Serious discussion: Why are tax cuts contentious?

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: HJD1

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Originally posted by: SuperTool
If the tax cuts were "affordable", we wouldn't have deficits. The fact that we are running a deficit shows that we are already not paying enough in taxes, and definitely cannot afford a tax cut.

WOW - I don't know where to start with you. The fact that we are running a deficit means we are spending too much - NOT that we aren't paying enough in taxes. I guess a socialist may think like you do but I and most of America will disagree with what you said.

CkG

Is it not possible that the assumption regarding the spending side of the equation considered the revenue comming from all those out of work folks and the chipper economy that was expected.... and therefore, it's not the spending but the amount of non tax collection due to voodoo assumptions.

I don't neccessarily disagree with that but just like you and I (and most people) we spend more when we earn or recieve more money - the gov't is no different. Have they overspent? Hell yes. Should they curb the spending to meet their income? hell yes.

Now as for the economy/tax-cut situation - what options does Congress have besides? a tax-cut to stimulate the economy? I'd be all for a solid plan that didn't come in the form of a tax-cut but nobody seems to be proposing alternatives to the tax-cut plan - they just keep whittling away at Bush's.
Someone has to have an idea somewhere. Stand up - let's hear it!

CkG

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Originally posted by: HJD1

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Originally posted by: SuperTool
If the tax cuts were "affordable", we wouldn't have deficits. The fact that we are running a deficit shows that we are already not paying enough in taxes, and definitely cannot afford a tax cut.

WOW - I don't know where to start with you. The fact that we are running a deficit means we are spending too much - NOT that we aren't paying enough in taxes. I guess a socialist may think like you do but I and most of America will disagree with what you said.

CkG

Is it not possible that the assumption regarding the spending side of the equation considered the revenue comming from all those out of work folks and the chipper economy that was expected.... and therefore, it's not the spending but the amount of non tax collection due to voodoo assumptions.

I don't neccessarily disagree with that but just like you and I (and most people) we spend more when we earn or recieve more money - the gov't is no different. Have they overspent? Hell yes. Should they curb the spending to meet their income? hell yes.

Now as for the economy/tax-cut situation - what options does Congress have besides? a tax-cut to stimulate the economy? I'd be all for a solid plan that didn't come in the form of a tax-cut but nobody seems to be proposing alternatives to the tax-cut plan - they just keep whittling away at Bush's.
Someone has to have an idea somewhere. Stand up - let's hear it!

CkG

OK

Without making things we have no jobs. Force the counties we import from to have the same standards we do or stop importing. Or lower our standards

Stop all government spending over what they take in until the debt is at a manageable level. This will force politicans to "live within thier" means and more importantly protect our future from outragous taxes without any of the social benefits some high tax cultures benefit from today.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Carbonyl

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Originally posted by: HJD1

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Originally posted by: SuperTool
If the tax cuts were "affordable", we wouldn't have deficits. The fact that we are running a deficit shows that we are already not paying enough in taxes, and definitely cannot afford a tax cut.

WOW - I don't know where to start with you. The fact that we are running a deficit means we are spending too much - NOT that we aren't paying enough in taxes. I guess a socialist may think like you do but I and most of America will disagree with what you said.

CkG

Is it not possible that the assumption regarding the spending side of the equation considered the revenue comming from all those out of work folks and the chipper economy that was expected.... and therefore, it's not the spending but the amount of non tax collection due to voodoo assumptions.

I don't neccessarily disagree with that but just like you and I (and most people) we spend more when we earn or recieve more money - the gov't is no different. Have they overspent? Hell yes. Should they curb the spending to meet their income? hell yes.

Now as for the economy/tax-cut situation - what options does Congress have besides? a tax-cut to stimulate the economy? I'd be all for a solid plan that didn't come in the form of a tax-cut but nobody seems to be proposing alternatives to the tax-cut plan - they just keep whittling away at Bush's.
Someone has to have an idea somewhere. Stand up - let's hear it!

