Shimmering - ATi vs nVidia

[Qbah]

Browsing through Rage3D forums, I came across this topic:

Link to Rage3D forums

The poster did an excellent job documenting the whole shimmering issue, presented two clips of the same game, one on ATI and one on Nvidia hardware. The ATI movie had 6xAA and the nV one had 8xS. The difference in IQ is so incredible, I have no idea how can it be considered equal... Yet none of the review sites mention things like that (mind you, this is not the only game that shows this).

A big thanks for cvearl (the poster) for his effort in creating the movies and allowing others to see them and compare by themselves.

One more thing, you need FRAPS to see the movies (as it uses its own codec).

 

[Matt2]

I dont trust anything anyone posts about shimmering.

I have owned both GeForce 7-Series and ATI X800 and X1900 series cards.

Setting the LOD to clamp and using high quality effectively eliminates the shimmering and brings it to almost par with ATI.

There are ways to fix the shimmering, so I suggest everyone takes posts like this one with a grain of salt.

 

[Pantalaimon]

Originally posted by: Matt2
I dont trust anything anyone posts about shimmering.

I have owned both GeForce 7-Series and ATI X800 and X1900 series cards.

Setting the LOD to clamp and using high quality effectively eliminates the shimmering and brings it to almost par with ATI.

There are ways to fix the shimmering, so I suggest everyone takes posts like this one with a grain of salt.

The problem with that argument is that the user has to be tech savy to know about how to get rid of the problem. An ordinary user who just want to pop the card in and play games would not even know what an LOD to clamp is and where to set it, and he would just accept shimmering as a standard. Maybe I'm crazy, but I believe that manufacturers should try to improve the quality of their products as we move forward to new product generations, not backwards.

 

[moonboy403]

Originally posted by: Pantalaimon

Originally posted by: Matt2
I dont trust anything anyone posts about shimmering.

I have owned both GeForce 7-Series and ATI X800 and X1900 series cards.

Setting the LOD to clamp and using high quality effectively eliminates the shimmering and brings it to almost par with ATI.

There are ways to fix the shimmering, so I suggest everyone takes posts like this one with a grain of salt.

The problem with that argument is that the user has to be tech savy to know about how to get rid of the problem. An ordinary user who just want to pop the card in and play games would not even know what an LOD to clamp is and where to set it, and he would just accept shimmering as a standard. Maybe I'm crazy, but I believe that manufacturers should try to improve the quality of their products as we move forward to new product generations, not backwards.

it's true that the average joe might not know what to do...but come on, this is anandtech! The people who visit here have a considerable amount of knowledge

 

[Ackmed]

Originally posted by: Matt2
I dont trust anything anyone posts about shimmering.

I have owned both GeForce 7-Series and ATI X800 and X1900 series cards.

Setting the LOD to clamp and using high quality effectively eliminates the shimmering and brings it to almost par with ATI.

There are ways to fix the shimmering, so I suggest everyone takes posts like this one with a grain of salt.

Yes, doing those two things reduces shimmering a lot. I can still tell a rather large difference between ATi and NV no matter what settings. However, allegedly most people run at default settings, and most reviews use default settings. NV can take a rather large performance decrease by going to HQ. Having reviews set at Q for better numbers, then claiming that using HQ can reduce the shimmers, isnt going to cut it. You cant have it both ways.

Also, you cant "fix" shimmering, only reduce it (by a lot).

 

[TheRyuu]

Text

That is still the best source about nvidia's "optimizations" and shimmering still that I can find. I think it is more "in detail" then the poster at rage3d.

 

[Qbah]

Well, the post on Rage3D forums clearly shows the issue (at least for me). Both cards are set to their maximum quality (HQ, AA, AF settings, LOD clamp). And the difference is extremely obvious. And it is shown in a real thing (a game), not some fancy testing video.

 

[Matt2]

Well to each his own is what I say.

If someone doesnt know how to reduce set the LOD to clamp, then they probably wont give a damn about texture shimmering because they probably wont notice any difference.

Ackmed- Yes i know, it cannot be "fixed" that's why I said "effectively eliminates" because when you're playing a fast paced shooter, texture shimmering at default is very noticable. Setting the LOD to clamp reduces it enough to where it's there, but not noticable compared to how bad it was before the fix.

