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Seymour Hersh unloads on Bush and the neocons

conjur

No Lifer
?There has never been an American army as violent and murderous as the one in Iraq?
http://www.mcgilldaily.com/view.php?aid=5450
?The bad news,? investigative reporter Seymour Hersh told a Montreal audience last Wednesday, ?is that there are 816 days left in the reign of King George II of America.?
The good news? ?When we wake up tomorrow morning, there will be one less day.?
Hersh, a Pulitzer-prize winning journalist and regular contributor to The New Yorker magazine, has been a thorn in the side of the U.S. government for nearly 40 years. Since his 1969 exposé of the My Lai massacre in Vietnam, which is widely believed to have helped turn American public opinion against the Vietnam War, he has broken news about the secret U.S. bombing of Cambodia, covert C.I.A. attempts to overthrow Chilean president Salvador Allende, and, more recently, the first details about American soldiers abusing prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq.

During his hour-and-a-half lecture ? part of the launch of an interdisciplinary media and communications studies program called Media@McGill ? Hersh described video footage depicting U.S. atrocities in Iraq, which he had viewed, but not yet published a story about.
He described one video in which American soldiers massacre a group of people playing soccer.

?Three U.S. armed vehicles, eight soldiers in each, are driving through a village, passing candy out to kids,? he began. ?Suddenly the first vehicle explodes, and there are soldiers screaming. Sixteen soldiers come out of the other vehicles, and they do what they?re told to do, which is look for running people.?

?Never mind that the bomb was detonated by remote control,? Hersh continued. ?[The soldiers] open up fire; [the] cameras show it was a soccer game.?

?About ten minutes later, [the soldiers] begin dragging bodies together, and they drop weapons there. It was reported as 20 or 30 insurgents killed that day,? he said.

If Americans knew the full extent of U.S. criminal conduct, they would receive returning Iraqi veterans as they did Vietnam veterans, Hersh said.

?In Vietnam, our soldiers came back and they were reviled as baby killers, in shame and humiliation,? he said. ?It isn?t happening now, but I will tell you ? there has never been an [American] army as violent and murderous as our army has been in Iraq.?

Hersh came out hard against President Bush for his involvement in the Middle East.
?In Washington, you can?t expect any rationality. I don?t know if he?s in Iraq because God told him to, because his father didn?t do it, or because it?s the next step in his 12-step Alcoholics Anonymous program,? he said.

Hersh hinted that the responsibility for the invasion of Iraq lies with eight or nine members of the administration who have a ?neo-conservative agenda? and dictate the U.S.?s post-September 11 foreign policy.

?You have a collapsed Congress, you have a collapsed press. The military is going to do what the President wants,? Hersh said. ?How fragile is democracy in America, if a president can come in with an agenda controlled by a few cultists??

Throughout his talk Hersh remained pessimistic, predicting that the U.S. will initiate an attack against Iran, and that the situation in Iraq will deteriorate further.

?There?s no reason to see a change in policy about Iraq. [Bush] thinks that, in twenty years, he?s going to be recognized for the leader he was ? the analogy he uses is Churchill,? Hersh said. ?If you read the public statements of the leadership, they?re so confident and so calm?. It?s pretty scary.?

I remember when Hersh was on The Daily Show just a couple days before the 2004 election. He said he was "scared" of what Bush would end up doing if he was re-elected.

Well, since then we've seen Iraq turn into a murderous frenzy. US troops dying at a frightenly increasing pace lately. Money hemmoraghing out of the printing presses. North Korea now detonating nukes. Iran moving closer to having nukes. Osama bin Laden and al-Zawarihi still on the loose. and plenty more...

Hersh was right to have been scared.
 
Let's see the video. I'm not saying it didn't happen, but let's have some proof. Not that lack of evidence would ever stand in the way of a good Bush bash.
 
Originally posted by: conjur
Hersh was right to have been scared.
yes but, he, like you, is scared of the wrong people.

Murderers? Anyone who says that about our military as a whole can go f*ck themselves.
 
How would soldiers know at the time of an explosion that the bomb was remote controlled? If Hersh was there; did he know or was this some after the fact reporting that was given to him for editorializing?

