Serious help required ...

[DodgerLD]

Hello all,

I've been shopping around for quite some time looking for a new gfx card. The card I have now has 4 megs of video memory (please, don't laugh) and is unable to run at 32bit color at a resolution of 1152 x 870.

I had just about settled on a 6600gt from leadtek (good choice?, rather ASUS?), when I discovered that my m/board only supports 2x AGP (a Gigabyte GA-BX2000) ...

My current system has a 450 (449) Mhz Intel CPU. (again, don't laugh)

I'm not into gaming (don't hate me), and use my computer for general tasks as well as programming and a little bit of graphic design (photoshop, etc.).

With a budget of $500 max

Mainboard

- Do recent boards still allow for 3.3V SDRAM DIMM modules? I would like to keep my existing memory if possible.
- The readers choice at xbitlabs for 'Best Mainboard Maker' was ASUS in 2004, would that be a good brand to buy?
- ATX form factor.

CPU

- It didn't take long to see that AMD is preferred by many. Does this hold true for non-gaming systems?
- Pardon my ignorance, but if you get a processor with a 64-bit architecture, do you need 64bit software?, if so, then I'd prefer a 32bit CPU, as I intend to install Win2K or XP Pro.

Miscellaneous

- How important is a power supply?
- AGP or PCI-e? Why?

Erm ... I think that's all ... Don't be shy, a single answer is even helpful.

TIA.

d.

 

[krcat1]

Hello DodgerLD, and no one is laughing.

Your budget presents a problem. Usually, $500 means that you should look at Dell, and such, just to get the software that they add with the system.

Question: What OS and software are you using?

Goto Hot deals. There should be someone with a prome code or such that might get you a better deal on a Dell.

DO NOT GOTO BEST BUY, etc. I did for my mom's machine, and I am lucky she still claims me.

Question: Mainboard
- Forget the mem. The new CPU/MB won't use it.
- Asus is a good name, but building your own system might be too much money.
- This is the standard form factor is machines today.

CPU
- Most still prefer the AMD 64. However, for everyday use with many windows open, the P4 can be considered an option.
For programming, the AMD kicks a##.
- No. 64 bit allows you to use 64 bit SW, not requires. You can still use 32 bit SW.

Misc.
- a PSW can be very important. Check this link for details.
-AGP is the old, PCI-e is the new. If you can, go PCI-e with the 6600 card.

Above all, goto the reviews on AT. They will explain all better than I can.
Try to spend a good week reading and asking questions before you get your system.

 

[DodgerLD]

Hi krcat1,

You do realize that I only require the 3 items mentioned, not a full system?

Answer: Win2K now, may move to XP Pro. (Adobe Photoshop, Office, Eclipse platform, maybe Visual Studio at a later stage.)

Thanks.

d.

 

[MobiusPizza]

ASUS is a good brand.

A $500 could get you a *VERY* powerful computer upgrade including a whole motherboard+CPU+RAM+GPU

The Athlon 64 CPU currently beats Intel at every benchmarks except video editing with minor disadvantage. It's cheaper, runs cooler and I definitely recommend it. It can run BOTH 64-bit and 32-bit programs so no problem there. You can stick with WinXP Pro 32-bit or Win2k just fine. Going to Windows XP 64-bit is not recommended anyway because the platform is still immature, although the new Windows can run 32-bit programs

I'll list some recommended components:

CPU: AMD64 Venice 3000+ $156.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819103537

Motherboard: ~$100
I suggest waiting for motherboards with the Radeon Xpress 200G chipset because a powerful built in graphic processor is embedded

RAM: $81.43
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16820144310

Power Supply unit (PSU): US$ 80
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16817103927
Quality of power supplies ARE important for stable running of your computer. Random computer crashes are likely to be caused by PSU
Get a powersupply from brands like Antec
Suggested PSU:
Antec True Power 2.0 TP-II 380 380W Power supply
Consult the motherboard specification. This power supply is of a new ATX 2.0.1 standard which includes a 24 pin head for supplying power to motherboard. Most new motherboards require 23-pin power head