CkG

OK

Without making things we have no jobs. Force the counties we import from to have the same standards we do or stop importing. Or lower our standards

Stop all government spending over what they take in until the debt is at a manageable level. This will force politicans to "live within thier" means and more importantly protect our future from outragous taxes without any of the social benefits some high tax cultures benefit from today.

So you'd impose tarriffs on imports from countrys that don't meet our specs? Don't you thing that our exports will taxed as a response? or worse yet "sanctioned from the EU?

I can only pick at your ideas because I myself don't have a solid plan to present that will actually stimulate the economy Good try though

CkG

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: Carbonyl

Microsoft is IMO viable by all measurments... they have what... 30 billion in cash and product lined up to the year 2050... XP delta over Millenium garnered them windfall of god knows how much since you can't load it on more than one computer...

They don't produce any wealth, in fact they spend more than they make each year. All this cash lying around is from stock sales. Wealth redistribution, not creation, and not sustainable once the well of public optimism runs dry which is surely to do without ever paying a sizable dividend.

I'm not sure but, can you opt for a REIT in your 401K... you, in any event, can or ought to be able to diversify your holdings... you defer at the marginal tax rate plus you are matched at up to 10% of salary... that is massive. And all tax deferred... Put it in what suits your planning but, the plan is or shouldn't be a sham. P/E ratios are no longer a good barometer since alot of gamble stocks do not have profit yet... and those that do... are called underperformers...

See this is where is I disagree with most new econ peoples today AKA the "new equity cultue". IMO Those who beleive the markets exist for goods and equity growth is done by perceptions and not production are bound to fail as they are starting to do since 2000. The traditional process of profit creation was made though capital formation and using well defined measures like profit to price relationships, not percetion, expectations and a whole host of other intangible expectative (is that a word) terms. In order to satisfy these "new equity" types they have develpoed new strategies like mergers, aquisitions, "restructerting", downsizing, outsourceing, creative accounting all in an effort to meet these grossly inflated profit expectations. It can't continue and IMO is headed for a train wreak and another depression. P/E ratios are good for suststained honest growth which we had for many years.


Anyway, currently my dad and I are developing a 2 1/2 arce lot with four homes before the housing time bomb. Should be done mid june hopefully. I elect the "social choice" funds in the almost forced retirement scam.

Microsoft

If I did this correctly you can see that they made a bit of profit and I'll be back to edit with comments.

edit.. I got to the link so you should be able to as well... for the quarters indicated they made a couple billion after tax... that is weath building... and the cash comes from there as well as stock sales...
I don't disagree with the notion of not trusting what can be manipulated... the market... but, the individual stocks stand on their own... and MS is going to start paying dividends... which must come from income... or they are called a redistribution of stock..

 

[LunarRay]

regarding the few posts above..

I am an advocate of closing our markets .... isolate... bring back our mfg. and consume american... not totaly but as needed... we are still the worlds biggest market.. I don't doubt that even with full employment we could consume our GDP and still import a bit..

We simply have lost that which made us strong.... our superior mfg... as the dollar weakens against the various nations that supply us their goods become either more expensive here or they lose their shirts... and Japan is doing that... the EU buys dollars or sells them to try and keep the dollar stable.. We must IMO regain strength through the power of our mfg base and we can tell the world to do as we bid... The only concen I have is how far we have gotten and how dependent we are on the China market etc... we prostitute ouselves to get orders from foreign companies for what technological devices we still make... but, mainly those foreign made devices that we peddle.... It is sad...

ISOLATE DIVIDE AND CONTROL....

 

[Tripleshot]

Originally posted by: HJD1
regarding the few posts above..

I am an advocate of closing our markets .... isolate... bring back our mfg. and consume american... not totaly but as needed... we are still the worlds biggest market.. I don't doubt that even with full employment we could consume our GDP and still import a bit..

