDermott, 42, is suspected of killing seven co-workers at an Internet consulting firm near Boston. McDermott was arrested shortly after the mass shooting at Edgewater Technology Inc. At his arrest, McDermott was armed with an AK-47 assault rifle, a shotgun and a semiautomatic handgun.
And this is just in the last 1 year and a half. Now you can add what happened in Chicago today to this list. This is just the mass killings, think about all the other killings that are not mass killings. We need to get rid of all these guns, period.
veryape: Our right to bear arms has nothing to do with protecting ourselves from other individuals. It is a right to an armed militia of citizens to ward off enemies both foreign and domestic. It is not that far of a reach to think that our government could become so oppressive that its citizens would have no choice but to rebel against it. I mean just look at what happened at the Super Bowl, if that doesnt bother you people then I need to find a new country.
StageLeft
No Lifer
- Sep 29, 2000
- 70,150
- 5
- 0
It is not that far of a reach to think that our government could become so oppressive that its citizens would have no choice but to rebel against it. Really? I know that in the last century the people of the US had a real reason to fear this, but now? I know that I have no fear whatsoever that Prime minister chretien is going to grab the Canadian military and take us over. I mean really, I'd laugh if I saw it happen because it never will. Many people in the US seem to fear this but you people really have no reason to do it. You're not living in Yugoslavia afterall. Its so stuck into your culture [that freedom is of utmost importance] that if the president for some reason told the military to take over all of the towns it wouldn't be long before everybody in the army was questioning what they're being told to do.
Heh, the canadian military, well you its not hard to protect yourself from a couple of guys riding on a moose throwing snowballs. 
Warcleric- Don't make fun! That's a viscious moose. It bit my sister once!
Not nearly as viscious as the llamas though!
Not nearly as viscious as the llamas though!
It doesn't matter if guns are legal or not. Drugs are illegal, who doesn't have access to drugs? Stupid, liberal, BS ideas like yours disgust me.
Tzen
Tzen
Well, we've got at least 250 elite troops known as the JTF2s.
Not so funny actually...check them out!
JTF2s
They will be deployed around Quebec City for the Summit of Americas conference although this won't be made public because the JTF2 unit is not supposed to exist.
back to this issue
You can call me a stupid "liberal" if you'd like. Someone back there did so (not to me specifically) on the merits that it won't stop the crimes from happening. He's right, but fails to see that the point is not to stop the crimes, but to reduce the harm done by the individuals in these crimes. As I said, if you want to get to the brunt of the issue, well these criminals are nutcases and have to be treated for their mental illnesses.
-GL
Not so funny actually...check them out!
JTF2s
They will be deployed around Quebec City for the Summit of Americas conference although this won't be made public because the JTF2 unit is not supposed to exist.
back to this issue
You can call me a stupid "liberal" if you'd like. Someone back there did so (not to me specifically) on the merits that it won't stop the crimes from happening. He's right, but fails to see that the point is not to stop the crimes, but to reduce the harm done by the individuals in these crimes. As I said, if you want to get to the brunt of the issue, well these criminals are nutcases and have to be treated for their mental illnesses.
-GL
When children kill children its obvious that guns aren't the problem. Morals, better parenting, etc. Thats what will change society. I don't care how many different crimes are committed with guns its still lack of morals and respect for life. When parents kill don't you think children will? They follow the example we set. :|
The point to that is if the kids didn't have guns, it wouldn't be so easy for them to kill others.
We need to attack the problem from both ends. Get rid of the desire, and get rid of the means.
We need to attack the problem from both ends. Get rid of the desire, and get rid of the means.
<< and get rid of the means >>
How do you suggest doing that? Door to door searches for illegal firearms? If you want to live in a police state, go ahead and move somewhere else, and leave me behind.
Of course, the easiest way is to keep illegal firearms out and have stringent requirements to buy handguns and rifles. I don't think waiting periods are a bad idea.
Oh yeah, and get rid of any type of assault rifles. They're weapons of mass killing.
Oh yeah, and get rid of any type of assault rifles. They're weapons of mass killing.