GPU:
If you get a Radeon X200G chipset motherboard you save yourself money for buying a graphic card. The performance of such shipset is equivalent to a Radeon X300 which is plenty

Otherwise get a stand alone Nvidia GeForce 6200 or ATi Radeon X300

PCI-Express is the new graphic interconnect standard. There's no performance gain going from AGP to PCI-Express.
But having a PCI-Express interconnect makes room for future upgrades

 

[IEC]

Athloin 64 2800+ (Socket 754) Retail

Soltek Socket 754 Motherboard

1GB (1x1GB) Corsair Value (good ram)

These three essentials should be PLENTY for your programming and editing needs - they may not be as fast as the n00bish gamers on this forum would want, but when you're not playing games, the onboard will work fine.

I'm building a rig based off of the above components in an Antec Aria cube case in the next month or so... very cheap upgrade

 

[MobiusPizza]

That will do as well. You just need to ask yourself whether you are willing to spend all the 500 budget or save some for dinner
Photoshop performance would increase by having a better CPU. It is quite CPU intensive

 

[krcat1]

Originally posted by: DodgerLD
Hi krcat1,

You do realize that I only require the 3 items mentioned, not a full system?

Answer: Win2K now, may move to XP Pro. (Adobe Photoshop, Office, Eclipse platform, maybe Visual Studio at a later stage.)

Thanks.

d.

No, I did not. for just those 3 items, can get a good upgrade.

Check out this link. Link
they have a form that you can play with in the combo section that will give you an idea of prices.

What wattage is you PWS? If it is under 300W, you could have trouble.

 

[w00t]

ariafrost plays source what a nub... the good players stay with 1.6.

 

[IEC]

In answer to the 64-bit question, no, your 32-bit software will run fine, even great on an A64... and now I see you need a graphics card - this probably means you'll need a new case/psu to house your components, so here are two more recommendations:

Radeon 9600 Pro Video Card

This will serve you well in 2D and 3D needs, it will even run relatively new games decently... since you aren't a gamer, I won't recommend anything higher.

Enlight Steel ATX Case with Enlight 300W Power Supply

This case is a pretty good value with a decent power supply that should work well; I still have a 250W Enlight running an Athlon rig just fine after 5 years.

Overall, it should cost ~ $420 if you use all the parts I recommend.

 

[IEC]

Originally posted by: w00t
ariafrost plays source what a nub... the good players stay with 1.6.

I play both, so I guess I must be elite

 

[DodgerLD]

This is all EXTREMELY helpful, Thank you!

ariafrost -- The Soltek Socket 754 Motherboard doesn't appear to have PCI-e, unless I'm missing something. Also, I take it Micro ATX fits in an ATX case?
krcat1 -- I will find out my PSU wattage and post it here, probably tomorrow.

I hope I won't have to change my case as well...

Do you think I could get away with 512MB memory? I have 192 now.

 

[IEC]

Originally posted by: DodgerLD
This is all EXTREMELY helpful, Thank you!

ariafrost -- The Soltek Socket 754 Motherboard doesn't appear to have PCI-e, unless I'm missing something. Also, I take it Micro ATX fits in an ATX case?
krcat1 -- I will find out my PSU wattage and post it here, probably tomorrow.

I hope I won't have to change my case as well...

Do you think I could get away with 512MB memory? I have 192 now.

That's correct, the motherboard is a AGP version. But, like you said, you are not a gamer, and so it really shouldn't matter. The motherboard WILL fit in all standard ATX and micro ATX cases. As for the RAM, 1GB is really the minimum you should get so you'll be able to compile/decompile edit/decode easily. What PSU do you have? Brand and wattage are important to determine if it'd be up to running something like this...

