Serious changes are required in health care

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: JSt0rm01
He's a child because he is thinking of some weird Orwellian 1984 future and applying it to UHC.

I could say hes a fucking idiot. I was being nice.

I see. So you are suggesting that government can pay for health care no matter how unhealthy American lifestyles are to be? That it is rather immature to think that government would impede on an American's choices which effected his/her health?

 

[JSt0rm]

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: quest55720
That is why it starts at home by leading healthier lifestyles. Until that happens the system will be broke.

And how exactly can that be fixed? Massive taxes on twinkies? Arresting people for being too fat? No, but seriously, you can't force people to be healthier. Right?

Everybody I talk to thats against uhc doesnt understand the issue very well. They think the military is goig to come in and put a combat boot on there back a gun in thier face and force them to eat bean sprouts.

The strain is on our healthcare providers RIGHT now. With out preventative care and UHC YOU are being billed RIGHT NOW for some uninsured person. How do you think the hospitals recoup the loses from the emergency room? They charge you and your health insurance.

 

[JSt0rm]

Originally posted by: bamacre
the same old shit

Dude you have tunnel vision.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: JSt0rm01
He's a child because he is thinking of some weird Orwellian 1984 future and applying it to UHC.

I could say hes a fucking idiot. I was being nice.

I see. So you are suggesting that government can pay for health care no matter how unhealthy American lifestyles are to be? That it is rather immature to think that government would impede on an American's choices which effected his/her health?

We are ALREADY PAYING FOR THESE UNHEALTHY LIFESTYLES.

 

[JSt0rm]

Originally posted by: eskimospy
We are ALREADY PAYING FOR THESE UNHEALTHY LIFESTYLES.

They don't get it. They never will. It is impossible for them to see the issue as it IS, they only see it how they want to see it.

 

[SirStev0]

Originally posted by: quest55720

Originally posted by: Phokus

Originally posted by: soccerballtux

Originally posted by: winnar111
Step 1: Spent $600 billion on health care
Step 2: Find out actual costs are about 4x as much.
Step 3: Act shocked that step 2 happened.
Step 4: Cut out so called 'non essential' services and begin to ration everything else.

Maybe we can skip to the end.

So true it's sad. This is how it's worked in every other socialized healthcare system. Yet somehow nobody listens to this fact.

Yet, every other 1st world socialized health care system cost half as much per capita than ours does, and they provide for EVERYONE whereas we leave out 50+ million

Funny how that works.

That is why it starts at home by leading healthier lifestyles. Until that happens the system will be broke. It is just not providers or insurance companies that are the problem. We need to work on reforming all 3. Get the cost of insurance down where more people can afford it.

You need to change the mindset of people first and healthier lifestyle will follow.

One of the benefits of socialized medicine IS people taking advantage of the system. It is the ability to be proactive about ones health.

So you have a weird mole on your back. Been there forever, but recently you swear it got bigger and looks funny. In today's system your average person will let it go until next time they go see the doctor, if they have the chance in the 13 minutes (on average) a doctor has to spend with his patient. Couple years down the road that could be full blown melanoma, costing thousands and junking up the whole system.
Alternatively, with socialized medicine, you make the appointment and take advantage of the system. You get a biopsy. They run some tests and you go from there. Taking advantage of the system has just potentially saved a bunch of money.



With all that said, I will guarantee you that any attempt at socialized medicine in the United States will be an absolute travesty. It will be worse than welfare, tax codes, and social security combined. It is almost better to just let our current privatized system do whatever it wants until it dies and we spend a year or two dealing with that aftermath than to waste billions of dollars on a halfassed quick fix compromise. There are way to many people that still believe insurance for profit (privatized) is a good idea and even more who are so caught up in a dogma to admit it. On top of that there is too many special interest groups and politicians sticking their nose in it.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: JSt0rm01

Originally posted by: bamacre
the same old shit

Dude you have tunnel vision.

How about answering my questions?

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: JSt0rm01
He's a child because he is thinking of some weird Orwellian 1984 future and applying it to UHC.

I could say hes a fucking idiot. I was being nice.

I see. So you are suggesting that government can pay for health care no matter how unhealthy American lifestyles are to be? That it is rather immature to think that government would impede on an American's choices which effected his/her health?

We are ALREADY PAYING FOR THESE UNHEALTHY LIFESTYLES.

I didn't say we weren't. And all I did was ask two questions.

 

[quest55720]

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: quest55720
That is why it starts at home by leading healthier lifestyles. Until that happens the system will be broke.

