Shepard Smith from Fox just earned my respect

[Hayabusa Rider]

Stand up for what's right.

No one is ever elevated by embracing evil, it merely justifies that which we say we are against.

Good man.

 

[Turin39789]

And the talking points just keep on rolling over the top of him.

 

[Fear No Evil]

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Stand up for what's right.

No one is ever elevated by embracing evil, it merely justifies that which we say we are against.

Good man.

Yeah, I wonder if his family was being held hostage if he would change his mind. Taking the moral high ground is easy when your life isn't on the line. I doubt he would say 'This is America - We don't torture' if that meant his wife and children would likely be killed.

But whatever, This is America and we are entitled to differing opinions.. and one of those is that torture is acceptable in certain cases.. I am one that falls under that belief that the President can and should use torture when American lives are at risk and if he believes it will succeed in saving them.

I'm sure I will be labeled for that.. but I don't care.. its my belief. I'd rather be alive and tainted than dead holding the moral high ground.

 

[Turin39789]

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Stand up for what's right.

No one is ever elevated by embracing evil, it merely justifies that which we say we are against.

Good man.

Yeah, I wonder if his family was being held hostage if he would change his mind. Taking the moral high ground is easy when your life isn't on the line. I doubt he would say 'This is America - We don't torture' if that meant his wife and children would likely be killed.

But whatever, This is America and we are entitled to differing opinions.. and one of those is that torture is acceptable in certain cases.. I am one that falls under that belief that the President can and should use torture when American lives are at risk and if he believes it will succeed in saving them.

I'm sure I will be labeled for that.. but I don't care.. its my belief. I'd rather be alive and tainted than dead holding the moral high ground.

If we allow anything in defense of America, perhaps we should look to Africa.

"Soldiers" there have found gang rape to be an effective war tactic for deterring resistance from a population.

It works, so use it?

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Stand up for what's right.

No one is ever elevated by embracing evil, it merely justifies that which we say we are against.

Good man.

Yeah, I wonder if his family was being held hostage if he would change his mind. Taking the moral high ground is easy when your life isn't on the line. I doubt he would say 'This is America - We don't torture' if that meant his wife and children would likely be killed.

But whatever, This is America and we are entitled to differing opinions.. and one of those is that torture is acceptable in certain cases.. I am one that falls under that belief that the President can and should use torture when American lives are at risk and if he believes it will succeed in saving them.

I'm sure I will be labeled for that.. but I don't care.. its my belief. I'd rather be alive and tainted than dead holding the moral high ground.

The problem is that the low ground seems to be more of the norm. Consider that after the interrogators were convinced that they had learned all they could some CIA operatives insisted they continue to hammer away at one individual. I'm sure most people could make a construct where they would advocate harsh treatment, but approaching it as any other "tool" isn't right. We shouldn't be torturing as a fishing expedition.

 

[Robor]

Kudos Shep!

 

[retrospooty]

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Stand up for what's right.

No one is ever elevated by embracing evil, it merely justifies that which we say we are against.

Good man.

Yeah, I wonder if his family was being held hostage if he would change his mind. Taking the moral high ground is easy when your life isn't on the line. I doubt he would say 'This is America - We don't torture' if that meant his wife and children would likely be killed.

But whatever, This is America and we are entitled to differing opinions.. and one of those is that torture is acceptable in certain cases.. I am one that falls under that belief that the President can and should use torture when American lives are at risk and if he believes it will succeed in saving them.

I'm sure I will be labeled for that.. but I don't care.. its my belief. I'd rather be alive and tainted than dead holding the moral high ground.

Your entitled to that opionion... I personally believe that you are a coward and "Fear evil" way too much.

The second we torture the "bad guys" even if its to gain valuable info - we ourselves just became the "bad guys".