If the story is true, the soldiers were doing a good deed and then they get punished for it.
 
Originally posted by: fitzov
Not that lack of evidence would ever stand in the way of a good Bush bash.

No amount of anti-Bush evidence will convince his loyal followers of anything.

how is calling our entire military a collection of murderous psychopaths considered "anti-Bush"?!?

Hersh, and anyone who truly believes this is true of the military (Kerry?), can go to hell.

g'damn traitors.
 
Hersh, and anyone who truly believes this is true of the military (Kerry?), can go to hell.

Any sodier who knowingly violates the Constitution is unfit for the uniform--that is to what their allegiance lies first and foremost, not the Commander in Chief.
 
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: fitzov
Not that lack of evidence would ever stand in the way of a good Bush bash.

No amount of anti-Bush evidence will convince his loyal followers of anything.

how is calling our entire military a collection of murderous psychopaths considered "anti-Bush"?!?

Hersh, and anyone who truly believes this is true of the military (Kerry?), can go to hell.

g'damn traitors.

What branch did you retire from?
 
Originally posted by: fitzov
Not that lack of evidence would ever stand in the way of a good Bush bash.

No amount of anti-Bush evidence will convince his loyal followers of anything.
That may be true, but it's still not evidence of any wrongdoing. So let's see it. Or don't you have anything useful to say?
 
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: fitzov
Not that lack of evidence would ever stand in the way of a good Bush bash.

No amount of anti-Bush evidence will convince his loyal followers of anything.

how is calling our entire military a collection of murderous psychopaths considered "anti-Bush"?!?

Hersh, and anyone who truly believes this is true of the military (Kerry?), can go to hell.

g'damn traitors.

I'm not sure who you remind me more of capt. underoos, Jack Blacks character in Mars attacks or his father, Joe Don Baker. The mindset of the gung-ho, uhmericah's always right, our military makes us cooler than Uganda... It's just pathetic. You don't know everyone in uniform, so stop speaking for all of them, the close group you supposedly work with, may even have some secrets from you. Shocking, isn't it?
We all know how you idolize the military, and some of us even believe you're a part of it, but to call someone a traitor that easily? Maybe you should point that finger towards 1600 Pennsylvania ave.. many, many traitors housed in there right now.
 
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: fitzov
Not that lack of evidence would ever stand in the way of a good Bush bash.

No amount of anti-Bush evidence will convince his loyal followers of anything.
That may be true, but it's still not evidence of any wrongdoing. So let's see it. Or don't you have anything useful to say?

I dont think the US military wants this video to be relased to the general public
 
Originally posted by: Czar
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: fitzov
Not that lack of evidence would ever stand in the way of a good Bush bash.

No amount of anti-Bush evidence will convince his loyal followers of anything.
That may be true, but it's still not evidence of any wrongdoing. So let's see it. Or don't you have anything useful to say?

I dont think the US military wants this video to be relased to the general public
The video could also be faked and/or torn apart. Look at the fiasco created with the "FOB Falcon" and some of the Arab footages w/ respect to the Palestinians.

It is easier to build on your reputation if the backgrouind evidence is suspect.

 
Without seeing any physical proof whatsoever from the incident or witness testimony, Hersh's tirade is completely worthless.

The man has played fast and loose with the truth in the past in order to create sensation and lacks even a superficial veneer of objectivity that a reporter is supposed have in good supply.
 
Originally posted by: Czar
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: fitzov
Not that lack of evidence would ever stand in the way of a good Bush bash.

No amount of anti-Bush evidence will convince his loyal followers of anything.
That may be true, but it's still not evidence of any wrongdoing. So let's see it. Or don't you have anything useful to say?

I dont think the US military wants this video to be relased to the general public

Does that surprise you? Fact is, if Hersh saw it, it exists in some form that is available to somebody outside the military. So where is it?
 
Originally posted by: K1052
Without seeing any physical proof whatsoever from the incident or witness testimony, Hersh's tirade is completely worthless.

