Seriously, where do we go from here?

[gothuevos]

David Frum - "If conservatives become convinced that they can not win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. They will reject democracy.”

Look, I know every side throws a fit when they lose an election...but this notion of widespread and sweeping fraud against Trump is now deeply engrained in each and every one of his voters. In other words, half the country is not going to accept the election results. And I don't mean like in 2016 when you had the trendy #notmypresident or whatever, but a more visceral, deep-rooted feeling of having been cheated. Of course Trump planted these seeds several weeks ago with his rhetoric, and here we are. Even many Republican lawmakers are still hesitant to come out and acknowledge the election results.

Initially I was concerned that the barrage of lawsuits from the Trump campaign may find some traction if it got in front of a friendly, partisan judge...but it is clear they have no convincing evidence and are 0-10 in the courts so far. A rational person may say...ok, let them have their say in court, and when it is inevitably shot down, his supporters will (begrudgingly) see the results as valid and move on. Nope. They will likely double down on more conspiracy theories, deep state, etc.

Now you may say it doesn't matter if they don't accept the results, the rule of law and the machine of government marches on. That may be true, but having half your country believe an election was stolen is....not sustainable in terms of keeping a country from falling apart. Maybe their attention spans will be short and they'll just move on in short time - or maybe Trump and/or his surrogates will fan the flames long after the election and keep that part of the electorate simmering. What happens the next time they win the Presidency, or if they get total control as they did in 2016? The voters certainly aren't punishing them as we saw this election at least in congressional seats. 4 years is a long time but Biden is going to be in a tough spot. Back-to-back one term presidents? Is 2024 the year they finally abolish elections? And that's nothing to say of the potential for acts of violence in the short term.

I'm not trying to fearmonger or be overly pessimistic, but how does this trajectory have any happy ending of sorts? Half the country is going to hate the other half for "stealing" an election and doesn't even want to be governed by them in the first place. I'm sure somebody has a good quote about a post-truth world, and here we are.

 

[pmv]

If too many Republicans really manage to convince themselves the election was won by fraud, among other effects, that will presumably lower their own inhibitions about committing electoral fraud themselves in future.

 

[pmv]

Also, it seems in part as if it's another bad concequence of the 2000 farrago. Not only did that lead to the Iraq and Afghanistan disasters, but it also seems to have given the Republicans a taste for settling everything in the courts rather than via voting.

 

[woolfe9998]

Your concerns are valid. A lot of it hinges on the extent to which they really, truly believe this, or whether it is just sort of wishful thinking that is politically convenient in the moment. After 2016, Trump claimed that "millions of illegals voted" because his ego couldn't handle the fact that more people voted for his opponent than him. Then there was a commission which found nothing. I haven't heard the allegation repeated for a couple years.

I suspect there are varying degrees of certainty about these false claims among republicans. Some probably pretend to believe it more than they actually do, while others are utterly convinced to the core of their being.

 

[SmCaudata]

I just saw that 66% of first time voters went for Biden. They will spread the word.

To 80 million (will be close when all done counting) Biden voters, the election was valid. A large block of Trump supporters don't really believe there was fraud.

We still had about 62% turnout, vs 90% in other democracies.

Spread the word. Bring out the vote. Expand voting protections. Democrats can win bigger.


I guess what I'm saying is that who cares what they say? If we can get more dems in office, we can get the country on track. Remember, dems used to own the south and rural vote. In MN it is called the DFL (democratic farmer labor) party. If dems enact their policies, the country will get better for everyone. They will grumble for a few election cycles, maybe a generation. They will come around when things improve.

After that, then we can get back to arguing whether schools should be federally or state funded, because that is where our party differences should be.

 

[brandonbull]

If too many Republicans really manage to convince themselves the election was won by fraud, among other effects, that will presumably lower their own inhibitions about committing electoral fraud themselves in future.

Good thing that the Russians didn't interfere with the presidential election like they did in 2016. It would be a shame for people to think that a foreign power "stole " an election and there by forcing several politicians to promise to impeach the puppet president if elected. Who knows, but we might also have had a scenario where millions of people would constantly be told that election results were fraudulent. Close call.

