Forgive the ignorance, but I'm thinking about buying a card to last me for a few years. With all the talk about upcoming games utilizing SM3.0 (F.E.A.R, HL2 Lost Coast), I'm concerned that I may buy a card and then be unsatisfied with its lackluster performance. What will be the repercussions of buying a card without SM3.0 support? Thanks for all feedback.
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Shader Model 3.0
- Thread starter andy9o
- Start date
stnicralisk
Golden Member
How long do you plan on keeping your card? If you plan on keeping the card more than six months you are going to want SM3.0.
At that price, no other card even comes close in performance, sm3 or not. The card is fast, I'm pretty sure in most cases it's faster than any single geforce 6 card, so if in 2 years games come out that make this card struggle, the gf6 cards will be struggling just as much with sm3 even.
However, if you're willing to wait a month or two, both Nvidia and Ati will be relesing their new products, all of which will support sm3, and you'll have a much wider range of cards to chose from. All the x800 and 6xxx series are technically last-gen parts already, so I'd think twice before buying one if I wanted to keep it for a few years.
However, if you're willing to wait a month or two, both Nvidia and Ati will be relesing their new products, all of which will support sm3, and you'll have a much wider range of cards to chose from. All the x800 and 6xxx series are technically last-gen parts already, so I'd think twice before buying one if I wanted to keep it for a few years.
Matthias99
Diamond Member
I doubt you'll be missing it much. PS2.0 can do essentially anything that PS3.0 can do (but sometimes a little slower/less efficiently -- although ATI's PS2.0b addresses much of this if the game supports it), and the things that VS2.0 can't do that VS3.0 can (like hardware displacement mapping) are unlikely to run well on a card in that price range anyway. For more on this, please see the last bazillion threads about SM2.0 versus SM3.0.
Those UE3 screenshots you may have seen, using SM3.0? The demo ran at about 20FPS. On a 6800U SLI.
Those UE3 screenshots you may have seen, using SM3.0? The demo ran at about 20FPS. On a 6800U SLI.
Matthias99
Diamond Member
They'll be real close, and either one will perform well. The 6800GT is better at OpenGL, the X800XL is usually a tad faster at HL2/Far Cry, and they're about even in everything else. The X800XL is usually cheaper at this point.
If you're concerned about SM3.0, and the prices are close, and it will make you feel better, get the 6800GT. Otherwise, I would buy the X800XL and not worry about it. I'd try to wait at least a few weeks and see what NVIDIA is releasing, though, as it could adjust prices on older cards.
Keysplayr
Elite Member
Your sarcasm has my sides splitting. Not really. Just noticing, snowman, that you did not attempt to help the OP whatsoever and opted to poke someone who was. Sweet Job.
If you were thinking you were helping the OP by poking at Stalincrask's post, it may have been much more effective if you had explained to the OP why you said that.
To the OP: The card you linked to is an OUTSTANDING deal. Although you may be waiting a while to get one. (Notice the Pre-order status)
Munky: This is a guess based on our current knowledge of SM3.0 benefits.
"so if in 2 years games come out that make this card struggle, the gf6 cards will be struggling just as much with sm3 even." You can't know this.
You are both making the asumption that SM3.0 will definately not have any impact in the future. If this is true, and there will not be any difference between an SM2.0 card and an SM3.0 card, why not go with the SM3.0 card. In other words, you can't go wrong if your right about SM3.0. However, you can go wrong if you are wrong about SM3.0.
Summary: Get the SM3.0 part over the SM2.0 part. This X800XTPE for 229.00 deal is cheap enough not to really care for some people. However, you may be waiting for a long time to finally take delivery of one. I'd like to get a count of how many people here on AT actually this great deal and actually took delivery of this card.
My .02
Matthias99
Diamond Member
Sorry, I looked at your link and thought it was an X800XL, not the X800XT. 😛 I also didn't notice you were looking at an AGP card, not PCIe.
$229 for an X800XTPE would be a great deal... if they had one in stock. 😛
Gunslinger08
Lifer
They will be in another week or two. I ordered mine a week ago.
hans030390
Diamond Member
First off, Shader model 3 will be very heavily used in next gen games. Sure, maybe the UE3 demo ran slowly, but you have to consider this:
1. It wasnt completed yet (and still isn't)
2. that was on like uber graphics settings
3. Whoever makes the UE3 engine said "a 6600gt will run games based off of the engine fine"
Now, that could mean Low settings on 800x600, but thats better than nothing at all. A 6800gt would probably do a good bit better.
