SFF build, too many choices, please help

[imported_Shakespeare]

Hi all,

Please help, I'm drowning in all the choices.

My budget is $1500 Hard (including shipping, taxes, and accessories) so more like $1200 to spend.

I want to build a portable LAN gaming system. Games are Half-Life 2, Battlefield 2, Neverwinter Nights 2, LO:MAC, etc.

I want a small case (mATX), stressing portability.

I don't overclock.

Do I spend on MB and Mem now and upgrade CPU & Video later? Single DX10 card or Dual (Seperate) DX9 cards? Are the new 'dual' cards (two GPUs, one physical card) the death of SLI or Crossfire?

If no SLI, is 450W power enough for DX10 2on1 cards?

Is a small fast O/S drive with bigger storage drive that much better than a single large (300 Gb+) drive for everything?

First Try:
- MB: MSI 915GM-FR (Not sure, any other recommendations?)
- Processor: Intel Core 2 Duo E6400 (2.13GHz 2MB Shared)-Retail
- Memory: Again, the choices!, recommendations?
- Case: ThermalTake VF1000BWA LANBOX mATX Desktop Case-Black
- Power: Thermaltake 600W W0129RU
- Optical: LG 18X DVD+R
- NIC: Integrated Realtek RTL8110S, 10/100/1000
- Audio: 7.1 channel surround

- HDD: See above
- Video Card: See above

Recommend away!

I already have a good FP display, peripherals, and headphones.

TIA

Check Six,
Shakespeare

 

[Brainonska511]

If you want a DX10 card, I suggest waiting a little longer until more are released, so you have a wider selection. Especially considering how you want a mATX case, so a long card, such as the 8800GT/X might not fit. SLI isn't important, unless you want to drive a large monitor (at least 1600x1200 resolution). SLI in a mATX case may be a tough thing to do, and I don't know if there are too many Intel compatible boards that do SLI in the mATX form factor.

HDD: I suggest getting a hard drive that will fit everything you need + room for expansion. I don't think you'll see much of a difference between using one hdd for the OS and the other for programs/storage. Also, getting 1 hard drive now leaves room in most cases to add another at a later point (in case you ever need more storage space).

I'm setting up a suggested system for you at the moment, I'll edit this post when that is complete.

Edit:
I built a system similar to yours, it came out to $1416.92 + $35.93 in shipping (all at Newegg) (No OS included). Certain things to cut costs could be, go with an Enermax Liberty 500W PSU instead of the 620W, cut ram to 2x512MB (1GB total), skip out on the GPU for now, until there is a wider selection available to drive down costs:

Processor: Intel C2D E6400 (2.13GHz/1066MHz FSB)
Mobo: Intel G965 mATX - Choosen for the placement of the PCI-Ex1 slot next to the PCI-Ex16 slot (keeps a GPU from taking up the PCI slots)
RAM: 2x1GB kit G.Skill DDR2 800
PSU: Enermax Liberty 620W (Very quiet PSUs)
Sound: X-Fi Xtreme Audio - can do 7.1 sound, you can cut costs by just using the onboard sound from the mobo
GPU: PNY GeForce 8800GTS
HDD: Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 320GB - Get a smaller hard drive (if you don't need one this large) to save some more money. Seagates are great for their 5 year warranty.
Case: Thermaltake VF1000SWA
Optical: Lite-On 18x DVD Burner (Retail) - Retail, which costs about $2-3 more than OEM has NERO burning software which may or may not be worth anything to you.

 

[deathwalker]

I have a Ultra Products Microfly case and I love it. Something like this.
http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=382313

 

[imported_Shakespeare]

Originally posted by: Brainonska511
I built a system similar to yours, it came out to $1416.92 + $35.93 in shipping (all at Newegg) (No OS included).

I need to buy an O/S for this box. Can't transfer from my laptop or Tower Pcs!

Originally posted by: Brainonska511
Certain things to cut costs could be, go with an Enermax Liberty 500W PSU instead of the 620W, cut ram to 2x512MB (1GB total), skip out on the GPU for now, until there is a wider selection available to drive down costs:

I didn't mention 2 Gb memory is a minimum, so no skimping there.

Thanks for all the work and suggestions, I'll look all this over and get back to you.

