Seriously is there really a difference

[busmaster11]

Originally posted by: bluemax
So between this heated debate, what chipsets do you both RECOMMEND for being fast, featured, stable and reliable?
SIS 7xx?
Intel 8xx?

For intel I like the 845 DDR platform and 850 Tehama-D or whatever - I don't keep up with that too much.

For AMD I love the SIS735 but its getting old. I'd go for an nForce

 

[limsandy]

Originally posted by: Pabster
tweakmm wrote:

"Does anybody else find it funny that pabster doesn't have an Intel box but has 5 AMD boxes?"

You're actually the first to notice my rig profile, evidently. I haven't updated it for some time. The only AMD rig I still own is my MP3 jukebox machine (XP1800+, K7S5A). The other 4 are P4 Northwood machines. I just haven't bothered to update the rig list.

Not to mention that your rig says: DUAL AMD Athlon 4 (Palomino) + Seagate Cheetah X15-36LP = Heaven!

Why not say Dual P4 >>> sex ?

 

[Insane3D]

Yippee!! Chipset wars are on again!!! Woooooohoooooo!

<-------grabs some popcorn and pulls up a chair

 

[Viper GTS]

Originally posted by: limsandy

Originally posted by: Pabster
tweakmm wrote:

"Does anybody else find it funny that pabster doesn't have an Intel box but has 5 AMD boxes?"

You're actually the first to notice my rig profile, evidently. I haven't updated it for some time. The only AMD rig I still own is my MP3 jukebox machine (XP1800+, K7S5A). The other 4 are P4 Northwood machines. I just haven't bothered to update the rig list.

Not to mention that your rig says: DUAL AMD Athlon 4 (Palomino) + Seagate Cheetah X15-36LP = Heaven!

Why not say Dual P4 >>> sex ?

Perhaps because the only Dual P4 available is the Xeon?

Viper GTS <-- Loves his dual 1800+ system but would kill for dual 2533 P4's

 

[krunk7]

I've used both platforms. Don't think you'll see any real world difference. I've built around 10 systems based on via chipsets with nothing but good things to tell. (Disclaimer: the earlier 266 chipset by VIA (KT266) gave me all kinds of hell...especially with USB, however when I RMA'D the board they sent a brand new kt266a back.....works great. Can't complain about that.)

 

[onelin]

I'm going to side-step the main issue, but state my experience(s)
my Asus P3V4X (far from the best via chipset, worked fine for 2+ years tho) with PIII 1GHz could do WinXP Pro for just over 3 1/2 weeks before explorer was in too bad of shape...I do remember some IDE fussiness, but I'm used to these things from even old intel boards (may be wrong)

current (new) rig is an Asus A7V333 (KT333) w/ AthlonXP 1900+ and it's insane. key sell points? onboard USB 2.0, plenty usb 1.1, onboard *firewire*, and onboard RAID so I can add a 2nd 80GB and do some more serious video editing later this summer. pack all that into a motherboard for $135 retail and slap in features like MyLogo and voice POST msgs...tough feat. I'd love to go intel, but show me an 845E or G (and I hate integrated graphics) with these features that is available and not having stocking issues in the past 2 weeks. And yes, in the first few days I've had the box I made some solid use of it with a DV camcorder and works great. I've run into some minor quirks, but I'm a college student with a budget. budget + featuresets == sell. 1.6A is no sure thing, though I'd love for it to be. too many 'what ifs' on the intel route for my decision...that and price. I respect them and was THIS close to going Pentium IV...but just not this time.I know some are more comfortable with serious overclocks, but not worth it for me IMHO at this time. btw it's running cool w/ stock cooling

track record in the last 4/5 upgrades:
socket7 P166 non-mmx on intel board (unknown which) still runs. w/ 80MB EDO

slot1 Celeron 400 on an Abit BX6 rv2.0 (440BX) w/ 128MB cas2 pc100 ...which, btw, had those same serious SB live value issues. I doubt that one is really Via's fault. Asus TNT & 3d Prophet DDR-DVI were used w/ it. still running

socket370 PIII 600@800Mhz (1.75v I believe, eventually refused to work after 1 yr) on P3V4X. going to put that in the 440BX same 3d Prophet w/ slocket

socket370 PIII 1GHz (temporary 6 month fix) + 512MB cas 2-2-2
same P3V4X, out for the moment. both PIII's will be turned into micro-atx intel chipset rigs in custom aluminum cases a friend will be making later this year

socket A Athlon 900MHz (tbird) w/ 128MB cas2 pc133 (I think) for an office machine, runs great on an Abit KT7 board. minor quirks at first.

that brings it up to now, so I have two AMD CPS and 3+ Intel, not a very biased person I hope

 

[MadRat]

<<The expectation that AMD would goto a 133FSB was fully there at the time.>>

The fact is that AMD has to lead the changes. Its not as simple as a simple increase in MHz to the front-side bus.