ATI cards shimmer as well. While its no where near as bad, it's notciable in certain situations. With all settings maxed, HQ AF, I get shimmering in FEAR with my X1900XTX. If I stand next to a wall and move forward alongside it, the wall tends to "crawl". There was a thread a while ago by another AT member who complained about the same situation.

 

[Ackmed]

Yes, you did say that first, then you said "fixed". It cant be fixed. Not even close to effectively elimiates" to me. The videos in this post, show a drastic difference. And thats with clamp and HQ on. I dont understand why you want to take them with a grain of salt, its a pretty stark difference to me.

I agree, and I too see shimmering on my ATi cards. And I know what you're talking about in Fear. And it is annoyig. Its just not nearly as bad as NVs cards. Its really as simple as that. Hopefully both get even better at it.

 

[Matt2]

I say take it with a grain of salt, because sitting here and analyzing someone else's video, on someone else's machine, on a game I've never played nor intend to play is a lot different than your own personal gaming experience.

When I had my 7800GTs, the shimmering was so bad at first, I couldnt stand it. Especially in CSS. After setting the LOD to clamp (personally I believe this reduces the shimmer far more than Q vs HQ), the shimmering was reduced so much that to my eyes, it wasn't there or barely there and everything was gravy from there.

On the other hand, when I got my X1900XTX, after reading the millions of pointless threads about how much ATI was better than Nvidia, what did I see? Ding ding ding, shimmering! HQ and HQ AF on ATI isnt supposed to shimmer!

My point is that it's all relative to whoever is sitting there in front of the screen using the card.

 

[josh6079]

Originally posted by: Matt2
I say take it with a grain of salt, because sitting here and analyzing someone else's video, on someone else's machine, on a game I've never played nor intend to play is a lot different than your own personal gaming experience.

When I had my 7800GTs, the shimmering was so bad at first, I couldnt stand it. Especially in CSS. After setting the LOD to clamp (personally I believe this reduces the shimmer far more than Q vs HQ), the shimmering was reduced so much that to my eyes, it wasn't there or barely there and everything was gravy from there.

On the other hand, when I got my X1900XTX, after reading the millions of pointless threads about how much ATI was better than Nvidia, what did I see? Ding ding ding, shimmering! HQ and HQ AF on ATI isnt supposed to shimmer!

My point is that it's all relative to whoever is sitting there in front of the screen using the card.

QFT. Nvidia may do it worse, but with tweaking--which I've had to do with both ATI and Nvidia depending on what I'm wanting to have work--the shimmering issue isn't that big of a deal. Yes, ATI can doesn't have as bad as a problem with it as Nvidia, but they're both still there.

 

[40sTheme]

Dude, you guys are too picky about this sort of stuff. Games like FEAR, Oblivion, and the rest of their ilk look fine to me on max to near max graphics. I think everyone just freaks out a little too much. You know it's not something of too much importance when you're playing FEAR and you have to intently look at the wall to notice it. No offense to anyone, it's just that discussions like this are ultimately unimportant because the games look great anyays.

 

[Ackmed]

Every review you see is on another computer, do you take those with a grain of salt? While I agree that we shouldnt believe everything from anyone, his finding are on point with others. FS's videos of BF2 shimmering, has just a big of a difference. As well as others.

You should try the game out, its pretty fun. A little short, and console'ish with the graphics and controls, but still very fun. Its cheap now too.

Whoever told you that shimmering doesnt happen on ATi cards didnt know what they were talking about, or you took what they said wrong. Both shimmer, NV just happens to shimmer worse.

 

[josh6079]

Originally posted by: Ackmed
Every review you see is on another computer, do you take those with a grain of salt?

Yes.

Dude, you guys are too picky about this sort of stuff. Games like FEAR, Oblivion, and the rest of their ilk look fine to me on max to near max graphics. I think everyone just freaks out a little too much. You know it's not something of too much importance when you're playing FEAR and you have to intently look at the wall to notice it. No offense to anyone, it's just that discussions like this are ultimately unimportant because the games look great anyays.

Shimmering doesn't have to be on a minute wall. Sometimes it can be a very bad distraction when running around on ground that looks like it is in between T.V. stations or something.

Some people are not bothered by AF shimmering. Some are more displaced by the kind of shimmering that AA modes can produce. Some people can't tell the difference between AA and no AA without being told what to look for. It just depends on the type of gamer you are and talking about something that does widely happen is okay since everyone can or can't be annoyed by it.