The man has played fast and loose with the truth in the past in order to create sensation and lacks even a superficial veneer of objectivity that a reporter is supposed have in good supply.
Uh...yeah....right.

Hersh is about the only real journalist left out there. His exasperation and frustration with this administration and the lapdog media is very evident.

He's also seen the Abu Ghraib footage and knows what's in there that we still don't.


And, to you, Mr. Counterstrike, Hersh is not labeling the entire military. That's just more of your keyboard commando knee-jerk reactions. Have you bothered to read Chain of Command?
 
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Does that surprise you? Fact is, if Hersh saw it, it exists in some form that is available to somebody outside the military. So where is it?
Not necessarily. Hersh saw the Abu Ghraib footage 2 1/2 years ago and it still hasn't been made public as the war criminals in Washington are still fighting its release.
 
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Does that surprise you? Fact is, if Hersh saw it, it exists in some form that is available to somebody outside the military. So where is it?
Not necessarily. Hersh saw the Abu Ghraib footage 2 1/2 years ago and it still hasn't been made public as the war criminals in Washington are still fighting its release.

Let me add that Donald Rumsfeld himself has been quoted as saying that the video was truly horrific. So did several members of Congress as well.
 
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: K1052
Without seeing any physical proof whatsoever from the incident or witness testimony, Hersh's tirade is completely worthless.

The man has played fast and loose with the truth in the past in order to create sensation and lacks even a superficial veneer of objectivity that a reporter is supposed have in good supply.
Uh...yeah....right.

Hersh is about the only real journalist left out there. His exasperation and frustration with this administration and the lapdog media is very evident.

He's also seen the Abu Ghraib footage and knows what's in there that we still don't.


And, to you, Mr. Counterstrike, Hersh is not labeling the entire military. That's just more of your keyboard commando knee-jerk reactions. Have you bothered to read Chain of Command?

So if Hersh walked in to my office right now and told me the sky was brown but wouldn't let me go outside to confirm it and offered no physical proof that his claim was true, I should just agree and run off to tell others?

Is what he claimed possible? Yes, though very unlikely in my opinion. Without proof of ANY kind (as of yet) available to us to support his claim his statements are indeed worthless. If something tangible surfaces then it is certainly worthy of further review.
 
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: K1052
Without seeing any physical proof whatsoever from the incident or witness testimony, Hersh's tirade is completely worthless.

The man has played fast and loose with the truth in the past in order to create sensation and lacks even a superficial veneer of objectivity that a reporter is supposed have in good supply.
Uh...yeah....right.

Hersh is about the only real journalist left out there. His exasperation and frustration with this administration and the lapdog media is very evident.

He's also seen the Abu Ghraib footage and knows what's in there that we still don't.


And, to you, Mr. Counterstrike, Hersh is not labeling the entire military. That's just more of your keyboard commando knee-jerk reactions. Have you bothered to read Chain of Command?

Are you intentionally obtuse?

If Americans knew the full extent of U.S. criminal conduct, they would receive returning Iraqi veterans as they did Vietnam veterans, Hersh said.

?In Vietnam, our soldiers came back and they were reviled as baby killers, in shame and humiliation,? he said. ?It isn?t happening now, but I will tell you ? there has never been an [American] army as violent and murderous as our army has been in Iraq.?

Not labeling the entire military eh?
Did Jon Carrey and him go to the same school of comedy or something?
 
Throughout his talk Hersh remained pessimistic, predicting that the U.S. will initiate an attack against Iran, and that the situation in Iraq will deteriorate further.

lmao we are still waiting Hershy, what was it June of 05 we were supposed to attack?

What a douchebag.

 
Anyone who calls our troops "murderers" should have no respect or have their comments taken seriously. Thats on the verge of treason in my book.
 
Why does everyone think that we can't call our troops murderers? Is it our national policy in Iraq to murder civilians? Of course not. Why should you not be able to say that our troops are murderers when they have clearly murdered civilians in the past, and will certainly do so again? (for every report that gets out, there are probably a hundred that don't.)