 

[evident]

i love how the super religious 'christian' right wing still defends torture. guess they only like being christian when they can condemn people to hell for being gay

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Originally posted by: evident
i love how the super religious 'christian' right wing still defends torture. guess they only like being christian when they can condemn people to hell for being gay

Links? Or are you just spewing crap?

 

[dphantom]

Originally posted by: evident
i love how the super religious 'christian' right wing still defends torture. guess they only like being christian when they can condemn people to hell for being gay

Wow, I hope you didn't sprain your brain with that one. Nice set of ASSumptions you make there none of which on point.

 

[Fear No Evil]

Originally posted by: Turin39789

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Stand up for what's right.

No one is ever elevated by embracing evil, it merely justifies that which we say we are against.

Good man.

Yeah, I wonder if his family was being held hostage if he would change his mind. Taking the moral high ground is easy when your life isn't on the line. I doubt he would say 'This is America - We don't torture' if that meant his wife and children would likely be killed.

But whatever, This is America and we are entitled to differing opinions.. and one of those is that torture is acceptable in certain cases.. I am one that falls under that belief that the President can and should use torture when American lives are at risk and if he believes it will succeed in saving them.

I'm sure I will be labeled for that.. but I don't care.. its my belief. I'd rather be alive and tainted than dead holding the moral high ground.

If we allow anything in defense of America, perhaps we should look to Africa.

"Soldiers" there have found gang rape to be an effective war tactic for deterring resistance from a population.

It works, so use it?

Considering 'deterring resistance from a population' is not my stated goal of 'Saving American Lives'.. No, I would not use it.. it not moral in that case.

I know your next question is going to be what if gang raping someone would save American lives.. Then my answer would be 'probably not'. I believe there would be a better method to accomplish this task than gang raping.. so I would say no to it in 99.9999 percent of the cases. But if someone plants a nuke in manhattan and has it hidden, and other methods were used to try to get the information out of them and failed.. and we know this person had some great fear of gang rape, and there was no other option to save 10 million New Yorkers, I would say use it if the President believes it will save American lives. That type of scenario is unlikely though, and I would not support that form of torture unless it were an extremely good reason.. saving 10 million Americans lives would fit that. Preventing a roadside bomb from going off would not. Its all a matter of what the risk and reward is.

This world isn't black and white. Sometimes evil things need to be done to save innocent people. War after all is just murder justified. Of course murder is bad, yet we do it nearly every day in the name of protecting this country. The best you can hope for is that the people in charge are only taking these actions when absolutely necessary.

 

[Fear No Evil]

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Stand up for what's right.

No one is ever elevated by embracing evil, it merely justifies that which we say we are against.

Good man.

Yeah, I wonder if his family was being held hostage if he would change his mind. Taking the moral high ground is easy when your life isn't on the line. I doubt he would say 'This is America - We don't torture' if that meant his wife and children would likely be killed.

But whatever, This is America and we are entitled to differing opinions.. and one of those is that torture is acceptable in certain cases.. I am one that falls under that belief that the President can and should use torture when American lives are at risk and if he believes it will succeed in saving them.

I'm sure I will be labeled for that.. but I don't care.. its my belief. I'd rather be alive and tainted than dead holding the moral high ground.

The problem is that the low ground seems to be more of the norm. Consider that after the interrogators were convinced that they had learned all they could some CIA operatives insisted they continue to hammer away at one individual. I'm sure most people could make a construct where they would advocate harsh treatment, but approaching it as any other "tool" isn't right. We shouldn't be torturing as a fishing expedition.

THAT I can agree with. However to say 'Torture is wrong, we shouldn't do it' is just not acceptable to me. It shouldn't be used to get someone to admit to shoplifting.. but it SHOULD be used to save NYC from being nuked.. Everyone wants to be so black and white here.. its not black and white..

 

[Fear No Evil]

Originally posted by: retrospooty

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Stand up for what's right.

No one is ever elevated by embracing evil, it merely justifies that which we say we are against.

Good man.