We simply have lost that which made us strong.... our superior mfg... as the dollar weakens against the various nations that supply us their goods become either more expensive here or they lose their shirts... and Japan is doing that... the EU buys dollars or sells them to try and keep the dollar stable.. We must IMO regain strength through the power of our mfg base and we can tell the world to do as we bid... The only concen I have is how far we have gotten and how dependent we are on the China market etc... we prostitute ouselves to get orders from foreign companies for what technological devices we still make... but, mainly those foreign made devices that we peddle.... It is sad...

ISOLATE DIVIDE AND CONTROL....

I have been a proponent of this idea since NAFTA was inacted by myopic greedy bastyards that sold out our economy for golden parachutes and backroom profitering. Reality is though, the goods we use are built from cheap labor. The profits are given to the shareholders or corporate upper management. Ask them to spring for paying living wages to US workers to produce those goods, and they will balk in a heartbeat. You will pry that greed ill-gotton boooty from their cold dead hands. We began this spiral down to economic destuction long ago. The genie is out of the bottle. He aint' goin' back in.

Buy real estate. Hold it for posterity. capitilize on every inch you own. Build condos, apartments, commerical structures. And invest in the people(co's) that support that industry. Contactors, utilities, people who make power tools and ladders. That should be stable and reliable for a while. A long while.

 

[Zebo]

I am not an accountant but to me it's easy to see HJD1 the tools Microsoft (and many others) are using inflate thier earnings. This has been discussed like forever in the value investors forum I visit (at the fool BTW). It, like enron, like worldcom etc is using it's ability to pay wages and other expenses in stock rather than cash. All it takes to make new stock is a photocopier not sales as paying cash would do. The IRS then allows deductions for paying employees and vendors with stock as they do with cash yet they don't require they be accounted for as an expense to the income statement. It's phantom wealth being created here.

Link

 

[Zebo]

Hey triple the problem with that land idea is without jobs it won't matter how low the FED lowers the intrest rate, people won't be able to buy homes even at no intrest rate. We will have to make things again to stop the hemmorageing of our weath. We can either accept living as they do in China, Mexico etc to bring the factories/call centers/accountants back, or put massive restrictions on the goods comming in so companies are forced to hire Americans to make thier goods. I know which one I prefer. Problem is I'm not rich enough to get the whores in congressess ear.

 

[LunarRay]

Quote by Tripleshot

ISOLATE DIVIDE AND CONTROL....[/quote]

I have been a proponent of this idea since NAFTA was inacted by myopic greedy bastyards that sold out our economy for golden parachutes and backroom profitering. Reality is though, the goods we use are built from cheap labor. The profits are given to the shareholders or corporate upper management. Ask them to spring for paying living wages to US workers to produce those goods, and they will balk in a heartbeat. You will pry that greed ill-gotton boooty from their cold dead hands. We began this spiral down to economic destuction long ago. The genie is out of the bottle. He aint' goin' back in.

Buy real estate. Hold it for posterity. capitilize on every inch you own. Build condos, apartments, commerical structures. And invest in the people(co's) that support that industry. Contactors, utilities, people who make power tools and ladders. That should be stable and reliable for a while. A long while.

[/quote]

Well... in reality all things WILL reach equilibrium in time... Sure the things we buy now are made with 1.00 per hour labor... and if we closed our market they would starve... and all sorts of mayhem would ensue... I agree... BUT, over time we could start some where with some product base and simply buy american... this is demand side econ. this demand would create investment in the mfg of that product... so how do you create the demand... tax credit for the product.. remember solar power .... it would have worked... if you direct tax credits to the consumer of say 500 billion to purchase 3 or 4 thrillion worth of gizmos you will create the supply the jobs the taxes the non payment of welfare or unemployment plus the service industry etc...

Dead land makes no jobs.... but, does insure the asset will be there in 50 years save a quake or so.
I again advocate isolation with moderation... to the extent necessary to keep the world at peace.
but, do expect the mfg to come back home in time...
If a sneaker cost 100$ and was american made... Jordan would not have gotten 60$ in fees for wearing them.. but, they would perform all the same... we need a better mkt. program... still cost 100$but more jobs might be created...