<<Let's finish the quote. Funny what you decided to leave out...
Quote
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The end result is the VIA KT266A which from an architectural standpoint is nothing more than the original KT266 with an updated North Bridge. ...VIA is being very tight lipped about the exact improvements surrounding the new memory controller however we have some educated guesses...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------->>

Anand's speculation is not relevant to your argument. Performance was increased according to VIA through "major changes" to the memory controller, a deeper queue (buffer) and tighter timing specifications. So we hear from the source that it was a major change from the KT266 whereas Anand took a wild stab in the dark and speculated it was minor changes. Then Anand never goes into why he believes it was minor changes versus major changes other than to say they likely borrowed the design from VIA's Pentium4-compatible chipset. Hardly a concrete argument on Anand's part.

<<1. No doubt. I'm just merely pointing out a pattern from my own experience. Take it as you may.
2. VIA + CL is still a combo many people refuse to venture into. Whose fault it is I won't judge. But in the time it took VIA to fix their 4in1's, mobos could and have gone obsolete... Whereas my nforce worked flawlessly out of the box. Interesting concept. Most people couldn't say the same about VIA boards till recently, if ever.
3. Not to mention the IDE devices on those controllers...
4. Typo there. The other mobos were relatively stable.>>

2. I've never experienced the incompatibility with SB Live! that others have had. Half of my systems have used VIA chipsets, dating back to the Super7 days.
3. Help me out and be more specific.

<<Your link's not working.>>

Their website is slow depending on time of day. It was instant access to everything this morning.

<<Do you deny any of my claims? Do you suggest that we actually see much of that 25% boost in memory bandwidth in benchmarks? Are you saying the added memory cost is actually worth whatever performance boost you get?>>
...AND...
<<Two negligible things. Whats so special about DDR333?>>

I do know that Athlons were designed for either 100fsb or 133fsb. The fact is that the Athlon processor is bottlenecked by its 64-bit datapath to both main memory and its L2 cache. (If I was going for a Pentium4 and DDR then you're damn straight I'd want DDR400 minimum.) I wouldn't be buying DDR333 or DDR400 unless I intended to run my Athlon at 166-200fsb's. I also know that DDR memory is not 128-bit memory, something most forum members around here are simply unable to comprehend. (You know the difference so would know better than to go KT333 over a KT266A.) Most customers do not understand this concept, just as they don't understand just about any technical aspects of their purchases. If VIA can drum up extra business with the KT333 than more power to them.

<<But overall it's just painful to watch when people here purchase it expecting hugh performance increases over their current DDR setups.>>

We can only do so much for other people. The simple truth is that they need to think for themselves.

 

[MadRat]

<<So between this heated debate, what chipsets do you both RECOMMEND for being fast, featured, stable and reliable? SIS 7xx? Intel 8xx?>>

I don't think its a heated debate. Busmaster11 and I have been pretty tame.

For AMD I'd probably go for KT333 chipset and DDR266 memory. Maybe even a 760MPX chipset if I wanted dual-processors.

For Intel I'd probably bite the cost and stick to the 850E and PC800 RDRAM memory. I just can't look at DDR as a serious alternative to RDRAM in Pentium4 processors on either the 533fsb or above 2.0GHz.

 

[Dark1]

Thank you guys very much ,but all I'm hearing about are problems with the kt266 and nothing about the kt333 has any one had any issues with this new chipset. Are there any nforce motherboards with on board raid (thats what the two 20gigs are for)?

from Madrat

For Intel I'd probably bite the cost and stick to the 850E and PC800 RDRAM memory. I just can't look at DDR as a serious alternative to RDRAM in Pentium4 processors on either the 533fsb or above 2.0GHz.

I think that if I get and Intel solution I'm still going to stick with DDR333. Intel will be stop making RDRAM boards in a few months, they ready have dual channel DDR333 chipsets coming out in a month or 2, the Hammers internal mem controller supports DDR333(why they haven't said anything about DDR II I do not know). I seems to me that DDR in what ever form it will be in the next year is the most viable solution.