Check Six,
Shakespeare

 

[Brainonska511]

Originally posted by: Shakespeare

Originally posted by: Brainonska511
I built a system similar to yours, it came out to $1416.92 + $35.93 in shipping (all at Newegg) (No OS included).

I need to buy an O/S for this box. Can't transfer from my laptop or Tower Pcs!

Originally posted by: Brainonska511
Certain things to cut costs could be, go with an Enermax Liberty 500W PSU instead of the 620W, cut ram to 2x512MB (1GB total), skip out on the GPU for now, until there is a wider selection available to drive down costs:

I didn't mention 2 Gb memory is a minimum, so no skimping there.

Thanks for all the work and suggestions, I'll look all this over and get back to you.

Check Six,
Shakespeare

Yeah, that was one of the problems that I had designing the system. You could go with a cheaper case and shave off $50-$75 with that, then go with a lighter PSU, since you can easily build a mATX with a good GPU on a 500W PSU too. Go with a smaller hard drive, skip out on the sound card and use integrated sound, etc.

If you plan on holding off for a wider selection of DX10 cards, you can always build a system with 1GB of RAM and upgrade it to 2GB when you get a DX10 card.

 

[imported_Shakespeare]

OK, thanks to Brainonska511 we're getting closer.

- MB: MSI 945GM3-F LGA 775 Intel 945G mATX-Retail (Any other recommendations?)
- Processor: Intel Core 2 Duo E6400 (2.13GHz 2MB Shared)-Retail
- Memory: 2x1GB kit G.Skill DDR2 800 (Again, the choices!, why this memory? different recommendations?)
- HDD: Seagate Barracuda ES ST3320620NS 320GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive - OEM
- Case: ThermalTake VF1000BWA LANBOX mATX Desktop Case-Black
- Power: Thermaltake 600W W0129RU
- Optical: LG 18X DVD+R
- NIC: Integrated Realtek RTL8110SC, 10/100/1000
- Audio: Integrated Realtek ALC883, 8 channel audio
- OS: XP Pro SP2, upgrade to Vista Home Premium

- Video: eVGA 256-P2-N550 -T2 GeForce 7600GT 256MB GDDR3 PCI Express x16 Video Card - Retail
or
- Video: XFX PVT71PUDP3 GeForce 7900GS 256MB GDDR3 PCI Express x16 EXTREME Video Card - Retail [$30 Rebate]
(Is the 256 bit memory bus worth the extra $50?)
; upgrade to DX10 video in the late summer or fall)
or- Video: SAPPHIRE 100186L Radeon X1950XT 256MB GDDR3 PCI Express x16 VIVO HDCP Video Card - Retail
; upgrade to a DX10 card in 2008?


I've been thinking about building this box for months, and every time I get close to pulling the trigger, some new tech

derails my plans! Vista and DX10 be damned for now.

TIA

Check Six,
Shakespeare

 

[Brainonska511]

Don't get the DDR2 800 if you plan on using a 945 chipseted board. The 945 chipset can use RAM up to a speed of DDR2 667. You can get this Kingston 2GB kit for $180 instead of paying $200 for the DDR2 800 that would either clock back to 667 in the board you chose or not work at all: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16820134046

The 7600GT is a good, midrange card. If you plan on upgrading to a DX10 card this summer or fall, which you seem to want to do, just get the 7600GT. It will play all of todays games, not at the top settings, but it will let you play them decently until you upgrade to a DX10 card which will be cheaper and have a wider selection come summer/fall.
This BFG card: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814143049 is cheaper AR than the eVGA card you have listed ($90 vs. $100), so that is another way to trim some money off the total.

 

[VooDooAddict]

The Thermaltake is nice ... but with a budget and space to fit a DX10 card you probably want the UltraFly. It's not as pretty but it will definetly get the job done. UltraFly @ $72 Free Shipping http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=382315 (Black) or http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=382314 (Silver)


If this is a LAN gaming box; Budget the 2GB of RAM and the Video card FIRST.