Also, FEAR has a very nice performance boost on SM3 (6800gt beats the second best card out, the x850) and its also funny that the game is an ATI game. Last time i checked, ATI games ran better with ATI cards...and with SM3, it doesnt.
if that doesnt say something to you, you're weird.
Also, the reason they used 6800gts in SLI to make the UE3 engine was for two major reasons:
1. Together they are powerful. Very powerful.
2. Shader model 3. Duh, how else do you get the great graphics.
And yes, Shader model 3 DOES have a nice IQ boost over Sm2. Its due to features like Displacement mapping (something that i'm excited about, and you should read up on if you dont know about it) and extremely long shader code lengths (65000 vs sm2's 600). That allows for some really nice looking shaders and doesnt kill performance because the shader codes dont have to be split up like in SM2 (because they can't fit sometimes).
So basically, yes, you NEED a Sm3 card since you said "...but I'm thinking about buying a card to last me for a few years."
Also, if you get a 6800gt, it does GREAT for now games. No need in getting the x800 whatever because the performance numbers are well above 60fps in most games. Plus, if people like munky are wrong about Sm3, then Sm3 will benefit the 6 series cards very well in next gen. If we're wrong about Sm3, then Sm2 is no better off.
So at least you're safer with SM3.
I don't even recommend reading up on SM3 because you plan on keeping the card for a while. In fact, one website says "there's no sense in buying an ATI card at the moment." and that was from a good source.
Even if the ATI cards are nicely priced and do well in today's games, they are missing a key feature, SM3. Just to let you know, Microsoft is the one that set the standard for SM3. So, next gen, Sm3 will be standard.
In fact, the xbox 360 only runs on SM3. And its a console, but consoles are very much like PCs now.
So i hope you take the smart advice and get a 6800gt or something.
1. It wasnt completed yet (and still isn't)
2. that was on like uber graphics settings
3. Whoever makes the UE3 engine said "a 6600gt will run games based off of the engine fine"
Now, that could mean Low settings on 800x600, but thats better than nothing at all. A 6800gt would probably do a good bit better.
Also, FEAR has a very nice performance boost on SM3 (6800gt beats the second best card out, the x850) and its also funny that the game is an ATI game. Last time i checked, ATI games ran better with ATI cards...and with SM3, it doesnt.
if that doesnt say something to you, you're weird.
Also, the reason they used 6800gts in SLI to make the UE3 engine was for two major reasons:
1. Together they are powerful. Very powerful.
2. Shader model 3. Duh, how else do you get the great graphics.
And yes, Shader model 3 DOES have a nice IQ boost over Sm2. Its due to features like Displacement mapping (something that i'm excited about, and you should read up on if you dont know about it) and extremely long shader code lengths (65000 vs sm2's 600). That allows for some really nice looking shaders and doesnt kill performance because the shader codes dont have to be split up like in SM2 (because they can't fit sometimes).
So basically, yes, you NEED a Sm3 card since you said "...but I'm thinking about buying a card to last me for a few years."
Also, if you get a 6800gt, it does GREAT for now games. No need in getting the x800 whatever because the performance numbers are well above 60fps in most games. Plus, if people like munky are wrong about Sm3, then Sm3 will benefit the 6 series cards very well in next gen. If we're wrong about Sm3, then Sm2 is no better off.
So at least you're safer with SM3.
I don't even recommend reading up on SM3 because you plan on keeping the card for a while. In fact, one website says "there's no sense in buying an ATI card at the moment." and that was from a good source.
Even if the ATI cards are nicely priced and do well in today's games, they are missing a key feature, SM3. Just to let you know, Microsoft is the one that set the standard for SM3. So, next gen, Sm3 will be standard.
In fact, the xbox 360 only runs on SM3. And its a console, but consoles are very much like PCs now.
So i hope you take the smart advice and get a 6800gt or something.
hans030390
Diamond Member
oh and i should mention that Nvidia is releasing 3 new cards in like....3 days. Probably includes a nice card for your price range that will kill the x800 or 6800gt.
that will be your best bet.
that will be your best bet.