 

[busmaster11]

Originally posted by: MadRat<<Let's finish the quote. Funny what you decided to leave out...
Quote
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The end result is the VIA KT266A which from an architectural standpoint is nothing more than the original KT266 with an updated North Bridge. ...VIA is being very tight lipped about the exact improvements surrounding the new memory controller however we have some educated guesses...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------->>

Anand's speculation is not relevant to your argument. Performance was increased according to VIA through "major changes" to the memory controller, a deeper queue (buffer) and tighter timing specifications. So we hear from the source that it was a major change from the KT266 whereas Anand took a wild stab in the dark and speculated it was minor changes. Then Anand never goes into why he believes it was minor changes versus major changes other than to say they likely borrowed the design from VIA's Pentium4-compatible chipset. Hardly a concrete argument on Anand's part.

WTH! You used his quote first! :Q I just completed it! Its relevant in that you're speculating that these were major changes. You left out my quote that says that your point here is at best arguable, whereas mine is concrete. It was that while there is a major performance increase between the 266 and the 266a, it doesn't necessarily mean (and IMO it doesn't mean) that there has been any major architectural changes. BTW we all agree it shares the same SouthBridge.

<<1. No doubt. I'm just merely pointing out a pattern from my own experience. Take it as you may.
2. VIA + CL is still a combo many people refuse to venture into. Whose fault it is I won't judge. But in the time it took VIA to fix their 4in1's, mobos could and have gone obsolete... Whereas my nforce worked flawlessly out of the box. Interesting concept. Most people couldn't say the same about VIA boards till recently, if ever.
3. Not to mention the IDE devices on those controllers...
4. Typo there. The other mobos were relatively stable.>>

2. I've never experienced the incompatibility with SB Live! that others have had. Half of my systems have used VIA chipsets, dating back to the Super7 days.
3. Help me out and be more specific.

2. Fine. I'm happy for you. But its well documented that many people including myself have. It happens with intensive hard drive activity for me, but some say transfering large (100megs+) files while playing sound
3. My ATA and ATAPI devices would have the word SCSI appended to the name within Device Manager - and they're on the onboard controller...

 

[busmaster11]

Originally posted by: Dark1
Thank you guys very much ,but all I'm hearing about are problems with the kt266 and nothing about the kt333 has any one had any issues with this new chipset. Are there any nforce motherboards with on board raid (thats what the two 20gigs are for)?

The ABIT NV7-133R. I love this board. It's got EVERYTHING... Raid, USB 2.0, ethernet, awesome sound, etc... It's Fantastic, and I can't believe its just 89 bucks at newegg. I've got the Asus version, with less frills but with CPU overheating protection. Both are I believe to be the most reliable solutions there are...

The name and the pictures indicate RAID, but the discription and price does not. You may wanna ask.

Madrat I'm a little surprised you'd recommend the KT333 and PC2100 memory. If this was the case, I'd presume you're recommending people use it as a newer revision of a KT266a board with newer features. If this is the case, I'd have to agree. DDR333 just isn't worth it at this point, and most issues as you've mentioned have been resolved. While my personal mistrust of VIA chips still exist, I don't deny that the solution you recommend for such a purpose is a good one for those that don't share my sentiments.

Having said that, I'd still go for an nForce 415d.

 

[MadRat]

The KT333 is the newest VIA solution and is always paired with the newest south bridge. The KT266 has been paired up with three and the KT266A with two different south bridges by different motherboard makers, so its hard to say he'll be getting the newest revision when that is the one he wants for all the new features.

If he is going for an nForce board then he really wants the built-in sound by NVidia and not the cheapo substitutes. I don't doubt that NVidia makes a decent board, just one has to make sure he reads up on their DDR quirks so that he can run the memory at maximum efficiency.

<<3. My ATA and ATAPI devices would have the word SCSI appended to the name within Device Manager - and they're on the onboard controller...>>

Try a BIOS upgrade. The Asus A7V used to do this with stock BIOSes, but solved the issue upon further revisions. Chances are you have a similar problem where the DMI is getting a misread of the device's CMOS label.

<<WTH! You used his quote first! I just completed it!>>

The beginning of his quote was irrelevant to my point so I ommitted it. The only relevance in his review was his quote from VIA about the "major changes".

