Serious changes are required in health care

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JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,948
126
Originally posted by: bamacre
I understand what you are saying. However, and tell me if I am wrong, it seems that you think I have suggested that what we have now is working and that we don't need to change the way health care operates. I am pretty sure that I have not suggested this. :D

Cool. That's the first step. Now come up with some good ideas that can be tested and debated and send them to your congressman because we need them.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,398
8,568
126
Originally posted by: JSt0rm01
I guess my above post answers your second question. No the government wont take away your ability to get the care you can afford. So I have answered your stupid little strawman questions. Would you like more education on the subject?

it might inadvertently happen, though. money for R&D will probably be diverted to areas of sure-recoupment because it's something that'd be covered under the gov't program.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
81
Originally posted by: ElFenix

how many twinkies do you think an unhealthy person might eat a week vs. a healthy person?

I think there are too many other variables needed to answer that question.

not to mention even one glass of wine a day might significantly increase cancer risk.

I did not know this. Link?

the biggest problem with it is that we may encourage unhealthy or less healthy alternative, wrongly believing they're healthy (like trans-fat laden margarine or enriched white bread).

That is a very interesting point. If everyone gets "free" health care, I would think some people would be more inclined to have unhealthy lifestyles.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,948
126
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: JSt0rm01
Would you like more education on the subject?

Oh please, carry on. :D

No no i think I'm done. ;)

you know i would probably feel the same way about all of this as you if I didn't end up knowing a lot of people who work in the medical field (one guys job is to deflect insurance patients from said doctor who takes cash only). There is something totally unfair about someone not paying into the system and still getting treatment or someone who doesn't take care of themselves going to the doctor all the time, but as we have found during our current economic problems, life isn't fair. I honestly believe that uhc will save us money.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,948
126
Originally posted by: ElFenix
Originally posted by: JSt0rm01
I guess my above post answers your second question. No the government wont take away your ability to get the care you can afford. So I have answered your stupid little strawman questions. Would you like more education on the subject?

it might inadvertently happen, though. money for R&D will probably be diverted to areas of sure-recoupment because it's something that'd be covered under the gov't program.

Most medical research is done by the NIH and then by peer review not political appointment. While many new medical patents are derived from this work (at that commercial point r&d goes towards a monetary goal) and one most show a valid reason as to why you are doing this work it is very broad. In fact the stimulus bill just added 8.1 billion dollars to the nih budget.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,948
126
Originally posted by: bamacre
That is a very interesting point. If everyone gets "free" health care, I would think some people would be more inclined to have unhealthy lifestyles.

Whats more unhealthy then waiting until your diabetes is so bad they have to chop your foot off? You see, you are thinking off the top of your head as to why UHC is bad. This isn't the best way to make policy for the nation :)
 

mattpegher

Platinum Member
Jun 18, 2006
2,203
0
71
First off, as some may be aware, I am an Emergency medicine physician in the US. I was in the top 5% of grads in undergraduate and had to compete for entrance to medical school. I then paid $150,000 in tuition which had accrued to $180,000 before I could earn a dime. While a resident I worked 80hr/week with about 36hr shifts every 6 days. I moonlighted to begin paying off my loans. For 4 years of residency I made about $26,000/year and was still $170,000 in debt when I finished residency. I work about 16 twelve hour shifts per month split 50/50 day/night. I have no sickdays (thats not paid sick days), short of being admitted to the hospital I must work my assigned shifts and you can't close an ER. I see between 24 and 50 patients per day depending on where I am. I get no lunch or breaks and often eat while charting. I often delay bathroom breaks due to heavy patient volume.

Is my work Ideal, hell no. But it is the most challanging form of medicine. I see everyone, rich or poor, insured or not, I don't even know a persons coverage unless they tell me due to some concern. I care about my patients and wish to provide the best care I can.

I have time and monitary expendures to maintain my ability to practice to the tune of 50 hours and $6000/year.

For this I am paid well by many standard but to date am still up to my eyeballs in debt.

You may say that I am not impartial but I also have 10 years of practice that tells me that if you remove the forces of capitalism from this equation, there will be consequenses.

First, those students who chose to enter the profession, if there is no incentive, will be of a lower caliber. You have to realize that these students are also considering other fields, business, law, etc, and the best will go to the field that offers the most for their future, both monitarily and lifestyle.

