SharkBite plumbing fittings are ridiculous

[iGas]

I'm not sure if it's changed or not, but Wirsbo Pex used to be warranted for life if installed by a certified installer.

I just happened to glance down at the price of copper pipe while I was shuffling through Home Depot (needed yet another 250 foot roll of copper wiring). The (10 foot sections of copper pipe; it was either 1/2" or 3/4", I just glanced, would have been over $20 including tax.

Wirsbo warranty is 5 years for fittings and manifold, 30 years for piping.

25 years for copper.

 

[paperfist]

Wirsbo warranty is 5 years for fittings and manifold, 30 years for piping.

25 years for copper.

We all know that from past history copper pipe lasts for eons Pex is up in the air still.

 

[Drako]

Yeh, I think I'll stick with copper. It lasts forever.

 

[iGas]

We all know that from past history copper pipe lasts for eons Pex is up in the air still.

I agree, but most if not all type L copper pipe (potable water) manufacturers rated their piping for 25 years.

I'm not sure what the local plumbing codes are in every US cities, but here in Canada Wirsbo/PEX, & Sharkbite fittings are not approve to be use on government/city sites, industrial, commercial, or institutional. However, they are approve for residential and non potable applications.

 

[pcgeek11]

I wouldn't buy a house with it, had one and it was the worst experience ever. It is just a way to plumb cheap and fast with no concern for the long term. Copper cost but in the long run it can't be beat.

Depends on the location. Search Copper Pinhole Leak Problems on google. It sucks. I had to have my entire house re-piped. Ripped out all the copper and went back in with CPVC.

 

[pcgeek11]

Those fittings are rated for cold water usage only.

I was just saying that the technology isn't new... You have always been able to get them with different ratings...

 

[iGas]

They look like a good idea, but I won't use them. The reason is simply that they're new. New things often have major problems a few years down the road, I don't want to have to go back and re-plumb dozens of projects.
For copper, there is also a glue available, so you don't have to sweat fittings. It's pretty nifty stuff, but I won't use it either.

In the county where I live pex isn't allowed, the official reason is that rats chew through it.

Rat chew through wiring and drainage piping (ABS/PVC/CVPC) as well and it is being use every where. IMHO, PEX hasn't been on the market for a long period with an unproven track record that is what cause the local licensing office to be cautious. The disastrous adoption of plastic piping (Poly-B) for potable water system during the 80s-90s make many local licensing office nervous.

 

[iGas]

I wouldn't have let that fly in my home -- he should have just been unlazy and broken out his torch and flux. They make fittings that can either sweat over top of copper pipe or sweat into a copper fitting and feature the PEX barb on the other end (you can get them as simple transitions, Ts, 90s, drop-eared, etc).



Cheap and fast isn't always a bad thing. Besides being cheap and fast, PEX also has the benefit of being less likely to burst if your water lines were to freeze. I'd put PEX in my house with no hesitation. I might go for PEX-A over PEX-B though (expansion versus crimp/cinch). I'd have my heating system done with HePEX too.

Both PEX and copper will bust when freeze, because the material become rigid. There is no to little expansion when PEX experience extreme weather condition, while copper still expand a little to some degree. However, water expansion still is greater than the expansion/elasticity of PEX & copper in freezing temperature.

 

[arcenite]

Both PEX and copper will bust when freeze, because the material become rigid. There is no to little expansion when PEX experience extreme weather condition, while copper still expand a little to some degree. However, water expansion still is greater than the expansion/elasticity of PEX & copper in freezing temperature.

Not to mention that any material contracts when it gets that cold

 

[Doppel]

It is often held, though I don't know if true, that pex does indeed withstand freezing better. I think it's a bit of a moot point as if your pipes are under freezing conditions you're got a bad situation and it's never going to tolerate a lot of it.

Copper doesn't last forever, apparently the expected lifespan is in the vicinity of 50 years. It can be much more or less depending on conditions like what's in the water; seems to vary wildly. It seems some local waters chew through copper quicker than others. This is all just what I can google, though and all I find are threads of people posting their opinions and experiences. I assume some american council or something or other has a much better opinion on this.

