Seymour Hersh unloads on Bush and the neocons

[fskimospy]

First of all, there is a difference between what someone says when they are asked a leading question or otherwise know what answer is expected of them, and the real reason for joining.

There is a reason why military advertising promotes money for college, self improvement, respect of your peers, etc. far far more then it does the defense of democracy... and it isn't because they can't come up with any good ad slogans for the latter. Are there some out there that do it for love of country? I don't doubt it. Maybe you're even one of them. Is that why your average soldier is there? Oh god no...and I've met thousands and thousands of them. My experience isn't what tells me I'm right though, it is how the military itself behaves in recruiting. They do what works, and love of country isn't it.

I think we already established in another thread that people in the military are not A+ students. They are there for a reason. And no... that Heritage Foundation "report" is not peer reviewed, or in any way academically reliable.

You are mistaking your isolated experience in Iraq as somehow indicative of the army in Iraq as a whole. This is a logical fallacy. Just like you can't blame all soldiers for one being bad, you can't commend all soldiers for one being good. In Vietnam the vast majority of US soldiers behaved admirably in impossible circumstances. That being said, I don't know a single responsible person that would say that US troops committed no atrocities there. The same holds true for Iraq. That's great that your unit didn't fire on unarmed civilians. Hopefully they serve as an example. To think that no units have is pretty delusional though. (also, god only knows how many innocent people have been killed unintentionally and the circumstances lied about)

Finally, if this video happens to be true... then what the army SOP happens to be for an IED attack is pretty irrelevant. I doubt that "after IED attack, kill all nearby soccer players" is in the manual either.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: ayabe
I don't know all the facts surrounding this incident or many others that don't get front page coverage but I don't blame the military for any of this stuff. I believe the soldiers do what they are told, if they are told to start shooting at people running after they are hit by an IED, then that's what they do. Perhaps they need to change the ROE, but I'd willing to bet that comes from the very top.

Some people may not buy that, but I don't think our soldiers are trained to handle these types of situations properly and the emotional toll must be enormous, not knowing who is the enemy and who isn't, hidden attackers that vanish. That's got to be enormously frustrating and the human mind can only take so much before some kind of emotional response is unleashed. I firmly believe that is what caused the atrocities in Vietnam and is the same cause for what may be going on in Iraq now.

The US Army and Marines are not policemen, they are trained to respond to violence with overwhelming violence and going out on patrol everyday for the sole purpose of drawing fire is a fubar mission, and after months of the same crap, losing good buddies along the way, these things are going to happen.

In either case, it's the Administration that has put them in this position and for my part, they are solely to blame.

Agree 100%. If put in a similar situation I, and I suspect most here, would end up doing the same things. Despite, or perhaps because of, all the training and discipline, soldiers are still human beings who can react irrationally under stress. Sometimes you have to call a spade a spade, but at the same time you need to realize that under the right circumstances Good Men/Women will do Evil things.

How many more examples of this do we need before we can admit that?

 

[Lemon law]

The point is that when you put US troops--or any nations troops for that matter---in a life and death situation---they quite naturally react to protect themselves.
Its one thing for us keyboard warriors to sit back calmly looking at the situation and saying 20-20 hindsight--the politically correct thing to do was--this that or the
other thing.

And when we put our troops in Iraq---and its a totally alien culture with different languages and customs---such events will become all to readily the norm.

With our troops and the native inhabitants being wedged apart as a result.

Something that we had better start to understand---and something our clueless leaders who never served in combat can't seem to grasp---we are not connecting with the very people
we are supposed to be saving----and without that connection---we will inevitably lose the peace.

Most of out troops are sent forth on a year or so tour of duty---and often come back emotionally shattered even if unwounded---for the Iraqi people there is no such R&R---and they have been living this dread now for 3.5 years---and some 655,000 of them have died.

Gee ain't war grand----but one thing about television---it can't yet bring the reality of nose---the stench of burned bodies to our living rooms---even though the blood is red.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: TravisT
Anyone who calls our troops "murderers" should have no respect or have their comments taken seriously. Thats on the verge of treason in my book.

What kind of stupid-ass, goose stepping attitude is that? Obviously it's wrong to try and drag down the reputations of people who have done nothing other than serve our country honorably, but if they ARE doing something wrong, they deserve to get called on it just like anyone else. Soldiers are not magical super-humans above any kind of reproach, our respect and admiration for them should hinge on their behavior. If it's honorable, hell yes they should be treated with respect, and if it's NOT, damn sure they should be called on it.