I have worked with doctors in UK and Austrailia with doctors without borders and will tell you that these men and women although often fine physicians work about half as hard as US physicians. If the fed started a national health agency such as that in UK, we would require a doubling of the physician force, and midlevel provider force. This would be difficult without lowering the standards for licensure.

Our ER is already inundated with patient who cannot see their physician for 2 weeks when they are sick. This would worsen significantly. Many people would be forced to see a midlevel provider which for many problem is adequate however health care dollars saved in physician salary will get eaten up with missed and undiagnosed disease. Without some expenditure of the patient, many will seek care for very minor causes, doubling the ER volumes causing a significant wait. (When I worked at Jackson Memorial ER in Miami, the average wait for non-lifethreating illness was 24hours due to the heavy indigent population)


So how do we fix it?
First, remove all effects of monopolization of the market. Insurance companies are making huge profits. Why? Because they sell there product only to groups. If my car insurance cost to much I can comparison shop, if they refuse to pay on a claim or insist on using used parts, or use the crappy repair shop, I can switch. Also remember that benifits are just money that is spent on your behalf, my employer gives all full time employees a stipend that pays $1250/month. I can choose to spend that on healthcare, retirement plan or get it as pay.

I see the collapse of the system everyday; patients that get worse because they can't get into thier primay doctors office, patients with pneumonia who cant afford the chest xray, patients who cant afford the right medicine, or stop meds due to finances, patients who come to the ER with no intension of paying the bill expecting the rest of us to cover them, Physicians leaving the hospital or going cash only, refusing to take call.

I am afraid that we have just entered the tunnel and the light at the end will not be seen for several decades, but worse yet there may not be any track in the tunnel.


 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
Thanks for your input mattpegher...very enlightening. Im not going to claim to be an expert like you, but I do come from a medicine family so know a little. You've raised some concerns I think havent been addressed, mostly how to deal with the influx of new patients. It is my understanding more doctors are leaving the field than are coming in, and I know thats true of RN's. Its a serious issue. Which leads to your point of lowering licensure requirements. Do we really want this? I dont think theres a simple solution, but from what Ive read, listened to, and heard from RN's and docs as yourself, UHC is going to make everything about our healthcare system worse.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,890
55,160
136
Unfortunately mattpegher I know you are at least completely incorrect on your estimation of doctor loads/requirements. The US has approximately 15% fewer docters per capita than the average OECD country, so your contention that we would require such a vast increase simply isn't supported by the facts.
 

quest55720

Golden Member
Nov 3, 2004
1,339
0
0
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Unfortunately mattpegher I know you are at least completely incorrect on your estimation of doctor loads/requirements. The US has approximately 15% fewer docters per capita than the average OECD country, so your contention that we would require such a vast increase simply isn't supported by the facts.

It depends on where you live just like every thing else location location location. In lots of rural areas there is a major shortage of doctors and nurses. Mattpegher could very well be in a smaller market so that is his prospective. I know our hospital gets patients from many many miles away because of a large rural area outside the city we are located in.

I personally hope the future is more of the quick clinic model for a lots of peoples care. Many people come in for things like minor burns or a cold. Most you can just walk right in before you go shopping. Many have on site testing for many common things. These places are a win win as far as I am concerned. They are low cost for both the provider and patient. Just need the public to get used to using these for when they get a cold instead of waiting till it is pneumonia and visits the ER.

That and going for the preventive model with screenings for things like heart disease and cancer. Part of that will be changing the publics opinion on the health care system. To many people put things off hoping it will get better on its own. The excuse could be they are to busy to be scene or just fear of the doctor.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Unfortunately mattpegher I know you are at least completely incorrect on your estimation of doctor loads/requirements. The US has approximately 15% fewer docters per capita than the average OECD country, so your contention that we would require such a vast increase simply isn't supported by the facts.

His estimation may be high, but he's right about everything else. We are still going to need more practitioners of all kinds.

Besides you are forgetting that to provide care to the nation as a whole, we need more physicians. We have a lower population density, but there aren't many places which have no need.

Of course the whole thing can be fixed by instituting a flat tax of probably about 40%. That would give you "free" health care.