 

[40sTheme]

I see your point. I guess I just don't really care because I don't really notice it, even if I look hard. Even though I only have a Radeon X600. I don't notice it on my friends SLI rig either (2x 7900GT), but he seems to. He's a freak... the game looks 3 times as good as it does on my comp, and he complains about something entirely miniscule. That's the only time it bothers me. When the shimmering isn't bad enough to matter, and people make it matter. If it's bad though, I would definitely complain, too.

 

[Cookie Monster]

I thought the way of getting shimmering reduced is by disabling ani minmap opt and putting texture clamp to clamp. No need for HQ etc.
Has anyone tried this?

Im sure that you DONT have to disable ALL the opts and enable HQ to get rid of shimmering.

 

[Ackmed]

Yes, you do. And even then, you dont get "rid of" shimmering. As you can see in the videos, with HQ on, its still much worse on NV cards.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Originally posted by: Ackmed
Yes, you do. And even then, you dont get "rid of" shimmering. As you can see in the videos, with HQ on, its still much worse on NV cards.

I want some proof.

Can someone try, a combination of things e.g disabling ani minmap opt with Texture Clamp on Clamp, or HQ with texture clamp on Clamp or disabling trilinear opt with HQ enabled etc.

I dont really think its necessary to turn off ALL the opts and enable HQ. Unless im proven wrong.

Of course you cant 100% get rid of shimmering. But im talking to a level where it becomes hardly noticeable.

 

[lopri]

Thank goodness for that video. Up to this date (like 5 mins ago) I didn't know what the heck "shimmering" was, even after I got an X1950XTX. While back I thought it was 'moire' effect but someone corrected me it doesn't equal to moire, so I was left in dark clueless about shimmering and thought people were crazy. One question, though: Isn't shimmering supposed to be visible only in motion? I don't think the texture quality in still image between the two videos is the same. It looks as if the NV video is highly compressed with a lossy method. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Zstream]

You argue over and over again without owning a video card?

 

[ronnn]

Where is the g80? In 3 weeks, everyone will admit the shimmering was an issue, but g80 solved all.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Originally posted by: Zstream
You argue over and over again without owning a video card?

Was this directed at me?

If it was direct at me, I actually have quite a few Video cards. Such as the GF4 MX 440, Geforce FX5700, and the Radeon 9700pro (sold it a long time ago). If you dont believe me i could always show you the pics of my comp if i could find my digi cam.

I havent upgraded yet because im planning to make a full upgrade during the launch of Vista.

I dont play much games anyway but QW ET is one game i plan on playing.

Im not arguing. Im asking. Asking for people who have these top of the line hardware to show which opts reduce shimmering. I find it unneccessary (logically) to disable all the opts just to reduce shimmering.

 

[Cookie Monster]

I hope G80 will use angle indepedent AF as a default setting.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: lopri
Thank goodness for that video. Up to this date (like 5 mins ago) I didn't know what the heck "shimmering" was, even after I got an X1950XTX. While back I thought it was 'moire' effect but someone corrected me it doesn't equal to moire, so I was left in dark clueless about shimmering and thought people were crazy. One question, though: Isn't shimmering supposed to be visible only in motion? I don't think the texture quality in still image between the two videos is the same. It looks as if the NV video is highly compressed with a lossy method. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I've always called shimmering "AA/AF drop off" because that's what it looks like. Cheating part of image to game the stats at review sites.

 

[Gstanfor]

Originally posted by: ChrisRay
Cvearl. That Nvidia video. I finally took a moment to look at it. What demo is it? I'd like to have a look at it. What you have illustrated in the Nvidia video is not an anistropic optimisation. I am willing to bet its either doing straight bilinear filtering or point sampling. I'd like to get to the bottom of that because I have my doubts it has anything to do with anisotropic filtering optimisations but rather a filtering bug present in the software. Nvidia's AF opts would produce visible banding on mip map filters. However I see no clear mip mapping going on at all in that screenshot. Of course I cant really know until I know what software is being tested though. I thought it mighta been Call of Juarez. But my demo didnt look anything like that game and certainly did not exhibit lack of filtering to that level.

If I could at least test it. I could least determine exactly what is going on to cause that level of underfiltering. I havent seen filtering like that in ages. Please reply back and let me know. If anything I can show this to the right people and see if it can be fixed.

That's all I need to know even without looking at the videos myself. If ChrisRay thinks there is a rendering problem, there most likely is. Those of you who don't know who ChrisRay is and why his opinion would matter, don't bother replying until you find out...