 

[rise]

if you're buying a new mobo/vga, how do you not go pci-e??

i wouldn't imagine you need to worry about your case, you'd know that best. as mentioned a good psu is very important and will last through your next upgrade, maybe considering your current set up

get a nice a 64 skt939 combo, a gig of value ram and a vga you like. be careful with monarch combos right now, some people complaining about the "pre-tested" combos. might be best setting it up yourself.

 

[akugami]

DodgerLD. You're much better off getting a new system with the specs that you're giving us from your old system. You can keep your old system as a backup or give it away to a family member as a web browsing computer or even give it to charity. Remember to copy over any data you want to keep and to reformat the hard drive to clean it if you're giving it away. All prices taken from Newegg. Yes, there are cheaper places to buy from such as zipzoomfly.com, monarch.com so shop around and compare. As these are suggestions I didn't do much shopping around but merely looked up items that are good and inexpensive.

I'm assuming you will keep your old keyboard, mouse, monitor and speakers. Although if your mouse uses a ball, I'd upgrade that to a cheap optical mouse.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813130485 $91 shipped from Newegg.
Decent motherboard. Has nice integrated video that while on the low edget by today's standards is leaps and bounds better than the video card you're using in your current system.

Get any 1GB RAM kit from companies such as Corsair, Crucial, Kingston, OCZ, Mushkin. It's 2x512MB for 1GB. It will usually run you about $85-100 from Newegg.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16811129127 $116 shipped from Newegg.
The Antec Sonata computer case is an excellent one and is very popular. While it's not cheap it's definitely a good mid-range product and it's power supply unit is not so generic that people like the ones on this forum will have a cow over using it in their own systems.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16822148040 $67 shipped from Newegg.
Seagate Barracuda 7200.7 SATA NCQ ST380017AS 80GB. Very good drive, not the latest model but still very good.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819103501 $146 shipped from Newegg.
I realize this is the older Winchester core but this guy is not overclocking and he doesn't look like he needs the updated memory controller nor does he look like he's going to be using programs that make heavy use of SSE3. Heck, even if he was the upgrade in computer power compared to his old system would make any difference between having SSE3 and not having it negligeable. He saves a few bucks getting the Winchester core over the Venice core.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16827152039 $48 shipped from Newegg.
NEC 3520A DVD burner. Beige colored one, if you want the black one to match the Sonata case it's $2 more.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16821152005 $10 shipped from Newegg.
NEC floppy drive in case you need it.

This system will run you close to $600. You can scale back on some parts by getting a cheaper case. You can get some ok ones for roughly $50 or so with a 300-450watt PSU. I don't trust the PSU's in such generic cases though they can and will work for years in a low powered system. Understand that cheap PSU's have a higher chance of going bad and in the process it can take out other components with it. The other places you can scale back on is getting 512MB of RAM instead of 1GB. Again, go with the major sellers like OCZ, Crucial, Corsair, Kingston, Mushkin. A single 512MB stick should run you roughly $40-45 shipped.

That should drop you right at or close enough to the $500 price you were targetting for upgrades. This system would absolutely murder your old system and considering your light computing needs should last you for many years to come. If you ever feel the need for more power this setup is highly upgradeable from more RAM, to a faster videocard using the new PCI-Express standard, to dual core CPU's.

Either this sytem or just order a Dell for between 400-500 with a LCD. They usually have one for sale every couple of weeks for about that price with a 17" LCD monitor.

 

[Fisher999]

Originally posted by: AnnihilatorX
ASUS is a good brand.

A $500 could get you a *VERY* powerful computer upgrade including a whole motherboard+CPU+RAM+GPU...