The most remarkable misunderstanding is about how much UHC would save. We're talking a fairly small difference between any conceivable government run model and private insurance. I'm sorry, you can't take a dollar and buy 5 gallons of gas with it by "economizing".

A government run health would cost a great deal more than people think.
 

Sureshot324

Diamond Member
Feb 4, 2003
3,370
0
71
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Unfortunately mattpegher I know you are at least completely incorrect on your estimation of doctor loads/requirements. The US has approximately 15% fewer docters per capita than the average OECD country, so your contention that we would require such a vast increase simply isn't supported by the facts.

His estimation may be high, but he's right about everything else. We are still going to need more practitioners of all kinds.

Besides you are forgetting that to provide care to the nation as a whole, we need more physicians. We have a lower population density, but there aren't many places which have no need.

Of course the whole thing can be fixed by instituting a flat tax of probably about 40%. That would give you "free" health care.

The most remarkable misunderstanding is about how much UHC would save. We're talking a fairly small difference between any conceivable government run model and private insurance. I'm sorry, you can't take a dollar and buy 5 gallons of gas with it by "economizing".

A government run health would cost a great deal more than people think.

The US may have fewer doctors per capita then most other industrialized nations, but it actually spends a greater percentage of it's GDP on health then most of those same nations. Not only do US citizens have to pay for the doctors, hospitals, etc, but they are paying for the insurance company's profit (and they ARE making a nice profit) and the running expenses of all these different insurance companies.

Also, doctors in the US make ridiculously high salaries compared to other industrialized countries since the private hospitals compete over hiring them.

Canada, Australia, Japan (hybrid of public and private health care), and most of Europe have superior health care systems than the US, so there's no reason why public health care can't work in the US as well.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
Originally posted by: Sureshot324
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Unfortunately mattpegher I know you are at least completely incorrect on your estimation of doctor loads/requirements. The US has approximately 15% fewer docters per capita than the average OECD country, so your contention that we would require such a vast increase simply isn't supported by the facts.

His estimation may be high, but he's right about everything else. We are still going to need more practitioners of all kinds.

Besides you are forgetting that to provide care to the nation as a whole, we need more physicians. We have a lower population density, but there aren't many places which have no need.

Of course the whole thing can be fixed by instituting a flat tax of probably about 40%. That would give you "free" health care.

The most remarkable misunderstanding is about how much UHC would save. We're talking a fairly small difference between any conceivable government run model and private insurance. I'm sorry, you can't take a dollar and buy 5 gallons of gas with it by "economizing".

A government run health would cost a great deal more than people think.

The US may have fewer doctors per capita then most other industrialized nations, but it actually spends a greater percentage of it's GDP on health then most of those same nations. Not only do US citizens have to pay for the doctors, hospitals, etc, but they are paying for the insurance company's profit (and they ARE making a nice profit) and the running expenses of all these different insurance companies.

Also, doctors in the US make ridiculously high salaries compared to other industrialized countries since the private hospitals compete over hiring them.

Canada, Australia, Japan (hybrid of public and private health care), and most of Europe have superior health care systems than the US, so there's no reason why public health care can't work in the US as well.

Considering the years it takes to become a physician in the US, 150K for a GP is hardly "ridiculously high".

I couldn't advise my children to go into health care now, and that's too bad. My daughter would make a good physician, but with the current situation she'd be happier doing something else. They'll just have to lower the standards and you'll have cheap docs.
 

JohnnyGage

Senior member
Feb 18, 2008
699
0
71
Originally posted by: Phokus
Originally posted by: Skoorb
I agree that it's suboptimal. The topic is so complex and so emotional at this point that it's very difficult for a lot of people to even debate what a prudent solution is.

Republicans will just scream SOCIALISM! at the top of their lungs throughout eternity and nothing will get done. Don't worry, we won't ever get an efficient healthcare system thanks to them.

Kinda like Democrats screaming RACIST! at the top of their lungs, or am I exaggerating.

Oh wait...

http://forums.anandtech.com/me...=2285885&enterthread=y
 

JohnnyGage

Senior member
Feb 18, 2008
699
0
71
Originally posted by: Phokus
Originally posted by: soccerballtux
Originally posted by: winnar111
Step 1: Spent $600 billion on health care
Step 2: Find out actual costs are about 4x as much.
Step 3: Act shocked that step 2 happened.
Step 4: Cut out so called 'non essential' services and begin to ration everything else.