 

[SpatiallyAware]

IMO the routing and location is more important than the material as they all have their little issues. I would not buy a home with any pipe buried in a slab.



That being said, I've had the least amount of issues with cpvc.

 

[CPA]

I'm remodeling my master bath right now (thank you mold and ants) and am moving my shower head from an interior wall to an exterior wall. the reroute of the pipes calls for a ninety degree bend. Went back and forth between copper and pex. Decided to stick with the copper because a 90 degree bend is not going to crimp with copper, I live in Houston so low risk of freezing pipes and I don't have to worry about copper/pex transition issues.

 

[alent1234]

I'm a plumbing newb (like most reading this thread!) , but I saw these at Home Depot some time back and read up on them. http://www.sharkbiteplumbing.com/

Although they are not legal for sale in California or Vermont for some reason (the ones I got), the general consensus among professional plumbers is that although these are quite expensive they work as advertised (a few disagree, basically because worried about them but have no clear indication as why). I just used some for the first time on Pex (and the same one works on copper). Was just absurd. It simply pushes on. Then I put the water back on and no leaks. I know, that's what they're supposed to do, but it's unreal something that is literally just pushed on like this onto a smooth plastic like Pex should hold up for many years.

It's like Pex wasn't easy and quick enough so they had to make these. Lowes carries "GatorBite" versions...

seems like the reason you can't buy some of these in california is because some models contain lead

so if you ever have kids and they turn out to be retarts just look in the mirror for whose fault it is

 

[Modelworks]

I wouldn't use Pex because it hasn't been in use long enough. Copper has its problems but I don't recall anyone getting health problems from it. Pex has really been increasing in installs because of its ease of use , but already you see things like this being reported. Read the comments about Shell, typical corporate talk when a product has issues but they want to keep selling it.

The PEX EIR found that methyl tertiary-butyl ether (MTBE) and tert-Butyl alcohol can leach from PEX in amounts that exceed taste, odor and health guidelines set by the State of California for drinking water. The PEX EIR found that PEX pipes can initially leach as much as 290 ppb of MTBE.

The PEX EIR also found that PEX can leach ethyl tertiary butyl ether (ETBE), a chemical in the same family as MTBE, in amounts exceeding 100 ppb. An expert toxicologist report commissioned as part of the PEX EIR found that the leaching of ETBE from PEX pipe could contribute to taste and odor impacts, and could potentially lead to adverse health effects.

The PEX EIR found that PEX pipe is susceptible to permeation by outside contaminants such as pesticides, oil, gasoline, benzene and termiticides.

Numerous studies and articles submitted to the State of California comparing potable water pipe materials, including variants of PEX, polybutylene, polypropylene, CPVC, copper and steel, have found that PEX displayed the strongest biofilm formation and the strongest initial promotion of the growth of Legionella bacteria.

According to Lubrizol Advanced Materials, Inc., polybutylene pipe passed ASTM F2023 and still failed miserably in U.S. water conditions.

In 2002, the Plastic Pipe and Fittings Association (PPFA) filed an unsuccessful lawsuit arguing that review of PEX pipe under CEQA was unlawful. The Court of Appeal denied the PPFA claim and held that substantial evidence of potential drinking water contamination through chemical leaching and permeation, as well as evidence of mechanical performance problems and failures, required that PEX pipe undergo CEQA review prior to state approval.

Shell was sued across the nation, as well as in San Diego, where class-action lawsuits were filed on behalf of 60,000 homeowners with failing PB pipe. Shell withdrew the product from the marketplace and stopped all manufacture of the pipe. It is estimated that more than one million American homes may eventually suffer problems with PB failures.

Shell ultimately agreed to a one billion dollar settlement of the claims. Furthermore, Leonardini won a five million dollar judgment against Shell for malicious prosecution of the trade libel claim. According to the Court of Appeal decision, “Shell's policy was that if the state did not discover any health problems with the system on its own and did not specifically ask for that information, Shell would not volunteer it.” (Leonardini v. Shell Oil Co. (1989) 216 Cal.App.3d 547.)