Any 2Gig (2x1GB) DDR2-800 Kit will do you. The G.Skill is highly recommended around for simply "working at spec" at a good price. Yes the 945G boards max memory speed is 667 ... but the added cost for DDR2-800 isn't much. As the top official DDR2 memory speed it's a much more likely chance of being useful for your next upgrade. Or if you switch to a 965 motherboard down the line (if a selected 945 motherboard fails out of warranty).
The G.Skill hovers around $205-$210 Shipped at Newegg.

Video Card. Building a new box for gaming on a budget I'd get the X1900XT 256 @ Newegg for @ $215 before the $15 rebate. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814142085 It's basically as fast as you can get without jumping up to the $375-$400 8800GTS. It should more then hold you off till DX10 starts getting used and becomes more affordable. You'll regret it ff you go with less then the X1900XT. 7950GTs are nice too ... but the X1900XT is the best bang for the $$ right now. (Whatever you do ... please don't get less then a 7900GS/X1950Pro/X1900GT ... Even with Core 2 Duo ... Video Card is key.)

Ok lets see where that leaves us on the budget...

$1500 - Budget (With Shipped Prices Before Rebate)
-------------------
$__72 - Ultra Fly mATX Case
$_210 - 2GB G.Skill DDR2-800 Kit
$_220 - X1900XT 256MB
$_ 115 - XP Media Center Edition 2005 (SP2) w/ Vista Upgrade Coupon
-------------------------

$_883 - Remaining Budget
--------------------------

$__62 - In Win 460W Active PFC Power - Don't do 600W+ for a future unknown, standards may change again.
> > > > http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16817374001
> > > > For LAN Parties you NEED Active PFC
> > > > Active PFC will handle the moment the guy next to you fires up or shuts down a 1000W monster.
> > > > Alternatively Cooler Master 450 Active PFC for a few years @ $82 (ignore the power meter)
> > > > http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16817171001

$_225 - Intel Core 2 Duo e6400 (2.1Ghz) - Retail
$__78 - BioStar 945G - It will work and be stable
> > > > http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813138048
> > > > Alternatively for the most current chip set ... $115 - Gigabyte G965 mATX Board (Has some over clocking.)
> > > > http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813128024
----------------------


$_518 - Remaining Budget
----------------------
- Hard Drive - Don't skimp here ... you don't want to load a LAN box with too many hard drives.
- ?Monitor? - 20" Wide is a good LAN screen size and price point. Don't be like me and annoy everyone around you with a 27"
- Nice Gaming Mouse - It's for gaming right? ... don't get a $5 POS
- Head Phones w/mic - It's for gaming right?
- Mouse Pad - It's for gaming right?
- DVD - Don't over spend ... these fail/ware-out, make it cheep to replace.
- Keyboard - To each their own here.

Money left over?
I'd...
... Is it enough upgrade to 8800GTS?
... Upgrade to the Nice Thermaltake LAN Box.
... Upgrade to the better motherboard.
... Upgrade to the E6600. (Or just save)

The one problem I have right now with mATX is that there are no P965 mATX boards. A nice mATX P965 board could get a nice overclock. Everything is G965 which has a MUCH lower FSB ceiling. So, for LAN gaming using C2D, I've been recommending people use the Gigabyte-P965-S3 (or -DS3) in a mid tower ... (or even http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16811119098 if they like a nice handle).

Hope this helps!

 

[imported_Shakespeare]

Originally posted by: Brainonska511
Don't get the DDR2 800 if you plan on using a 945 chipseted board. The 945 chipset can use RAM up to a speed of DDR2 667. You can get this Kingston 2GB kit for $180 instead of paying $200 for the DDR2 800 that would either clock back to 667 in the board you chose or not work at all: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16820134046

Doh! If I wanted to get the best MB and Memory now (Spending priority on those items), and upgrade CPU and Video later, I take it the 945 Chipset is not the best choice. Sigh, I'm already behind again after only a few months of not reading up!

What chipset / MB and RAM can anyone recommend?

TIA

Check Six,
Shakespeare

 

[VooDooAddict]

Originally posted by: Shakespeare

Originally posted by: Brainonska511
Don't get the DDR2 800 if you plan on using a 945 chipseted board. The 945 chipset can use RAM up to a speed of DDR2 667. You can get this Kingston 2GB kit for $180 instead of paying $200 for the DDR2 800 that would either clock back to 667 in the board you chose or not work at all: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16820134046

Doh! If I wanted to get the best MB and Memory now (Spending priority on those items), and upgrade CPU and Video later, I take it the 945 Chipset is not the best choice. Sigh, I'm already behind again after only a few months of not reading up!