Maybe we can skip to the end.

So true it's sad. This is how it's worked in every other socialized healthcare system. Yet somehow nobody listens to this fact.

Yet, every other 1st world socialized health care system cost half as much per capita than ours does, and they provide for EVERYONE whereas we leave out 50+ million

Funny how that works.

It's not that simple.
 

JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
26,271
7
81
Why aren't the lefties yelling "darwin" on the fat fuckers and genetically weak who burden healthcare?
 
Jul 10, 2007
12,041
3
0
Originally posted by: soccerballtux
If the government is paying for my healthcare, does that mean they dictate what kind of workout lifestyle I can and cannot have? Does it mean they're going to charge me more because I choose to do my cardio through sprints rather than jogging (wear on knees+huge oxidative load) or swimming (huge oxidative load)? Does it mean they'll say I can't drink beer? Does it mean I can't smoke my pipe once per month?

If the government is paying for these things then it is obligated to the taxpayer to make sure everybody is living their life correctly. Of course this will involve things like drinking and smoking and won't involve things like being fat, because there are a ton of fat people.
Bam, loss of freedom; it isn't hard to see how it will happen.

stfu plz, thx.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
To encourage a healthier lifestyle all Refrigerators should come with mirrors on the door and all windows should be reflective.
 

0marTheZealot

Golden Member
Apr 5, 2004
1,692
0
0
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Originally posted by: Sureshot324
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Unfortunately mattpegher I know you are at least completely incorrect on your estimation of doctor loads/requirements. The US has approximately 15% fewer docters per capita than the average OECD country, so your contention that we would require such a vast increase simply isn't supported by the facts.

His estimation may be high, but he's right about everything else. We are still going to need more practitioners of all kinds.

Besides you are forgetting that to provide care to the nation as a whole, we need more physicians. We have a lower population density, but there aren't many places which have no need.

Of course the whole thing can be fixed by instituting a flat tax of probably about 40%. That would give you "free" health care.

The most remarkable misunderstanding is about how much UHC would save. We're talking a fairly small difference between any conceivable government run model and private insurance. I'm sorry, you can't take a dollar and buy 5 gallons of gas with it by "economizing".

A government run health would cost a great deal more than people think.

The US may have fewer doctors per capita then most other industrialized nations, but it actually spends a greater percentage of it's GDP on health then most of those same nations. Not only do US citizens have to pay for the doctors, hospitals, etc, but they are paying for the insurance company's profit (and they ARE making a nice profit) and the running expenses of all these different insurance companies.

Also, doctors in the US make ridiculously high salaries compared to other industrialized countries since the private hospitals compete over hiring them.

Canada, Australia, Japan (hybrid of public and private health care), and most of Europe have superior health care systems than the US, so there's no reason why public health care can't work in the US as well.

Considering the years it takes to become a physician in the US, 150K for a GP is hardly "ridiculously high".

I couldn't advise my children to go into health care now, and that's too bad. My daughter would make a good physician, but with the current situation she'd be happier doing something else. They'll just have to lower the standards and you'll have cheap docs.

Well, Europe also has high standards for their doctors. It's not like anyone who picks up a medical book, reads it and passes an exam gets to practice. They have a vigorous program that is comparable to the US.

Secondly, I don't where Matt practices, but in Chicago, you can probably pull down 250k/year at any hospital. The major cities are a boom for Drs, the pay is so high. Of course, the workload is crazy as well. I have a couple friends who are in residency and I haven't heard from them in like a year.

The US healthcare system is in shambles. There is no easy fix and we should stop looking for one. Any solution will require sacrifices from everyone, but at least it will do the most good. Right now, anyone on this board is one diagnosis away from bankruptcy. That's all it takes and when you are fighting for your life, you don't want to spare any expense, but unfortunately, a lot of people have to make that choice.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Originally posted by: Sureshot324
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Unfortunately mattpegher I know you are at least completely incorrect on your estimation of doctor loads/requirements. The US has approximately 15% fewer docters per capita than the average OECD country, so your contention that we would require such a vast increase simply isn't supported by the facts.