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: Carbonyl
I am not an accountant but to me it's easy to see HJD1 the tools Microsoft (and many others) are using inflate thier earnings. This has been discussed like forever in the value investors forum I visit (at the fool BTW). It, like enron, like worldcom etc is using it's ability to pay wages and other expenses in stock rather than cash. All it takes to make new stock is a photocopier not sales as paying cash would do. The IRS then allows deductions for paying employees and vendors with stock as they do with cash yet they don't require they be accounted for as an expense to the income statement. It's phantom wealth being created here.

Link

A quick point... Lets say all the numbers are phony except the Cash and liquid assets you can count them... and the liabilities are accurate... the results came from somewhere...
If you can verify the existance of the assets you proove the BS which in this case is an easy one.
Microsoft make software.... one copy that they copy over and over and over..infinitum... so if you go to the store and see it.... at least you know they make a product.. etc..
Logic tells me that most computers use MS products.. I'm confident they report fairly the results of operations... may even underreport a bit.

 

[Tripleshot]

Originally posted by: HJD1
Quote by Tripleshot

ISOLATE DIVIDE AND CONTROL....

I have been a proponent of this idea since NAFTA was inacted by myopic greedy bastyards that sold out our economy for golden parachutes and backroom profitering. Reality is though, the goods we use are built from cheap labor. The profits are given to the shareholders or corporate upper management. Ask them to spring for paying living wages to US workers to produce those goods, and they will balk in a heartbeat. You will pry that greed ill-gotton boooty from their cold dead hands. We began this spiral down to economic destuction long ago. The genie is out of the bottle. He aint' goin' back in.

Buy real estate. Hold it for posterity. capitilize on every inch you own. Build condos, apartments, commerical structures. And invest in the people(co's) that support that industry. Contactors, utilities, people who make power tools and ladders. That should be stable and reliable for a while. A long while.

[/quote]

Well... in reality all things WILL reach equilibrium in time... Sure the things we buy now are made with 1.00 per hour labor... and if we closed our market they would starve... and all sorts of mayhem would ensue... I agree... BUT, over time we could start some where with some product base and simply buy american... this is demand side econ. this demand would create investment in the mfg of that product... so how do you create the demand... tax credit for the product.. remember solar power .... it would have worked... if you direct tax credits to the consumer of say 500 billion to purchase 3 or 4 thrillion worth of gizmos you will create the supply the jobs the taxes the non payment of welfare or unemployment plus the service industry etc...

Dead land makes no jobs.... but, does insure the asset will be there in 50 years save a quake or so.
I again advocate isolation with moderation... to the extent necessary to keep the world at peace.
but, do expect the mfg to come back home in time...
If a sneaker cost 100$ and was american made... Jordan would not have gotten 60$ in fees for wearing them.. but, they would perform all the same... we need a better mkt. program... still cost 100$but more jobs might be created...[/quote]


Gebbeebezzz, we sure think alike. And I am always called a flaming liberal, so that may not be a good thing for you. I buy American, every time I can and have a choice. There is the rub. You can't always tell anymore. I do not want total isolation. I want third world countries suppling these U.S. goons the profit from these cheap labor pools, to make products at higher profits for them, (they do not at all provide for cheaper consumer prices; again that being their poor, unfounded argument) and raise wages for their workers so they can pay for goods and services in the same style we ourselves are accustomed to; such as the 4 bedroom, two car garaged home, with the SUV and saturn parked inside. Let middle income arrive to those who build products for us. Then, maybe the companies might re open plants in the US again, when they see they can no longer profit unfairly on the backs of child labor and $.35/hr sweatshops. That would then put some of those 2.5 million (recorded) unemployed in the US back to work and paying taxes that could reduce this God forsaken national debt this bone head President has got us into. Tax breaks? What a hoot. We see how well the last tax give away helped, didn't we? Definition of insanity is doing the same thing twice, expecting different results.