Yeah, I wonder if his family was being held hostage if he would change his mind. Taking the moral high ground is easy when your life isn't on the line. I doubt he would say 'This is America - We don't torture' if that meant his wife and children would likely be killed.

But whatever, This is America and we are entitled to differing opinions.. and one of those is that torture is acceptable in certain cases.. I am one that falls under that belief that the President can and should use torture when American lives are at risk and if he believes it will succeed in saving them.

I'm sure I will be labeled for that.. but I don't care.. its my belief. I'd rather be alive and tainted than dead holding the moral high ground.

Your entitled to that opionion... I personally believe that you are a coward and "Fear evil" way too much.

The second we torture the "bad guys" even if its to gain valuable info - we ourselves just became the "bad guys".

I disagree.. Maybe you can honestly say you would prefer to be dead than to have the terrorists holding you and your family tortured.. I would not.. I would prefer they be tortured and my life saved. Maybe that makes me a coward.. I guess I can LIVE with that.

 

[trooper11]

he makes a great point here


i just hope we dont suffer because of the choices we make in regards to this. not that im for torture, but there is alot of information out there about what is torture and what is not and people heavily debate the validity of various sources. its a question that will linger for a long time. heck, you could say almost any interrogation method goes against the ideals of this country.


but im certainly all for avoiding situations that go against the spirit of our country, its obviously hard to define just what we should and shouldnt do to defend ourselves.

 

[JSFLY]

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Stand up for what's right.

No one is ever elevated by embracing evil, it merely justifies that which we say we are against.

Good man.

Yeah, I wonder if his family was being held hostage if he would change his mind. Taking the moral high ground is easy when your life isn't on the line. I doubt he would say 'This is America - We don't torture' if that meant his wife and children would likely be killed.

But whatever, This is America and we are entitled to differing opinions.. and one of those is that torture is acceptable in certain cases.. I am one that falls under that belief that the President can and should use torture when American lives are at risk and if he believes it will succeed in saving them.

I'm sure I will be labeled for that.. but I don't care.. its my belief. I'd rather be alive and tainted than dead holding the moral high ground.

The problem is that the low ground seems to be more of the norm. Consider that after the interrogators were convinced that they had learned all they could some CIA operatives insisted they continue to hammer away at one individual. I'm sure most people could make a construct where they would advocate harsh treatment, but approaching it as any other "tool" isn't right. We shouldn't be torturing as a fishing expedition.

THAT I can agree with. However to say 'Torture is wrong, we shouldn't do it' is just not acceptable to me. It shouldn't be used to get someone to admit to shoplifting.. but it SHOULD be used to save NYC from being nuked.. Everyone wants to be so black and white here.. its not black and white..

No it's never black and white. Thus, the torture or we will all die scenario promoted by you and Cheney doesn't work. It's not black or white, yes or no, A or B, torture or die.... there are always other options.

 

[Titan]

We need a lot more people to start acting like that.

It's dumb to be bickering back and forth in the talking points that are setup for us by those who initiate the argument.

Much better to realize it's bullshit, back away, and stand on principle.

Then come up with a plan to do the right thing.

Too bad principles are an excuse to commit atrocities like freedom leads to torture.

Hm, well no easy solutions.

I'm off to keep talking to myself.

 

[nakedfrog]

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Stand up for what's right.

No one is ever elevated by embracing evil, it merely justifies that which we say we are against.

Good man.

Yeah, I wonder if his family was being held hostage if he would change his mind. Taking the moral high ground is easy when your life isn't on the line. I doubt he would say 'This is America - We don't torture' if that meant his wife and children would likely be killed.

But whatever, This is America and we are entitled to differing opinions.. and one of those is that torture is acceptable in certain cases.. I am one that falls under that belief that the President can and should use torture when American lives are at risk and if he believes it will succeed in saving them.

I'm sure I will be labeled for that.. but I don't care.. its my belief. I'd rather be alive and tainted than dead holding the moral high ground.