 

[the DRIZZLE]

If I was doing a big job I'd invest in some pro-press gear. IMO it gives you the best of both worlds between traditional copper and sharkbite.

 

[paperfist]

I'm remodeling my master bath right now (thank you mold and ants) and am moving my shower head from an interior wall to an exterior wall. the reroute of the pipes calls for a ninety degree bend. Went back and forth between copper and pex. Decided to stick with the copper because a 90 degree bend is not going to crimp with copper, I live in Houston so low risk of freezing pipes and I don't have to worry about copper/pex transition issues.

Not sure of the code their, but you generally aren't allowed to plumb on an outside wall due to the mentioned freezing potential. With the crazy weather patterns emerging year after year I would rethink putting the line there.

I agree, but most if not all type L copper pipe (potable water) manufacturers rated their piping for 25 years.

I'm not sure what the local plumbing codes are in every US cities, but here in Canada Wirsbo/PEX, & Sharkbite fittings are not approve to be use on government/city sites, industrial, commercial, or institutional. However, they are approve for residential and non potable applications.

I'm really curious to know how Pex is going to hold up in under floor installations where it's used to heat. I'd love to use it in that application when I ever get around to building a house, but having to set that stuff up in a bed of concrete is scary when you think at some point it's going to fail and need to all be redone.

 

[DrPizza]

If I was doing a big job I'd invest in some pro-press gear. IMO it gives you the best of both worlds between traditional copper and sharkbite.

I agree that for anything other than trivial sized repairs that getting a set of tools would be preferable (at least to me anyway.) Avoiding the sharkbite fittings will save money for medium to larger jobs, without really affecting the installation time. At a glance from pex supply, a 1/2 inch coupling is 57 cents. Crimp rings are about 25 cents. Compare that to home depots 1/2 inch sharkbite coupling at $7.19. That's over $6 saved just for one connection. Doesn't take a lot of connections before you've saved enough money to purchase the tools outright. Not to mention just rent the tools for a couple of hours. (I chose the 1/2 coupling because it was the first fitting that came up in the list of fittings; I can't think of a reason I'd ever need a simple coupling with pex.

Igas - yep, I see that the warranty is 25 years on the tubing now. I wonder if it's always been that way (and my bro-in-law was wrong) or if they changed it after it started gaining a lot wider acceptance. We replaced all of the plumbing in our house the day after we closed (because the idiots at the bank shut off the heat, which probably cost them a few 10's of 1000's of dollars as a result of it sitting on the market forever because (almost) no one (I succeeded; multiple people failed before me though) could get a loan for a house without plumbing and without a heating system (hot water baseboard was ruined as well.) Bro in law supplied the tools and half the labor. He was a certified installer, and I'm pretty sure he said that it was a lifetime thing, though that didn't apply to me since installation cost me a couple six packs of beer.

 

[amdskip]

Depends on the location. Search Copper Pinhole Leak Problems on google. It sucks. I had to have my entire house re-piped. Ripped out all the copper and went back in with CPVC.

Happens here too, cpvc throughout my house.

I redid another house a few weeks ago with pex. Pics for your enjoyment:

And what happens when the old fixtures cannot handle all the new water pressure:

This was my first full pex install and I learned a lot. I used wirsbo pex A tubing with a manual expansion tool ($280 ouch but oh so nice).

 

[CPA]

Not sure of the code their, but you generally aren't allowed to plumb on an outside wall due to the mentioned freezing potential. With the crazy weather patterns emerging year after year I would rethink putting the line there.



I'm really curious to know how Pex is going to hold up in under floor installations where it's used to heat. I'd love to use it in that application when I ever get around to building a house, but having to set that stuff up in a bed of concrete is scary when you think at some point it's going to fail and need to all be redone.

I live in a county with no permitting required. Plus, the plumbing to the bathtub came down the same exterior wall.

 

[iGas]

Not sure of the code their, but you generally aren't allowed to plumb on an outside wall due to the mentioned freezing potential. With the crazy weather patterns emerging year after year I would rethink putting the line there.



I'm really curious to know how Pex is going to hold up in under floor installations where it's used to heat. I'd love to use it in that application when I ever get around to building a house, but having to set that stuff up in a bed of concrete is scary when you think at some point it's going to fail and need to all be redone.