I tend to think Hersh's comments are not quite as factual as he'd like us to believe, but this "no one can dare question anything our soldiers do" attitude is stupid, and far more "treasonous" than approaching the issue in a reasonable manner. At least in THIS country, you might find more acceptance of your ideas in China.

 

[Genx87]

I think we already established in another thread that people in the military are not A+ students. They are there for a reason. And no... that Heritage Foundation "report" is not peer reviewed, or in any way academically reliable.

Stick your head in the sand to make yourself feel better. Here is a clue, the avg joe in this country isnt A+ either. But I am sure you gobble up this two bit hacks propaganda hand over fist right?

Gobble gobble where can I feed myself more propganda heir seymour hersh?

You are mistaking your isolated experience in Iraq as somehow indicative of the army in Iraq as a whole. This is a logical fallacy. Just like you can't blame all soldiers for one being bad, you can't commend all soldiers for one being good. In Vietnam the vast majority of US soldiers behaved admirably in impossible circumstances. That being said, I don't know a single responsible person that would say that US troops committed no atrocities there. The same holds true for Iraq. That's great that your unit didn't fire on unarmed civilians. Hopefully they serve as an example. To think that no units have is pretty delusional though. (also, god only knows how many innocent people have been killed unintentionally and the circumstances lied about)

And you know better because you have spent time there? The problem isnt that it is being labeled an isolated incident by the author, he is painting the entire military with the atrocity brush.

This is something you seem unable or unwilling to comprehend.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Genx87

I think we already established in another thread that people in the military are not A+ students. They are there for a reason. And no... that Heritage Foundation "report" is not peer reviewed, or in any way academically reliable.

Stick your head in the sand to make yourself feel better. Here is a clue, the avg joe in this country isnt A+ either. But I am sure you gobble up this two bit hacks propaganda hand over fist right?

Gobble gobble where can I feed myself more propganda heir seymour hersh?

You are mistaking your isolated experience in Iraq as somehow indicative of the army in Iraq as a whole. This is a logical fallacy. Just like you can't blame all soldiers for one being bad, you can't commend all soldiers for one being good. In Vietnam the vast majority of US soldiers behaved admirably in impossible circumstances. That being said, I don't know a single responsible person that would say that US troops committed no atrocities there. The same holds true for Iraq. That's great that your unit didn't fire on unarmed civilians. Hopefully they serve as an example. To think that no units have is pretty delusional though. (also, god only knows how many innocent people have been killed unintentionally and the circumstances lied about)

And you know better because you have spent time there? The problem isnt that it is being labeled an isolated incident by the author, he is painting the entire military with the atrocity brush.

This is something you seem unable or unwilling to comprehend.

While I agree with the idea that the entire army shouldn't be painted with the same brush, one of the reasons people like Hersh are credible doing so is because of the reaction a lot of people have to the isolated incidents. Rather than suggest that maybe it WAS a bad thing that happened and the people involved should be held to account is some way, the popular attitude is to ignore it and attack anyone who brings it up. This tends to support the idea that it's more widespread than it really is. Now I'm not saying soldiers who do things wrong AREN'T held to account by military courts, but the popular attitude is that they can do no wrong...supporting soldiers who do good things and going after the ones who do bad things is a far more reasonable approach and takes a lot of the weight out of accusations that ALL soldiers are running around doing bad things. In this particular case, the apologists are NOT helping things.

 

[palehorse]

My main point of contention is the exageration and senationalism Hersh used to make the story more dramatic. In doing so, he lost his credibility. He DID say that the entire military in Iraq is murderous and he then went on to imply that atrocities are the norm.

Of course I'm intelligent and cognicant enough to recognize that accidents and the occasional sociopathic event do happen; but it is completely unforgiveable to paint our entire military with that brush.

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: Rainsford
While I agree with the idea that the entire army shouldn't be painted with the same brush, one of the reasons people like Hersh are credible doing so is because of the reaction a lot of people have to the isolated incidents. Rather than suggest that maybe it WAS a bad thing that happened and the people involved should be held to account is some way, the popular attitude is to ignore it and attack anyone who brings it up. This tends to support the idea that it's more widespread than it really is. Now I'm not saying soldiers who do things wrong AREN'T held to account by military courts, but the popular attitude is that they can do no wrong...supporting soldiers who do good things and going after the ones who do bad things is a far more reasonable approach and takes a lot of the weight out of accusations that ALL soldiers are running around doing bad things. In this particular case, the apologists are NOT helping things.