What are your thoughts on the Geneva Conventions and Law of Armed Conflict?

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Stand up for what's right.

No one is ever elevated by embracing evil, it merely justifies that which we say we are against.

Good man.

Yeah, I wonder if his family was being held hostage if he would change his mind. Taking the moral high ground is easy when your life isn't on the line. I doubt he would say 'This is America - We don't torture' if that meant his wife and children would likely be killed.

But whatever, This is America and we are entitled to differing opinions.. and one of those is that torture is acceptable in certain cases.. I am one that falls under that belief that the President can and should use torture when American lives are at risk and if he believes it will succeed in saving them.

I'm sure I will be labeled for that.. but I don't care.. its my belief. I'd rather be alive and tainted than dead holding the moral high ground.

The problem is that the low ground seems to be more of the norm. Consider that after the interrogators were convinced that they had learned all they could some CIA operatives insisted they continue to hammer away at one individual. I'm sure most people could make a construct where they would advocate harsh treatment, but approaching it as any other "tool" isn't right. We shouldn't be torturing as a fishing expedition.

THAT I can agree with. However to say 'Torture is wrong, we shouldn't do it' is just not acceptable to me. It shouldn't be used to get someone to admit to shoplifting.. but it SHOULD be used to save NYC from being nuked.. Everyone wants to be so black and white here.. its not black and white..

From the context of the video, Gallagher was taking things much too casually. I don't know what Shepard's view is on the extremes, but I would have acted precisely the same. It's one thing to use apocalyptic hypotheticals, but when dealing with the attitude of "Well, it's just another interrogation technique" deserves the rant it got.

Given a hypothetical where one of my children was buried alive and I had access to the guy who did it and only hours to find them, I would use means better not mentioned. Let's say that nothing would be off limits to save one that I loved. I'm no saint. Nevertheless, we aren't talking those scenarios, but what has passed in the real world.

 

[trooper11]

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider

From the context of the video, Gallagher was taking things much too casually. I don't know what Shepard's view is on the extremes, but I would have acted precisely the same. It's one thing to use apocalyptic hypotheticals, but when dealing with the attitude of "Well, it's just another interrogation technique" deserves the rant it got.

Given a hypothetical where one of my children was buried alive and I had access to the guy who did it and only hours to find them, I would use means better not mentioned. Let's say that nothing would be off limits to save one that I loved. I'm no saint. Nevertheless, we aren't talking those scenarios, but what has passed in the real world.

You make a great point here. While there may be times when extreme measure are used in the event of something that serious, our policy doesnt need to reflect that. The offical rules should reflect our collective idea of what is torture, what practices go against the spirit of the country.

Those extraordinary times are not times that should be publicly promoted.

 

[Fear No Evil]

Originally posted by: JSFLY

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Stand up for what's right.

No one is ever elevated by embracing evil, it merely justifies that which we say we are against.

Good man.

Yeah, I wonder if his family was being held hostage if he would change his mind. Taking the moral high ground is easy when your life isn't on the line. I doubt he would say 'This is America - We don't torture' if that meant his wife and children would likely be killed.

But whatever, This is America and we are entitled to differing opinions.. and one of those is that torture is acceptable in certain cases.. I am one that falls under that belief that the President can and should use torture when American lives are at risk and if he believes it will succeed in saving them.

I'm sure I will be labeled for that.. but I don't care.. its my belief. I'd rather be alive and tainted than dead holding the moral high ground.

The problem is that the low ground seems to be more of the norm. Consider that after the interrogators were convinced that they had learned all they could some CIA operatives insisted they continue to hammer away at one individual. I'm sure most people could make a construct where they would advocate harsh treatment, but approaching it as any other "tool" isn't right. We shouldn't be torturing as a fishing expedition.

THAT I can agree with. However to say 'Torture is wrong, we shouldn't do it' is just not acceptable to me. It shouldn't be used to get someone to admit to shoplifting.. but it SHOULD be used to save NYC from being nuked.. Everyone wants to be so black and white here.. its not black and white..