What chipset / MB and RAM can anyone recommend?

Mentioned above in my list...
$115 - Gigabyte G965 mATX Board.
It even has some over clocking in the most recent BIOS.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813128024

 

[imported_Shakespeare]

Originally posted by: VooDooAddict
If this is a LAN gaming box; Budget the 2GB of RAM and the Video card FIRST.

For my initial video, I'm going to wait to sink money into a DX10 card early fall, so I think I'll just plug a $100 GT7600 card in for the initial build.

Originally posted by: VooDooAddict
- ?Monitor? - 20" Wide is a good LAN screen size and price point. Don't be like me and annoy everyone around you with a 27"

Almost in your class, I currently use a 24" FPW display.

Originally posted by: VooDooAddict
The one problem I have right now with mATX is that there are no P965 mATX boards. A nice mATX P965 board could get a nice overclock. Everything is G965 which has a MUCH lower FSB ceiling. So, for LAN gaming using C2D, I've been recommending people use the Gigabyte-P965-S3 (or -DS3) in a mid tower ... (or even http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16811119098 if they like a nice handle).

I just noticed that looking around. I also see a disclaimer for the Intel and Asus G965 boards that only 1.8V, CAS 5 or 6 memory is supported!

I'm looking at :

MB: ASUS P5B-VM LGA 775 Intel G965 Express Micro ATX Intel Motherboard - Retail
-Support only 1.8v, CAS 5 memory?

and

Memory: Kingston Technology KVR800D2N5K2/2G 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit KVR800D2N5K2/2G - OEM

without shipping and the inevitable nic-nacs (missing cable, thermal grease. etc.), I'm around $1250 now, but my choices are still fluid and I'm trying to get my head around the choices, the options, and future upgrade paths. [Ugh! ]

Thanks for the input!

Check Six,
Shakespeare

 

[VooDooAddict]

Originally posted by: Shakespeare

Originally posted by: VooDooAddict
If this is a LAN gaming box; Budget the 2GB of RAM and the Video card FIRST.

For my initial video, I'm going to wait to sink money into a DX10 card early fall, so I think I'll just plug a $100 GT7600 card in for the initial build.

Originally posted by: VooDooAddict
- ?Monitor? - 20" Wide is a good LAN screen size and price point. Don't be like me and annoy everyone around you with a 27"

Almost in your class, I currently use a 24" FPW display.

You are beyond me on the monitor ... my poorly 27" maxes out at 1280x720 in most games. That 24" is what 1920x1200?

Did you want to game at that res? If so .. I stick by my recommendation of an X1900XT or 7950GT as a first budgeted item after the RAM

 

[imported_Shakespeare]

OK, home stretch (I hope)!

Here's where our discussions have brought me:

• Case: ThermalTake VF1000BWA LANBOX mATX Desktop Case-Black
  Hard Drive: Seagate Barracuda ES ST3320620NS 320GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive - OEM
  KBM: Microsoft Comfort Curve 2000 B2L-00047 Black USB Mouse Included - OEM
  Memory: Kingston Technology KVR800D2N5K2/2G (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 800 Dual Channel - OEM
  Motherboard: ASUS P5B-VM LGA 775 Intel G965 Express Micro ATX Intel Motherboard - Retail
  Network: Integrated Realtek PCI-E Gigabit LAN controller
  Optical Drive: LG 18X DVD+R
  Power Supply: Thermaltake 600W W0129RU
  Processor: Intel Core 2 Duo E6400 (2.13GHz 2MB Shared)-Retail
  Sound Card: Integrated ADI AD1988 8-channel High Definition Audio
  Video Card: SAPPHIRE 100186L Radeon X1950XT 256MB GDDR3 VIVO HDCP- Retail
  OS: Vista Home Premium

Total before S&H: $1370

Questions:
I chose the ASUS Mothboard for the G965 and the seperation of the PCI-E x16 and x1 slots. The MB has a disclaimer stating that only 1.8v CAS 5 or 6 memory is supported. If I choose a lower CAS, higher voltage memory, like: Patriot eXtreme Performance 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) [CAS 4 2.2V], will it run on this board?