Stop putting topics off limits. You only serve to delude yourself, and America doesn't need any more blind jingoists. Our troops aren't heroes. They signed up out of self interest, for a paycheck, healthcare, and "$30,000 for college!1!oneone!!" not to Defend Freedom and Justice. I never met ONE person in my entire time in the military who signed up to defend democracy. Not ONE.

Do you really think people can exist in a place for months and years where they are attacked every day by people they can't see, watch their friends die right in front of them, have the civilians watching laugh about it, and not expect things like that to happen? This can and would happen to anyone... probably you, and definitely me. The average American soldier on patrol in Iraq is not exactly the cream of the American crap either which doesn't help.

Let me repeat: Of course these things are happening. These soldiers are being placed in an unreasonable situation. I don't blame them, because in their situation I would probably end up doing the same thing, however horrible that is. I blame the people who put them there.

Seymour Hersh has shown time and time again that he has the access and trust of people in the military. He was right about My Lai, he was right about Abu Ghraib. It's not possible to tell if he was right about plans to attack Iran, because that is more predictive then reporting. Looks like he was right about Iraq deteriorating though. He's a credit to America's journalistic tradition, and maybe the last investigative journalist we have.
 
I don't know all the facts surrounding this incident or many others that don't get front page coverage but I don't blame the military for any of this stuff. I believe the soldiers do what they are told, if they are told to start shooting at people running after they are hit by an IED, then that's what they do. Perhaps they need to change the ROE, but I'd willing to bet that comes from the very top.

Some people may not buy that, but I don't think our soldiers are trained to handle these types of situations properly and the emotional toll must be enormous, not knowing who is the enemy and who isn't, hidden attackers that vanish. That's got to be enormously frustrating and the human mind can only take so much before some kind of emotional response is unleashed. I firmly believe that is what caused the atrocities in Vietnam and is the same cause for what may be going on in Iraq now.

The US Army and Marines are not policemen, they are trained to respond to violence with overwhelming violence and going out on patrol everyday for the sole purpose of drawing fire is a fubar mission, and after months of the same crap, losing good buddies along the way, these things are going to happen.

In either case, it's the Administration that has put them in this position and for my part, they are solely to blame.
 
"...Three U.S. armed vehicles, eight soldiers in each, are driving through a village, passing candy out to kids,? he began. ?Suddenly the first vehicle explodes, and there are soldiers screaming. Sixteen soldiers come out of the other vehicles, and they do what they?re told to do, which is look for running people.?

?Never mind that the bomb was detonated by remote control,? Hersh continued. ?[The soldiers] open up fire; [the] cameras show it was a soccer game.?

?About ten minutes later, [the soldiers] begin dragging bodies together, and they drop weapons there. It was reported as 20 or 30 insurgents killed that day,? he said..."
--------------------------------------------------------

JFC what a mess. Mission accomplished.
 
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Stop putting topics off limits. You only serve to delude yourself, and America doesn't need any more blind jingoists. Our troops aren't heroes. They signed up out of self interest, for a paycheck, healthcare, and "$30,000 for college!1!oneone!!" not to Defend Freedom and Justice. I never met ONE person in my entire time in the military who signed up to defend democracy. Not ONE.
I didn't need money, a free education, healthcare, or a paycheck (I make MUCH more as a civilian than I do while on active duty!). I signed up at age 17 to serve my country just as my Father did, and my Grandfather before him. I did it to be a part of something amazing that would further cement in my character the discipline and other values required to succeed in life. So, now you've met someone who signed up for the reasons you dismiss. I'm very sorry that you never met a single soldier who feels as I do because I've had the pleasure of serving with too many to count!

Perhaps you are just assuming that everyone signed up for the same shallow reason you did? I think you'd be suprised to know the reality...

The average American soldier on patrol in Iraq is not exactly the cream of the American crap either which doesn't help.
you have no idea just how completely wrong you are.

The last thing I'd like to point out is the our standard operating procedures, when hit by an IED, NEVER include pouring out of our vehicles. The story loses most of its credibility right there.

I have seen more restraint practiced by our troops, in similar IED situations, than most of you could ever imagine. We never intentionally fired on unarmed civilians... not once during the entire year I was in combat.
 
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