No it's never black and white. Thus, the torture or we will all die scenario promoted by you and Cheney doesn't work. It's not black or white, yes or no, A or B, torture or die.... there are always other options.

Yep.. I routinely spent my time in 2001-2008 in the white house with Cheney promoting this idea. I was 'Chief Torture Officer' for the Bush Administration. He asked me to go hunting with him once, I told him I would prefer to stay behind and continue our 'Torture or die' campaign.

 

[Zedtom]

Shepard Smith represents what a true American should be. A person who does not bend under the pressure of his employer's corporate philosophy. A person who knows bullshit when he hears it, and is not afraid to call a person out for distorting reality.

 

[Fear No Evil]

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Stand up for what's right.

No one is ever elevated by embracing evil, it merely justifies that which we say we are against.

Good man.

Yeah, I wonder if his family was being held hostage if he would change his mind. Taking the moral high ground is easy when your life isn't on the line. I doubt he would say 'This is America - We don't torture' if that meant his wife and children would likely be killed.

But whatever, This is America and we are entitled to differing opinions.. and one of those is that torture is acceptable in certain cases.. I am one that falls under that belief that the President can and should use torture when American lives are at risk and if he believes it will succeed in saving them.

I'm sure I will be labeled for that.. but I don't care.. its my belief. I'd rather be alive and tainted than dead holding the moral high ground.

What are your thoughts on the Geneva Conventions and Law of Armed Conflict?

I don't know much about the LOAC, but the Geneva Conventions generally only apply to uniformed soldiers fighting for a specific country.. I suspect the LOAC is similar. I don't think these would apply to groups of radicals acting as terrorists on behalf of Islam or whatever their cause is.

But in all honesty, if we could have tortured some German General and saved the lives of millions killed in the Holocaust, I would support it.. The moral high ground isn't just the action, it whats you are fighting against as well. Torturing a German General may have been evil.. but the good obtained by it if it could have saved 100's of thousands or millions of poeple would have outweighed that.

 

[Fear No Evil]

Originally posted by: Zedtom
Shepard Smith represents what a true American should be. A person who does not bend under the pressure of his employer's corporate philosophy. A person who knows bullshit when he hears it, and is not afraid to call a person out for distorting reality.

Please.. the ONLY reason you are saying this is because he supports your view on this issue. I bet he is against the bailouts and the massive increase in spending Obama is doing. Does he still have your respect? Or is he just toting the Fox News line on those issues?

 

[Zedtom]

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Originally posted by: Zedtom
Shepard Smith represents what a true American should be. A person who does not bend under the pressure of his employer's corporate philosophy. A person who knows bullshit when he hears it, and is not afraid to call a person out for distorting reality.

Please.. the ONLY reason you are saying this is because he supports your view on this issue. I bet he is against the bailouts and the massive increase in spending Obama is doing. Does he still have your respect? Or is he just toting the Fox News line on those issues?

Do you support the bailouts and the massive spending?

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Originally posted by: Zedtom
Shepard Smith represents what a true American should be. A person who does not bend under the pressure of his employer's corporate philosophy. A person who knows bullshit when he hears it, and is not afraid to call a person out for distorting reality.

Please.. the ONLY reason you are saying this is because he supports your view on this issue. I bet he is against the bailouts and the massive increase in spending Obama is doing. Does he still have your respect? Or is he just toting the Fox News line on those issues?

This post is really interesting because it illustrates how you actually think about things. To you all of these issues are the same because they are just different battles in the endless war between liberals and conservatives.

A lot of other people view things from a very different and far more mature standpoint. Someone can be against the bailouts or Obama's budget and I can easily respect them. I have friends who are against both of these things in fact. I cannot respect someone who is pro-torture. So, if our good friend Shep came out in support of torture he would in fact lose all of my respect because he would be a disgusting human being.