In a year and a half if I upgrade this MB, the Patriot is a better RAM than my chosen Kingston due to its lower CAS, correct?

TIA, again!

Check Six,
Shakespeare

 

[VooDooAddict]

Originally posted by: Shakespeare
Questions:
I chose the ASUS Mothboard for the G965 and the seperation of the PCI-E x16 and x1 slots. The MB has a disclaimer stating that only 1.8v CAS 5 or 6 memory is supported. If I choose a lower CAS, higher voltage memory, like: Patriot eXtreme Performance 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) [CAS 4 2.2V], will it run on this board?

In a year and a half if I upgrade this MB, the Patriot is a better RAM than my chosen Kingston due to its lower CAS, correct?

The disclaimer is probably due to the fact that the board might not boot the first time with RAM that requires high voltage to function at it's SPD timings. This has been an issue with both P965 and G965 boards. Some motherboards have had BIOS updates to correct this.

Because of this issue, I've only been recommending RAM for 965 systems that will run at DDR2-800 5-5-5-12 between 1.8v-1.9v on boot. Then you can adjust timings and voltage later if desired. While lower timings on RAM will improve performance ... the difference in cost for RAM that will run CAS 4 doesn't seem justified. Unless you are an extreme overclocker/benchmarker it's probably money better spent on Video, HD space, or CPU speed grade (or just kept in your pocket).

 

[imported_Shakespeare]

With the MB I've chosen, I'm going to stay with the 1.8v, CAS 5 memory even though UI've found highly rated 2.2v CAS 4 that is is cheaper (even before its rebate!).

I have a penny for more thoughts or someone can throw their $.02 in (Does that mean I have an extra $.03 for this build? ).

TIA

Check Six,
Shakespeare

 

[Zap]

When I see threads like this I always have to chime in with my gaming rig.

15 pounds
13.5" tall x 5.75" wide x 14.5" deep

Current specs:
A64 4000+ @3.12GHz
2GB Patriot CAS 2
400GB Seagate SATA
DVDRW
Enermax 320W SFX PSU with 24A +12v
Biostar Tforce6100-939 board
AMD quad heatpipe HSF/Thermaltake Starforce fan
7900GTX video
aluminum case
lights and bling

Here's my Ultra MicroFly gaming rig

It isn't as portable as the other one at 21 pounds, plus is kind of bulky to try carrying because the squarish shape doesn't lend itself to being carried under one arm. The carrying handle on the faceplate isn't to be trusted and the sides/top are three separate panels. Sides are held on by top, which is held on by one thumbscrew. It... feels kind of flimsy, which doesn't inspire confidence.

 

[VooDooAddict]

Nice Micro Zap. The Enermax PS treating you well? I got sick of those size PS units going and moved things to MicroFly's and X-QPacks. (Actually working on a small Mod to give them a little more breathing room... but due to moving during the month of Feb I probably won't have time for it till March )

The MicroFly's fit into medium sized duffel bags pretty well.

 

[Zap]

The Enermax PS treating you well?

I've had the Enermax 270W and 320W SFX units, and both have been solid. My 270W was an older model which was 20 pin only and weaker on the +12v rail (IIRC around 16A). I was running it with an Opteron 144 and Radeon X850XT for a while. Worked great but 3 problems:

1) Tough to get stable overclock on CPU, voltages would go haywire
2) Video card dumping a lot of heat into system (even with outside exhaust)
3) System made some strange whining noise

I fixed all three by getting rid of the Radeon and using a GF 7900GT at the time. I think the system was just drawing so much power that the PSU was running at max already. Still, it did run for several months like that. After that I ended up swapping for a modern Fortron 300W unit (22.5A combined on dual +12v) and could overclock even higher on that Opteron (2.7GHz). Then, saw the 320W and got it, just 'cause.

So yeah, the Enermax (and Fortron) worked well. Don't know about the others but the Enermax 270W was really solid right up to the edge. Thing weighs a lot too for its size, "usually" an indication of quality in a PSU.

 

[imported_Shakespeare]

Alea Lacta Est

Now I need to clear the decks for the 17th to put it all together!