...I'll list some recommended components:

CPU: AMD64 Venice 3000+ $156.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819103537

Motherboard: ~$100
I suggest waiting for motherboards with the Radeon Xpress 200G chipset because a powerful built in graphic processor is embedded

RAM: $81.43
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16820144310

Power Supply unit (PSU): US$ 80
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16817103927
Quality of power supplies ARE important for stable running of your computer. Random computer crashes are likely to be caused by PSU
Get a powersupply from brands like Antec
Suggested PSU:
Antec True Power 2.0 TP-II 380 380W Power supply
Consult the motherboard specification. This power supply is of a new ATX 2.0.1 standard which includes a 24 pin head for supplying power to motherboard. Most new motherboards require 23-pin power head

GPU:
If you get a Radeon X200G chipset motherboard you save yourself money for buying a graphic card. The performance of such shipset is equivalent to a Radeon X300 which is plenty

Otherwise get a stand alone Nvidia GeForce 6200 or ATi Radeon X300

PCI-Express is the new graphic interconnect standard. There's no performance gain going from AGP to PCI-Express.
But having a PCI-Express interconnect makes room for future upgrades

I agree with annihilatorx's recommendations ! :thumbsup:

May I add just a couple of thoughts ???

Ok, I will !!!

There is a motherboard available that has the ATI Radeon Xpress 200 chipset made by MSI over here at NewEgg for $80.50 delivered. It is a microATX board but has a PCI-E x16 graphic slot, onboard Radeon Express 200 graphics (equivalent to a Radeon x300se), 100Bps LAN, SATA, RAID, 6 channel audio, Firewire and plenty of USB 2.0.

I agree that quality of the P/S is VERY important. May I ADD to your choices the highly-recommended SeaSonic S12-430 Power Supply. It is a reliable, highly EFFICIENT and VERY QUIET power supply. Unfortuneately, it just rose in price $7 this week.

The Geil RAM recommended is excellent but here are two other choices:

This Kingston 1 GB (512 X2) DDR400 ValueRam very similar in performance to the Geil (but at this price point I'd go with the Geil too) or another highly-recommended RAM , this G.Skill 1GB (512X2) 2-3-3-6 DDR400 RAM.

Greg

 

[Fisher999]

Originally posted by: krcat1
...Check out this link. Link
they have a form that you can play with in the combo section that will give you an idea of prices...

I just purchased a "Combo" from this vendor - Monarch Computer Systems. Although I was happy with my final delivered price, be aware that the prices can start to jump quickly when you start to add the $14 for their recommeded thermal application of Shin-Etsu for the HSF, the cost of their extended warranties ( the basic warranty on the combos is only 3 months) and added cost of HSF, cables and the like.

Also note that the price of their RETAIL CPU's is usually LESS than the cost of their OEM CPUS by the time you add the cost of the required HSF. The generic HSF on the retail CPU will not give you the ability to OC your CPU too high but it WILL give you the THREE year warranty on the CPU.

Greg

 

[Fisher999]

Originally posted by: akugami
DodgerLD...
...I'm assuming you will keep your old keyboard, mouse, monitor and speakers. Although if your mouse uses a ball, I'd upgrade that to a cheap optical mouse.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813130485 $91 shipped from Newegg.
Decent motherboard. Has nice integrated video that while on the low edget by today's standards is leaps and bounds better than the video card you're using in your current system.

Get any 1GB RAM kit from companies such as Corsair, Crucial, Kingston, OCZ, Mushkin. It's 2x512MB for 1GB. It will usually run you about $85-100 from Newegg.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16811129127 $116 shipped from Newegg.
The Antec Sonata computer case is an excellent one and is very popular. While it's not cheap it's definitely a good mid-range product and it's power supply unit is not so generic that people like the ones on this forum will have a cow over using it in their own systems.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16822148040 $67 shipped from Newegg.
Seagate Barracuda 7200.7 SATA NCQ ST380017AS 80GB. Very good drive, not the latest model but still very good.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819103501 $146 shipped from Newegg.
I realize this is the older Winchester core but this guy is not overclocking and he doesn't look like he needs the updated memory controller nor does he look like he's going to be using programs that make heavy use of SSE3. Heck, even if he was the upgrade in computer power compared to his old system would make any difference between having SSE3 and not having it negligeable. He saves a few bucks getting the Winchester core over the Venice core.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16827152039 $48 shipped from Newegg.
NEC 3520A DVD burner. Beige colored one, if you want the black one to match the Sonata case it's $2 more.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16821152005 $10 shipped from Newegg.
NEC floppy drive in case you need it...