Matthias99
Diamond Member
Please stop posting this one-sided stuff every videocard thread. It's really getting old.
SM3.0 may be useful on cards of this class. It may be not. I find it very unlikely it will do much on a single GF6 card (and even a 6800GT/Ultra SLI may not see much benefit). Much-ballyhooed features like hardware displacement mapping and 1000+-instruction shaders will bring these cards to their knees, and will likely be all but unusable. OpenEXR HDR (which is not part of SM3.0, but that NVIDIA cards currently have) is interesting, and sometimes usable, but disables AA, which is a pretty nasty tradeoff.
Is SM3.0 better than SM2.0? Undoubtedly. If there are two cards that are exactly the same price and speed, but one has SM3.0 and the other doesn't, you'd be an idiot to not get the one with better features. But IMO, it's just not worth that much on these cards. It's unlikely to give you more than a small speed boost in some games/situations. For example, in Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory, SM2.0 looks almost exactly the same as SM3.0, and performance doesn't change much. The only difference is that NVIDIA cards also happen to support soft shadows in their engine (which, again, is completely separate from SM3.0, and also causes large performance hits).
hans030390
Diamond Member
Just to let you know, NO ONE KNOWS whether or not Sm3 at full use will bring the 6 series "to their knees." Who said we'd have to use it at full use? So it's stll a safer choice to get SM3 when you have a chance to use it in next gen.
Jeez.
hans030390
Diamond Member
It isn't? 😉 Well that was an obvious statement you posted there.
I'm just saying, SM3 cards have a chance of running next gen games at Sm3 (and at decent framerates) with more eye candy than SM2 does and all that other crap.
See, it has a chance. Might as well get the sm3 card if it has the same price and performance as another card that doesnt. If you do get the Sm2 card (and know about sm3)...that is called, ignorance? Something like that. I'm not big on words.
So yeah its not better now, but the newer features will make the card BETTER than the Sm2 card in the future just from newer features. I didn't say it will PWNZ the sm2 card, but it will do better. It might suck though, but still do better. Get what I'm saying? SM3 is just safer to get.
I still have trouble why many people don't want newer features...considering they'll be used very soon.
kylebisme
Diamond Member
There is also the chance you will wind up with same eye candy and less performace like we see in benchmarks SC3 and Far Cry.
We have seen it has a chance of going either way, ignoring that would be ignorance.
Was the 8500 better than the Geforce4 becuase the 8500 has PS1.4? The 8500 does have it's moments but over all I'd rather have a Geforce4.
It isn't that people don't want newer features, there are simply more factors that go into what card some of us choose to use.
Matthias99
Diamond Member
If everything else is equal, you should get a card with SM3.0 over one with SM2.0. Nobody is denying this. However, this is rarely (if ever) the case. For instance, right now you can get a PCIe-based X800XL for about $280, while a PCIe-based 6800GT is running around $325-350. And just a few weeks ago you could get a ~20% better-performing X800 for about the same price as a 6600GT (6600GT prices have now been driven down below $150, mostly because of the existence of the X800). Those are significant price/performance differences in today's games.
SM3.0 is likely to give a small (0-5%, based on the few games using it so far) boost to performance, at least some of the time. This comes from using PS3.0 to rewrite shaders more efficiently than they can be written using PS2.0.
You can also use SM3.0 to improve IQ, either by writing longer pixel shaders with PS3.0, or by writing more complex vertex shaders with VS3.0 (such as ones to do hardware displacement mapping). SM3.0 support, however, does not give any sort of boost to the number of shader instructions/second that a GPU can execute. If a card can't run 50-instruction shaders at a decent framerate, giving it PS3.0 support does not magically make it capable of running 500-instruction shaders at a decent framerate. Displacement mapping, in particular, is one of the most GPU-intensive things you can do, and I find it very unlikely that any single GF6 card (or maybe even a single GF7) would be able to use it in any widespread fashion.
Given that, I can't see paying much of a premium for SM3.0. While it is likely that games in the next few years will start to actually make use of some of the features, the benefits will probably not be great for today's cards. Either you'll get a small performance boost (nice, but hardly earth-shattering), or IQ-enhancing features that you can't use because they kill performance. If you look at the facts and you disagree -- well, that doesn't bother me a bit. Buy whatever makes you happy. But please, please, PLEASE don't go around spreading one-sided information that ends up misinforming people.
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