Bush fans, are you hearing this? Bush isn't. Send him an email. Tell him to wake up and smell the coffee. This country is drowning in debt, loss of jobs, and broken promises from politicans. It's time for the citizens to take back the country. These damn politicans sure can't run it.

Did voters vote for Bush because of his superb business acumine? Or did they just vote to get rid of the Clinton regime? Makes ya wonder, doesn't? I think the latter. But judging the record, the Clinton years where a damn site better than now.

 

[LunarRay]

Quote by Tripleshot


Gebbeebezzz, we sure think alike. And I am always called a flaming liberal, so that may not be a good thing for you. I buy American, every time I can and have a choice. There is the rub. You can't always tell anymore. I do not want total isolation. I want third world countries that supply these U.S. goons that profit from this cheap labor pools to make products at higher profits for them, (that do not at all provide for cheaper consumer prices, again that being their poor, unfounded argument) to raise wages for their workers so they can pay for goods and services in the style we ourslevesare accustomed to, such as the 4 bedroom, two car garaged home, with the SUV and saturn parked inside. Let middle income arrive to those who buile products for us. Then maybe the companies might re open plants in the US again when they see they can no longer profit unfairly on the backs of child labor and $.35/hr sweatshops. That then would put some of those 2.5 million (recorded) unemployed in the US back to work and paying taxes that could reduce this God forsaken national debt this bone head President has got us into. Tax breaks? What a hoot. We see how well the last tax give away helped, didn't we? Definition of insanity is doing the samething twice, expecting different results.

I am a Social Liberal and a Fiscal Conservative

I say we know what the outflow will be for the social programs and Defense and debt service etc. probably to within a billion or so... We will and ought to fund without question that which this society must fund to care for the elderly, the infirmed, and the working poor. We should program the unemployed and capable workers into the stream... even if the wages are low.. they can't expect to drive... when they need to learn to walk... but, provide the means... and incentive to do so..
HOW TO FUND this is the issue... In a fiscally conservative manner... meaning balance the dam budget... to start. Ok well how.... big talk... how can you fund your massive outlay... and balance the budget...I am always asked... Well.... not the way we do business today.. that is obvious... things must change... and the only way I can see a light is to start to look for it.

Just a little point here about your above... if we made something here that was made by slave labor.. and the US worker made living wage... union scale.. we would have a body employed paying tax and not collecting benifits... a net savings to the coffers... the consumer would still pay the same price or nearly so on many items.. and we could send meals on wheels to the slave labor camp and feed them... but really, the country they reside in could mfg their own goods and sell it to the worker and their own economy grows.. eventually.

All economies can thrive if managed correctly... which is what NAFTA was suppose to do... get mexico to increase the work force so they would import our goods and consume them... right... I don't see anything close to that occuring. I don't even see the goods we mfg that we can sell to them... well .... we do make some stuff... or assemble it from imported parts..

Back to the point.. lets see.... where do we start... maybe.. Electronics... we use to be the best of the best in that field.. lets jump start the motherboard market... it obsoletes every week or so anyway... we'll open a company that makes the best of the best... now everyone wants that.. hire a few thousand workers, designer etc. and go for it... if the MB does not sell because of the cost delta then figure out the tax benifit and use it as a credit to the consumer and attach a flag to it An American Flag... it would be revenue neutral but a start... then all the goesintas become american made and the french could buy the asian model and have asian fries...

In Ireland where I lived and worked for two years '80-'81 there was a big push to buy Irish and by '93 they were up from the ashes and prosperous... still are... If an American won't support his country by buying American made even if it costs a bit more at the register remember it will cost more on April 15th. because we will spend to fund the programs... we have to.

We have the ideal time today with the Willing folks and use this to start boycotting french wine etc.. napa valley will build fifty new wineries if they see it is for real..

As an accountant I'm pretty good at counting the beans... If I sees em they are there If I don't they ain't... same goes for the budget and all the rest... it either is or isn't... Voodoo don't make shoes.. just scares folks outta them.