I think these are very sound suggestions !!!

Sorry I suggested the mobo you had already suggested akugami !

Just a couple of additional thoughts:

I think that the "Venice" core Athlon64 with its improved memory controller and support for Intel's SSE3 instruction set is worth it for the minimal $10 more over here at NewEgg .

Furthermore, if you have need for a FDD, may I suggest this SONY 3.5" 1.44MB drive. I have used lots of FDDs and the Sony's are almost always the QUIETEST and are as reliable as about any other FDD.

Good job everyone !!!

Greg

 

[DodgerLD]

Keep it coming, this is great!

PSU: 235W (I can hear you screaming!) Not sure of brand, so I guess we can assume no-name. Monitor (17" CRT) does not run through PSU, if that makes any difference.

Is it necessary to purchase a SATA HDD? Or can I use my IDE Drives? What about my CD ROM drive/FloppyDD?

One more Q. for now (stop me if I'm asking too many) ... Socket 939 or 754?

d.

 

[Fisher999]

Originally posted by: DodgerLD
Keep it coming, this is great!

PSU: 235W (I can hear you screaming!) Not sure of brand, so I guess we can assume no-name. ... Socket 939 or 754?

Your P/S should really be upgraded; it's the heart that pumps the blood through your system and you don't want to replace your system's hip, knee, or arm and then leave it with a sick heart.

Socket 939 vs. 754 is a tough question.

It would have been easier if not for the fact that a forum member discovered that AMD is considering replaicing socket 939 in about a year with a new socket (called M2 I believe) that will require DDR-2 RAM.

I'd still go socket 939........ more upgrade potential (even if the M2 replaces it) because right now you can go "venice" core or even "San Diego" core Athlon 64 and/or down the road upgrade to a dual core Athlon CPU . In addition, the majority of socket 754 boards (maybe all of them) use the AGP/standard 32 bit PCI BUS architecture while the 939 boards offer PCI-Express BUS slots yet still retain 2-4 standard 32 bit PCI slots for legacy support.

Go Socket 939 IMHO !!!

Greg

 

[Fisher999]

Originally posted by: AnnihilatorX
...GPU:
If you get a Radeon X200G chipset motherboard you save yourself money for buying a graphic card. The performance of such shipset is equivalent to a Radeon X300 which is plenty

Otherwise get a stand alone Nvidia GeForce 6200 or ATi Radeon X300

PCI-Express is the new graphic interconnect standard. There's no performance gain going from AGP to PCI-Express. But having a PCI-Express interconnect makes room for future upgrades

If you DO decide to go with an inexpensive PCI-E graphics card here's a good example of a card with ATI's Radeon X300SE chipset, this ASUS/Radeon x300SE PCI-E videocard for $64.50 DELIVERED.

Greg

 

[DodgerLD]

Thanks Fisher999.

Two more questions for now, if I may:

1. Will my IDE Drives, CD ROM drive and FloppyDD still run correctly on recent motherboards?
2. Do you think it would be simple enough for me to assemble this system? Much different than older systems?

TIA.

d.

 

[MobiusPizza]

1. Yes, even most recent motherboards have IDE channels and floppy channels

2. It's not much different after all. The connectors might be different, e.g. SATA, 24-pin power supply but they have the same functions and are same place around. The motherboard mannual would cover all things you need to know.

 

[DodgerLD]

Thanks AnnihilatorX!

I'll be back ...

 

[Fisher999]

Originally posted by: AnnihilatorX
1. Yes, even most recent motherboards have IDE channels and floppy channels

2. It's not much different after all. The connectors might be different, e.g. SATA, 24-pin power supply but they have the same functions and are same place around. The motherboard mannual would cover all things you need to know.

Sorry I didn't get to the thread to answer your questions OP, but Annihilator answered them just fine !

 

[DodgerLD]

no worries.