BDawg,
If I remember correctly, a long time ago Russ pointed out that the term "assault rifle" is a media creation. Pretty much all rifles can penetrate body armor and such - the general idea that the media puts behind assault rifle capabilities. I'd agree that some of these more high powered weapons need to be kept out of civilian hands but let's get our facts straight about which ones
-GL
If I remember correctly, a long time ago Russ pointed out that the term "assault rifle" is a media creation. Pretty much all rifles can penetrate body armor and such - the general idea that the media puts behind assault rifle capabilities. I'd agree that some of these more high powered weapons need to be kept out of civilian hands but let's get our facts straight about which ones
-GL
Yeah, it isn't an exact term, but most people know what it means.
A long rifle that uses large caliber rounds which is not designed for hunting. Generally semi-automatic with large magazines.
A long rifle that uses large caliber rounds which is not designed for hunting. Generally semi-automatic with large magazines.
Getting rid of weapons won't help matters. Did you hear of the boy that killed the young girl by immitating wrestling moves? Well thats what he said anyway, but I still don't believe that BS. Do you know how many kids brought knives to school last year? A lot. I guess the only person who can own a knife in a few years will be Betty Crocker, but only if she has a license. I'm not trying to make fun of the subject, but its not the guns that are doing this. People don't feel remourseful anymore, if fact, a lot of people don't give a crap about themselves much less anything else. How do we fix this problem? First thing, is to get parents off their lazy arse and make them get involved in their kids lives, and know whats going on. And no, not all parents are to blame because some are wonderful, but their kids still turn out bad. Do you know how many latch-key kids there are? To many. Do you know how many parents don't know their kids friends? To many. When I was growing up (I'm only 26) my mom knew all my friends, and their parents. If I did something wrong you better believe my parents found out. I got punished too.
Currently, teachers can't exercise any control in the classroom. Kids can make fun of the teacher and students, and only have to go to the office for a brief talk. Do you realize my husbands x-wife is like this with their child? And she wants to know why he doesn't respect her. We've told her time in time again, he doesn't act like this at our home, and she's like "yes he does." No he doesn't because he knows he will be punished. He's a totally different and well behaved child when he's with us (at Cub Scouts, swimming, etc.) He's a pain for the teachers, and everyone's solution (except the teacher {thank God} and his father) is to drug him. Please, everyone knows the child isn't ADD. In fact, the counselor said behavior modification and punishment will change his behavior but both parents have to work together. Then he said or we can give him Ritalin. We have tried and tried, but she won't do anything. He's not on the drug and won't be either. He doesn't need it. People want to know why their kids disprespect them, this is a good example. I wonder how many other separated families have the same BS going on? With the divorce rate at 50% and immature parents...wonder who the problem is? I bet its not GUNS.
Currently, teachers can't exercise any control in the classroom. Kids can make fun of the teacher and students, and only have to go to the office for a brief talk. Do you realize my husbands x-wife is like this with their child? And she wants to know why he doesn't respect her. We've told her time in time again, he doesn't act like this at our home, and she's like "yes he does." No he doesn't because he knows he will be punished. He's a totally different and well behaved child when he's with us (at Cub Scouts, swimming, etc.) He's a pain for the teachers, and everyone's solution (except the teacher {thank God} and his father) is to drug him. Please, everyone knows the child isn't ADD. In fact, the counselor said behavior modification and punishment will change his behavior but both parents have to work together. Then he said or we can give him Ritalin. We have tried and tried, but she won't do anything. He's not on the drug and won't be either. He doesn't need it. People want to know why their kids disprespect them, this is a good example. I wonder how many other separated families have the same BS going on? With the divorce rate at 50% and immature parents...wonder who the problem is? I bet its not GUNS.
TRENDING THREADS
-
Discussion Zen 5 Speculation (EPYC Turin and Strix Point/Granite Ridge - Ryzen 9000)- Started by DisEnchantment
- Replies: 25K
-
Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes + WCL Discussion Threads
- Started by Tigerick
- Replies: 23K
-
Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread- Started by TheF34RChannel
- Replies: 23K
-
-
Facebook
Twitter