And neither are the knee-jerking, generalizing left.

If liberals are still confused about why that people aren't falling over themselves to get away from the right wing, they need to look in the mirror. The left in this country is a black or white, us and them, for us or against us, "Bring it on" as the right are, they just have different targets.

 

[JEDIYoda]

The main point if all this is Hersh is a complete idiot!!!

 

[AutumnRayne]

I love how everyone here tries to make it seem that our soldiers are infallible. They are human and make mistakes just like anyone else. A childhood friend of mine joined the army in 2000, he spent over 2 years in Iraq. When he came back, he was angry. He said that many soldiers over there are irate about being there. They feel they've been sent there to die, and all for lies. Now I'm not suggesting that all soldiers feel this way, however it seems more of them are starting to. Now my friend is being recalled, and he is refusing to go. He said I'd rather spend my life in a military prison, than to go back there and fight this war. This is a huge turnaround for him. His company was one of the first in Iraq, and when he left the first time he was gung ho and ready to fight for our country, believing that Iraq had dangerous WMD. Even after his first deployment, he came home feeling proud, and when he was called back for his second tour of duty he went willingly. However, after his last deployment, he returned a changed man. He's now against the war, and thinks that we have no reason to be there.

 

[Pens1566]

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
The main point if all this is Hersh is a complete idiot!!!

Well now that we've cleared that up, the thread can go away.

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
The main point if all this is Hersh is a complete idiot!!!

Umm...

Hersh, a Pulitzer-prize winning journalist...

Show us your Pulitzer, and maybe we'll give your lame opinion some credibility. :laugh:

 

[Martin]

Originally posted by: BoberFett
Let's see the video. I'm not saying it didn't happen, but let's have some proof. Not that lack of evidence would ever stand in the way of a good Bush bash.

He probably doesn't have it on him, which is why he's just mentioning it in passing, rather than doing a huge article in the New Yorker. This is certainly the first I hear of this, and I'm sure its the same for you.

I agree with you, though it wouldn't surprise me in the least if the video came out tomorrow and it was shown to be true. There are already soldiers convicted for torture and random killings of innocent people, so one has to wonder what kinds of other things have happened that have not been (and perhaps will never be) reported...

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: Rainsford
While I agree with the idea that the entire army shouldn't be painted with the same brush, one of the reasons people like Hersh are credible doing so is because of the reaction a lot of people have to the isolated incidents. Rather than suggest that maybe it WAS a bad thing that happened and the people involved should be held to account is some way, the popular attitude is to ignore it and attack anyone who brings it up. This tends to support the idea that it's more widespread than it really is. Now I'm not saying soldiers who do things wrong AREN'T held to account by military courts, but the popular attitude is that they can do no wrong...supporting soldiers who do good things and going after the ones who do bad things is a far more reasonable approach and takes a lot of the weight out of accusations that ALL soldiers are running around doing bad things. In this particular case, the apologists are NOT helping things.

And neither are the knee-jerking, generalizing left.

If liberals are still confused about why that people aren't falling over themselves to get away from the right wing, they need to look in the mirror. The left in this country is a black or white, us and them, for us or against us, "Bring it on" as the right are, they just have different targets.

Uh, yeah, that's what I was saying. My point was that the knee-jerking, generalizing RIGHT is making the knee-jerking, generalizing LEFT seem more credible by treating the same issues as black and white.

 

[palehorse]

oh, ok, so now a pullitzer prize is enough of a shield to prevent someone from ever being mistaken or becoming an idiot?

Yassir Arifat received a Noble Prize... then went on to support and fund violent acts of terrorism for several years. Are those acts excused or dismissed just because he received a major award prior?

umm, no.

ps: some of us have no problem admitting that there have been some atrocities, and a few sociopaths. That much is obvious. The point where this becomes traitorous is when someone like Hersh paints our entire force in Iraq with that brush.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: palehorse74
My main point of contention is the exageration and senationalism Hersh used to make the story more dramatic. In doing so, he lost his credibility. He DID say that the entire military in Iraq is murderous and he then went on to imply that atrocities are the norm.

Of course I'm intelligent and cognicant enough to recognize that accidents and the occasional sociopathic event do happen; but it is completely unforgiveable to paint our entire military with that brush.

I think even you and I can agree on that point, and given how we seem to DISagree on everything else...that should say something.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: palehorse74
My main point of contention is the exageration and senationalism Hersh used to make the story more dramatic. In doing so, he lost his credibility. He DID say that the entire military in Iraq is murderous and he then went on to imply that atrocities are the norm.