<<BTW we all agree it shares the same SouthBridge.>>

Sort of, but not exactly. The KT266/KT266A have been paired up with several older south bridges and not just the newest one. You have to look at them on a case by case basis. All of VIA's Socket-A north and south bridges use identical pinouts and are designed around a schematic labelled V-Mapping that allows a manufacturer to cut design time for different revisions of motherboards. By simply changing the north or south bridge, or by connecting only specific arrangements of pins, a whole new revision can be made. Some of the bugs in early Asus socket-A boards were attributed to misunderstandings of V-Mapping techniques.

 

[onelin]

I'll say one thing, on my KT333 board memory is the one problematic area. I shelled out a few extra (~$25) to go Corsair 2700 instead of Samsung PC2100 and it ends up not running w/ full timings which is frustrating... I might be inclined to say go KT333 if you want the features, but stick to PC2100 since you won't see a huge improvement. memory is also an area I try to look ahead, though...I may go for a P4 DDR chipset later on or upgrade when they have Athlons redesigned for higher mem... I'm happy that my 3 PC133 cas2 dimms from my PIII boxes will be useable in medium/high portable LAN game servers and don't mind having paid a few bucks more at the time... btw like my previous reply said, A7V333 is my board w/ an AthlonXP1900+

 

[busmaster11]

Originally posted by: MadRat
The KT333 is the newest VIA solution and is always paired with the newest south bridge. The KT266 has been paired up with three and the KT266A with two different south bridges by different motherboard makers, so its hard to say he'll be getting the newest revision when that is the one he wants for all the new features.

If he is going for an nForce board then he really wants the built-in sound by NVidia and not the cheapo substitutes. I don't doubt that NVidia makes a decent board, just one has to make sure he reads up on their DDR quirks so that he can run the memory at maximum efficiency.

I think what you're referring to are different revisions of the same southbridge chip. Either way, we're discussing memory, so thats irrelevant. The only quirk on an nForce board with regards to memory is that for maximum performance you should have two identical chips in the first two slots, and only five banks are supported out of a possible six. Meaning you can't have three double sided DIMMs in there. Plus slots need to be populated starting from 1 to 3.

<<3. My ATA and ATAPI devices would have the word SCSI appended to the name within Device Manager - and they're on the onboard controller...>>

Try a BIOS upgrade. The Asus A7V used to do this with stock BIOSes, but solved the issue upon further revisions. Chances are you have a similar problem where the DMI is getting a misread of the device's CMOS label.

Geez. Thats gotta be among the first things I or anyone else savvy enough to come to this site would try. If it were that easy there would be no need for forums. I do remember though, that upon loading win2k it was stable, but slow. After the 4in1 installs, SCSI devices would pop up and random lockups would happen. Pissed the heck out of me.

<<WTH! You used his quote first! I just completed it!>>

The beginning of his quote was irrelevant to my point so I ommitted it. The only relevance in his review was his quote from VIA about the "major changes".

Of course. How convenient.

 

[borealiss]

there is no difference but 1, cost.

vote your pocketbook like every other american here. i've gone with both intel and via chipsets in the past. had a server mainboard based on the bx440 chipset, solid as a rock, but wasn't without some issues. also owned a via chipset on my first k6-2 300 system, again rock solid, but wasn't without issues. now i'm running a tbird 1.5 ghz on a epox 8kha+ (kt266a). again, rock solid, but not without issues. my system does not like creative's sound cards, and i'm suspecting it's my compaq uw2 dual channel lvd card. my point here? chipsets for the most part perform pretty reliably, but you have to do your research on a good chipset/mainboard model pair. ALL chipsets have their issues. right now i havent rebooted my system for 16+ days on my "unstable" via chipset. i did my research and got the epox for this reason. again, if you do your research, ANY amd system can be made as stable as an intel, and vice versa. my bx wasn't without issues, it did not like my old mx300, regardless of dual or single cpu configuration. does this mean the chipset is bad? no, that mainboard had a hiccup with it. i'm actually surprised half of the stuff out there works properly, but i think stability is more of a function of mainboard manufacturer than anything else.

so if you're stuck at a crossroads, get the system that is most cost effective for you. everything else nowadays between the two platforms are pretty much equal.

 

[Acanthus]

its quite simple everyone, dont use crappy, cheap, or ancient hardware on a new mobo, and dont use crappy cheap or ancient motherboards with new hardware. Its not a hard concept, new mobos are designed to work with newer (gasp) parts. And obviously old parts were not designed to work with new mobos. (gasp2). Do pull out your DXR DVD encoding cards, throw away your 8MB TNTs, and your 28k PCI modems and cut our troubleshooting forum size in half