 

[brycejones]

Good thing that the Russians didn't interfere with the presidential election like they did in 2016. It would be a shame for people to think that a foreign power "stole " an election and there by forcing several politicians to promise to impeach the puppet president if elected. Who knows, but we might also have had a scenario where millions of people would constantly be told that election results were fraudulent. Close call.

Please let us know if you are going to engage with observable reality now that the election is over. From the post above I am not hopeful.

 

[Jaskalas]

A large block of Trump supporters don't really believe there was fraud.

Says who, you seen a poll?
Their alt-reality bubble is in full swing spinning that shit up. Making that story real in the minds of their followers.
Over time that notion is only going to grow.
I bet if we did a poll every week it'd go from 40% to near 100% over the course of the next few months.

 

[SmCaudata]

Good thing that the Russians didn't interfere with the presidential election like they did in 2016. It would be a shame for people to think that a foreign power "stole " an election and there by forcing several politicians to promise to impeach the puppet president if elected. Who knows, but we might also have had a scenario where millions of people would constantly be told that election results were fraudulent. Close call.

No one said Russians stole it. They interfered and used propaganda to influence the vote. Which, frankly has happened for a long time. People were angry with our social media platforms for prioritizing profits over stopping "alternative facts."

The real problem was that the beneficiary in 2016 actively cooperated and assisted said influence. And they tried to do it again in seeking dirt on Biden.

Clearly you seemed to fail to grasp that extremely important nuance. Hopefully I was able to help.

 

[Jaskalas]

I guess what I'm saying is that who cares what they say?

From #fakenews to #fakevotes.... the problem is that this incites stochastic terrorism. They believe the rule of law and that Democracy itself has already fallen. So they think - why not respond in kind? They will want to commit fraud. They will want to break the law. They will want to break our Democracy. And not just small acts within our system. I am talking acts of open rebellion / violence.

Telling people our government is not legitimate is to call for blood. And that is what Trump and his alt-reality bubble is whipping up right now.

You'll care what they say when they follow it up with action.

 

[SmCaudata]

Says who, you seen a poll?
Their alt-reality bubble is in full swing spinning that shit up. Making that story real in the minds of their followers.
Over time that notion is only going to grow.
I bet if we did a poll every week it'd go from 40% to near 100% over the course of the next few months.

There are still many Republicans like Romney, Bush, McCain, ect that don't buy into the fraud claim and never will. It honestly only needs to be 20% or so that don't buy into the fraud for dems to run.

The flip side is maybe all this fraud talk will convince those clowns to not vote because it's "rigged".

 

[MrSquished]

Good thing that the Russians didn't interfere with the presidential election like they did in 2016. It would be a shame for people to think that a foreign power "stole " an election and there by forcing several politicians to promise to impeach the puppet president if elected. Who knows, but we might also have had a scenario where millions of people would constantly be told that election results were fraudulent. Close call.

It's apparent your little tiny pea sized brain can't understand the difference between foreign influence/interference via propaganda and political dirt creation directedtowards feeble minded pathetic folks suck as yourself, vs actual conspiratorial voter fraud.

Can you walk and chew gum at the same time?

 

[pmv]

Good thing that the Russians didn't interfere with the presidential election like they did in 2016. It would be a shame for people to think that a foreign power "stole " an election and there by forcing several politicians to promise to impeach the puppet president if elected. Who knows, but we might also have had a scenario where millions of people would constantly be told that election results were fraudulent. Close call.

Not sure what your point is, beneath the passive-aggressive snark.

Personally I've always felt a little cynical about the Russian-interference stuff. Though I'm sure they meddled, and Putin is clearly a gangster, I can't help but see some irony in it all, given how relentlessly the US has interfered in elections all over the world, and in particular how much the US did to help bring Putin to power in the first place. Both Reagan and Clinton separately did their bit to bring Putinism into this world and make it the force it is. Furthermore the US system's weaknesses, that the Russians attempted to exploit, are the responsibility of the US.