Of course I'm intelligent and cognicant enough to recognize that accidents and the occasional sociopathic event do happen; but it is completely unforgiveable to paint our entire military with that brush.

I think even you and I can agree on that point, and given how we seem to DISagree on everything else...that should say something.

scary! but true! lol..

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
The main point if all this is Hersh is a complete idiot!!!

Umm...

Hersh, a Pulitzer-prize winning journalist...

Show us your Pulitzer, and maybe we'll give your lame opinion some credibility. :laugh:

And Hitler was Times man of the year?

Next...

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
The main point if all this is Hersh is a complete idiot!!!

Umm...

Hersh, a Pulitzer-prize winning journalist...

Show us your Pulitzer, and maybe we'll give your lame opinion some credibility. :laugh:

And Hitler was Times man of the year?

Next...

Er, I'm not sure that's a valid comparison. Time's "man of the year" award is NOT an award for outstanding positive achievement, as is widely believed by many people, it's about an individual who has had the most influence on the last year...good or bad. The Pulitzer, by contrast, is given to a journalist for being an outstanding journalist...not really the same thing.

Although I will agree that winning a Pulitzer doesn't make you immune to mistakes or make your words undeniable truths. Having that kind of viewpoint on ANYONE is rather silly.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
The main point if all this is Hersh is a complete idiot!!!

Umm...

Hersh, a Pulitzer-prize winning journalist...

Show us your Pulitzer, and maybe we'll give your lame opinion some credibility. :laugh:

And Hitler was Times man of the year?

Next...

Er, I'm not sure that's a valid comparison. Time's "man of the year" award is NOT an award for outstanding positive achievement, as is widely believed by many people, it's about an individual who has had the most influence on the last year...good or bad. The Pulitzer, by contrast, is given to a journalist for being an outstanding journalist...not really the same thing.

Although I will agree that winning a Pulitzer doesn't make you immune to mistakes or make your words undeniable truths. Having that kind of viewpoint on ANYONE is rather silly.

It is apples and oranges on the surface.

The point I am trying to make is idiots recieve awards everyday. Just because you managed to con some like minded morons into giving you an award doesnt make you infallible. But I think you kind of understand my argument.

 

[umbrella39]

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
The main point if all this is Hersh is a complete idiot!!!

 

[aidanjm]

if the US soldiers are being attacked and fired upon every day by the insurgents, you can understand how they could get a little bit jumpy and start shooting at anything that moved. anger needs to be directed at rumsfield, cheney and bush, more so than the soldiers on the ground.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
The main point if all this is Hersh is a complete idiot!!!

Umm...

Hersh, a Pulitzer-prize winning journalist...

Show us your Pulitzer, and maybe we'll give your lame opinion some credibility. :laugh:

So what makes you think I am not entitled to my opinion?
stirctly speaking Seymour Hersh is not looked to fondly upon by most Israli`s in the US or abroad or for that matter even in Israel.

You know how political the Pulitizer prize has become over the years??
I am suprised that someboody of youe intellect would even use that as an example of why Seymour should be considered 100% truthful with no agenda`s of his own....

Things that make you go hmmmm

 

[ProfJohn]

Didn?t we go through this once before with some story based on a ?video? someone saw and like this time the video never showed up?
Sounds familiar, might have to look for that story.

All Hersh has to do is show the video. Now that this claim is out there he will get a TON of pressure to put up or shut up. Even writers for the New Yorker can?t accuse American soldiers of cold blooded murder based on video tape evidence and get away with it. Show us the tape.

If Hersh has seen it then others must have too. let's hear from them as well.

 

[fornax]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Didn?t we go through this once before with some story based on a ?video? someone saw and like this time the video never showed up?
Sounds familiar, might have to look for that story.

All Hersh has to do is show the video. Now that this claim is out there he will get a TON of pressure to put up or shut up. Even writers for the New Yorker can?t accuse American soldiers of cold blooded murder based on video tape evidence and get away with it. Show us the tape.

If Hersh has seen it then others must have too. let's hear from them as well.

Of course, "Prof"John conveniently forgets that numerous photos and videos have been under lock by the military, and they have been fighting tooth and nail in the courts against their release. Their arguments: " the world will hate us even more when they see what kind of murderous lowlifes we are". The court ordered the release of some, and if the Pentagon does not appeal to the SC, expect soon some more of "there are only a few bad apples", " we do not torture", "this is not a torture, this is is OK", etc.