His estimation may be high, but he's right about everything else. We are still going to need more practitioners of all kinds.

Besides you are forgetting that to provide care to the nation as a whole, we need more physicians. We have a lower population density, but there aren't many places which have no need.

Of course the whole thing can be fixed by instituting a flat tax of probably about 40%. That would give you "free" health care.

The most remarkable misunderstanding is about how much UHC would save. We're talking a fairly small difference between any conceivable government run model and private insurance. I'm sorry, you can't take a dollar and buy 5 gallons of gas with it by "economizing".

A government run health would cost a great deal more than people think.

The US may have fewer doctors per capita then most other industrialized nations, but it actually spends a greater percentage of it's GDP on health then most of those same nations. Not only do US citizens have to pay for the doctors, hospitals, etc, but they are paying for the insurance company's profit (and they ARE making a nice profit) and the running expenses of all these different insurance companies.

Also, doctors in the US make ridiculously high salaries compared to other industrialized countries since the private hospitals compete over hiring them.

Canada, Australia, Japan (hybrid of public and private health care), and most of Europe have superior health care systems than the US, so there's no reason why public health care can't work in the US as well.

Considering the years it takes to become a physician in the US, 150K for a GP is hardly "ridiculously high".

I couldn't advise my children to go into health care now, and that's too bad. My daughter would make a good physician, but with the current situation she'd be happier doing something else. They'll just have to lower the standards and you'll have cheap docs.

Well, Europe also has high standards for their doctors. It's not like anyone who picks up a medical book, reads it and passes an exam gets to practice. They have a vigorous program that is comparable to the US.

Secondly, I don't where Matt practices, but in Chicago, you can probably pull down 250k/year at any hospital. The major cities are a boom for Drs, the pay is so high. Of course, the workload is crazy as well. I have a couple friends who are in residency and I haven't heard from them in like a year.

The US healthcare system is in shambles. There is no easy fix and we should stop looking for one. Any solution will require sacrifices from everyone, but at least it will do the most good. Right now, anyone on this board is one diagnosis away from bankruptcy. That's all it takes and when you are fighting for your life, you don't want to spare any expense, but unfortunately, a lot of people have to make that choice.

Europe also has an entirely different economic system. If you look at the total compensation that physicians get, with retirement, vacation etc I should be surprised that it's much different.

Here, you don't get the social program benefits that they do in, say France. If you start cutting physician pay to match that of people who require a lot less education, you'll find people going elsewhere. Although it's true that physicians ought not to practice just for the money, neither is it fair to expect them to be financial martyrs. I wonder what people who are programmers and engineers would say if their pay was cut proportionately for "the greater good"?

While there's certainly ways to cut costs, expecting health care providers to bend over isn't going to work. There's already a shortage of nurses and pharmacists and the like. Offering them a 1/3 or half pay cut will get you nothing but poor care.
 

Nemesis 1

Lifer
Dec 30, 2006
11,366
2
0
What a fraud being perpetrated against the American public.

I am all for. Government health care . And would gladly pay for it IF.

My car insurance went down . Since I have health care . Insurance shouldn't have to pay. If I know longer have to pay company health care. Since I am already insured by Government Health care . I Don't need to pay for any other Health Care. Insurance wise. I may want more but shouldn't need it.

Its not that way . The only ones benefit are people who refuse or can't help themselves. I don't want to pay for -------- americas health care . I am sorry but I fill real bad towards this lot. Almost all I know which are a lot . Most are criminals. Their are good ones but way not enough . Sad thing is the ------ -------American is going to pay the price

No this is just one of many many new taxes being passed on to Middle America. If you come back down to earth after seeing the Messiah. You would be aware of these new taxes. They even put a tax on the air we brieth. Carbon tax . In all there are about 100 new taxes coming. But not INCOME TAX. LOL LOL LOL. You should read about outher tax changes rather than stare at income tax. THe Carbon tax . I love that one the most. Big brother I mean business passing the buck off on to middle America. Not the Rich.

The Car tax is cool also . Thats were you get taxed on the number of miles you travel.

Now if that was a fair tax . It would Also apply to Air miles. But that would hurt big business.

The list is hugh look into it.