But what can you do? Politics is a sordid business and the elites always screw things up as they pursue their self-interest, whatever the party label. Right now though the boot is on the other foot, and the Republicans are the 'useful idiots' of the Kremlin. At this moment there is clearly a big difference between the two parties.

 

[fskimospy]

David Frum - "If conservatives become convinced that they can not win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. They will reject democracy.”

Look, I know every side throws a fit when they lose an election...but this notion of widespread and sweeping fraud against Trump is now deeply engrained in each and every one of his voters. In other words, half the country is not going to accept the election results. And I don't mean like in 2016 when you had the trendy #notmypresident or whatever, but a more visceral, deep-rooted feeling of having been cheated. Of course Trump planted these seeds several weeks ago with his rhetoric, and here we are. Even many Republican lawmakers are still hesitant to come out and acknowledge the election results.

Initially I was concerned that the barrage of lawsuits from the Trump campaign may find some traction if it got in front of a friendly, partisan judge...but it is clear they have no convincing evidence and are 0-10 in the courts so far. A rational person may say...ok, let them have their say in court, and when it is inevitably shot down, his supporters will (begrudgingly) see the results as valid and move on. Nope. They will likely double down on more conspiracy theories, deep state, etc.

Now you may say it doesn't matter if they don't accept the results, the rule of law and the machine of government marches on. That may be true, but having half your country believe an election was stolen is....not sustainable in terms of keeping a country from falling apart. Maybe their attention spans will be short and they'll just move on in short time - or maybe Trump and/or his surrogates will fan the flames long after the election and keep that part of the electorate simmering. What happens the next time they win the Presidency, or if they get total control as they did in 2016? The voters certainly aren't punishing them as we saw this election at least in congressional seats. 4 years is a long time but Biden is going to be in a tough spot. Back-to-back one term presidents? Is 2024 the year they finally abolish elections? And that's nothing to say of the potential for acts of violence in the short term.

I'm not trying to fearmonger or be overly pessimistic, but how does this trajectory have any happy ending of sorts? Half the country is going to hate the other half for "stealing" an election and doesn't even want to be governed by them in the first place. I'm sure somebody has a good quote about a post-truth world, and here we are.

I agree with your fears here and personally I think it’s quite likely it won’t have a happy ending. I don’t think Republicans are going to get better, they are going to get worse. To a large extent I think there’s nothing to be done. You can’t force them to value democracy more than they value getting their way.

I believe in my lifetime the American right will attempt some extralegal seizure of power or will attempt to use the legal system to effectively enable permanent minority rule by them. I’m not certain of this of course and I would love to be wrong, but that is the clear trajectory they are on. While we can certainly fight that if/when that happens until then all we can really do is keep doing what we are doing - beat them at the polls and then when we do control the government try and roll back the worst abuses.

 

[gothuevos]

There are still many Republicans like Romney, Bush, McCain, ect that don't buy into the fraud claim and never will. It honestly only needs to be 20% or so that don't buy into the fraud for dems to run.

The flip side is maybe all this fraud talk will convince those clowns to not vote because it's "rigged".

Bush, Romney and the other "neocons" have been rapidly purged from their party...I think the current GOP probably despises anything they have to say. In fact, I'd say it probably only fuels their deep state conspiracies.

The GA senate races will give us a nice barometer of whether they are discouraged fr voting or not. But that's also not something I'd want any voter to feel, regardless of party.

This may sound corny and lame...but I wonder if some sort of "reconciliation" convention can be held in the coming years...not to agree on the issues, but to at least reaffirm ourselves to the basic rules of democracy and clamp down on hurtful rhetoric. Something has to be done before it's too late.

 

[K1052]

Conservatives will eventually start a civil war because they don't win every election even though they hold much more power than they should because of how the board is tilted to them under our system. When they talk about democracy I can only hear what they really mean at this point: votes for them count, votes for others don't.