PEX-AL and hePEX has been around for a while and both proved that it can certainly handle being embedded in concrete.

 

[Doppel]

so if you ever have kids and they turn out to be retarts just look in the mirror for whose fault it is

is "retart" how retards spell?

Btw you can make a 90 degree with PEX as there are Fittings just for that. The idea that a seamless run from manifold to outlet can be made is nice but certainly not always realistic.

 

[Red Squirrel]

wait, cpvc can be used for water supply? I did not know that. I never worked with it myself, but it does look fairly easy to work with, and no expensive tools required. I would imagine it's quite strong too? Though, I don't know if I'd want to rely on a glue connection for high pressure application, then again, pvc glue causes a "fuse" reaction so it's more than just glue.

 

[boomhower]

Lowes come out a couple days ago to put the washing machine in my new house, low and behold the hot water valve was bent to a 90 angle. Evidently the old hose was coroded on and whoever tried to get it off bent the valve. Called a coworker who does plumbing on the side. An hour later he came over, took a look, ran to the parts store, and came back with a sharkbite. 10 minutes later he had it all hooked up. He only charged me $30 parts/labor. Regular plumber probably would have been $100 just to show up.

 

[paperfist]

wait, cpvc can be used for water supply? I did not know that. I never worked with it myself, but it does look fairly easy to work with, and no expensive tools required. I would imagine it's quite strong too? Though, I don't know if I'd want to rely on a glue connection for high pressure application, then again, pvc glue causes a "fuse" reaction so it's more than just glue.

In NY as far as I know its only allowed in trailers. In the city it can't handle the up to 80 PSI you find in some homes.

 

[GregGreen]

I agree that for anything other than trivial sized repairs that getting a set of tools would be preferable (at least to me anyway.) Avoiding the sharkbite fittings will save money for medium to larger jobs, without really affecting the installation time. At a glance from pex supply, a 1/2 inch coupling is 57 cents. Crimp rings are about 25 cents. Compare that to home depots 1/2 inch sharkbite coupling at $7.19. That's over $6 saved just for one connection. Doesn't take a lot of connections before you've saved enough money to purchase the tools outright. Not to mention just rent the tools for a couple of hours. (I chose the 1/2 coupling because it was the first fitting that came up in the list of fittings; I can't think of a reason I'd ever need a simple coupling with pex.

Igas - yep, I see that the warranty is 25 years on the tubing now. I wonder if it's always been that way (and my bro-in-law was wrong) or if they changed it after it started gaining a lot wider acceptance. We replaced all of the plumbing in our house the day after we closed (because the idiots at the bank shut off the heat, which probably cost them a few 10's of 1000's of dollars as a result of it sitting on the market forever because (almost) no one (I succeeded; multiple people failed before me though) could get a loan for a house without plumbing and without a heating system (hot water baseboard was ruined as well.) Bro in law supplied the tools and half the labor. He was a certified installer, and I'm pretty sure he said that it was a lifetime thing, though that didn't apply to me since installation cost me a couple six packs of beer.

I think he was referring to something like the Ridgid ProPress system which uses a tool like http://www.ridgid.com/Tools/RP210B-Press-Tool and fittings like http://s3.pexsupply.com/images/products/zoom/78072-1.jpg. I'm pretty sure there are some other manufacturers out there too with similar (and not always compatible) product. You don't see many of those tools except amongst the plumbers/HVAC guys who do a lot of jobs -- often the same people that would have a Wirsbo expansion tool. I know some places will rent you a tool for the ProPress, but the fittings aren't cheap either.

I also thought that the Wirsbo/Uponor Pex had a lifetime warranty, so I looked it up. It is a lifetime warranty, but lifetime is defined as 25 years.

"This limited warranty shall expire, from the date of installation, in twenty-five (25) years for Wirsbo hePEXTM, Wirsbo hePEXTMplus, Wirsbo AQUAPEX® and Wirsbo MultiCorTM tubing; and shall expire in eighteen (18) months for fittings, manifolds, electrical parts and staplers.