 

[fskimospy]

Bush, Romney and the other "neocons" have been rapidly purged from their party...I think the current GOP probably despises anything they have to say. In fact, I'd say it probably only fuels their deep state conspiracies.

The GA senate races will give us a nice barometer of whether they are discouraged fr voting or not. But that's also not something I'd want any voter to feel, regardless of party.

This may sound corny and lame...but I wonder if some sort of "reconciliation" convention can be held in the coming years...not to agree on the issues, but to at least reaffirm ourselves to the basic rules of democracy and clamp down on hurtful rhetoric. Something has to be done before it's too late.

Considering in the last several years conservatives have:

1) used US foreign policy to extort foreign leaders into smearing their domestic opponents.
2) sabotaged the USPS to slow the delivery of ballots likely to be used by their opponents.
3) accepted illegal help from hostile foreign powers to smear their opponents.
4) have engaged in gerrymandering so extreme that even when they lose in a landslide they still get legislative supermajorities.
5) have enacted changes to voting procedures that target their opponents with ‘almost surgical precision’

etc, etc.

It might be safe to say they are showing with their actions that they no longer believe in democracy.

 

[gothuevos]

I believe in my lifetime the American right will attempt some extralegal seizure of power or will attempt to use the legal system to effectively enable permanent minority rule by them.

Looks like we didn't have to wait long. Barr getting into the arena.

 

[fskimospy]

Looks like we didn't have to wait long. Barr getting into the arena.

Hard to say, I am not sure this is a serious attempt to seize power but I’m also not 100% sure it isn’t. As I’ve been saying for years this is the most dangerous time - the time between when Trump loses and when he’s actually out of power. He doesn’t have much to lose at this point so burning it all down is an option.

 

[Sunburn74]

Good thing that the Russians didn't interfere with the presidential election like they did in 2016. It would be a shame for people to think that a foreign power "stole " an election and there by forcing several politicians to promise to impeach the puppet president if elected. Who knows, but we might also have had a scenario where millions of people would constantly be told that election results were fraudulent. Close call.

The russians still interfered in this election. So did the iranians per the FBI.

 

[gothuevos]

Hard to say, I am not sure this is a serious attempt to seize power but I’m also not 100% sure it isn’t. As I’ve been saying for years this is the most dangerous time - the time between when Trump loses and when he’s actually out of power. He doesn’t have much to lose at this point so burning it all down is an option.

Why else would he fire Exper, Wray etc. It's not to make Biden's job harder...these are people Biden would have replaced anyway.

Trump wants people in place that will do as he says. So what is he planning?

 

[SmCaudata]

The russians still interfered in this election. So did the iranians per the FBI.

The more I see him post, the more I believe he's just incompetent in life and having a fascist dictator tell him what to do and think eases his anxiety. It excuses him from having independent thought.

 

[zzyzxroad]

The russians still interfered in this election. So did the iranians per the FBI.

Just remember, you are talking to a guy who said these things in September.


"Too bad Nancy Pelosi won't let Joe Biden talk publicly because it would be nice to hear what he has to say."

"It will be great to see Biden fail bigly when he doesn't have the protection of his basement or teleprompter."

 

[Mai72]

Fox did the right thing by turning away from Kayleigh when she was lying thru her teeth. Good job Fox.

 

[hal2kilo]

Not sure what your point is, beneath the passive-aggressive snark.

Personally I've always felt a little cynical about the Russian-interference stuff. Though I'm sure they meddled, and Putin is clearly a gangster, I can't help but see some irony in it all, given how relentlessly the US has interfered in elections all over the world, and in particular how much the US did to help bring Putin to power in the first place. Both Reagan and Clinton separately did their bit to bring Putinism into this world and make it the force it is. Furthermore the US system's weaknesses, that the Russians attempted to exploit, are the responsibility of the US.

But what can you do? Politics is a sordid business and the elites always screw things up as they pursue their self-interest, whatever the party label. Right now though the boot is on the other foot, and the Republicans are the 'useful idiots' of the Kremlin. At this moment there is clearly a big difference between the two parties.

Say what?