And how exactly can that be fixed? Massive taxes on twinkies? Arresting people for being too fat? No, but seriously, you can't force people to be healthier. Right?

Hell why not if those Twinkie are causing the cost of health care to go up. It would only be fair to the people who lead a healthier lifestyle to pay less as a reward. Hell give tax credits to people who work out to encourage it. I think it is BS I would pay the same or more than someone who eats like shit. I guess Obama is going to reward those who bought to much house so why not reward those who eat like shit right.

 

[SirStev0]

Originally posted by: JSt0rm01

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: quest55720
That is why it starts at home by leading healthier lifestyles. Until that happens the system will be broke.

And how exactly can that be fixed? Massive taxes on twinkies? Arresting people for being too fat? No, but seriously, you can't force people to be healthier. Right?

Everybody I talk to thats against uhc doesnt understand the issue very well. They think the military is goig to come in and put a combat boot on there back a gun in thier face and force them to eat bean sprouts.

The strain is on our healthcare providers RIGHT now. With out preventative care and UHC YOU are being billed RIGHT NOW for some uninsured person. How do you think the hospitals recoup the loses from the emergency room? They charge you and your health insurance.

Don't tell them that. They were enjoying the fantasy world where the bums without health insurance had no effect on them.

 

[JSt0rm]

Originally posted by: bamacre
So you are suggesting that government can pay for health care no matter how unhealthy American lifestyles are to be? We already doThat it is rather immature to think that government would impede on an American's choices which effected his/her health?This is a statement not a question

See bolded. You don't have an argument. you might as well just say you work for big pharma or something. Then I would at least understand your position. I know you think you are a libertarian and you are arguing based on that philosophy but its wrong.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: quest55720

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: quest55720
That is why it starts at home by leading healthier lifestyles. Until that happens the system will be broke.

And how exactly can that be fixed? Massive taxes on twinkies? Arresting people for being too fat? No, but seriously, you can't force people to be healthier. Right?

Hell why not if those Twinkie are causing the cost of health care to go up. It would only be fair to the people who lead a healthier lifestyle to pay less as a reward. Hell give tax credits to people who work out to encourage it. I think it is BS I would pay the same or more than someone who eats like shit. I guess Obama is going to reward those who bought to much house so why not reward those who eat like shit right.

Interesting.

So we have one guy here who says it is stupid to think that government would punish people for eating too many twinkies. And another guy here who says government should punish people for eating two many twinkies.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: quest55720

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: quest55720
That is why it starts at home by leading healthier lifestyles. Until that happens the system will be broke.

And how exactly can that be fixed? Massive taxes on twinkies? Arresting people for being too fat? No, but seriously, you can't force people to be healthier. Right?

Hell why not if those Twinkie are causing the cost of health care to go up. It would only be fair to the people who lead a healthier lifestyle to pay less as a reward. Hell give tax credits to people who work out to encourage it. I think it is BS I would pay the same or more than someone who eats like shit. I guess Obama is going to reward those who bought to much house so why not reward those who eat like shit right.

you could earmark taxes on refined sugars and carbs, along with cigs and alcohol, for the medical coverage.

further, if actual gym class were to return to k-12 education that'd help a lot.

 

[SirStev0]

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: quest55720

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: quest55720
That is why it starts at home by leading healthier lifestyles. Until that happens the system will be broke.

And how exactly can that be fixed? Massive taxes on twinkies? Arresting people for being too fat? No, but seriously, you can't force people to be healthier. Right?

Hell why not if those Twinkie are causing the cost of health care to go up. It would only be fair to the people who lead a healthier lifestyle to pay less as a reward. Hell give tax credits to people who work out to encourage it. I think it is BS I would pay the same or more than someone who eats like shit. I guess Obama is going to reward those who bought to much house so why not reward those who eat like shit right.

Interesting.

So we have one guy here who says it is stupid to think that government would punish people for eating too many twinkies. And another guy here who says government should punish people for eating two many twinkies.

More interesting is the guy asking for a non-twinkie eating tax credit is the same guy who probably has a issue with taxes on oil, tobacco, and alcohol and outlawing trans fats.

 

[JSt0rm]

If you walk into an emergency room and say something about any of these

* Sudden numbness or weakness of the face, arm or leg, especially on one side of the body
* Sudden confusion, trouble speaking or understanding
* Sudden trouble seeing in one or both eyes
* Sudden trouble walking, dizziness, loss of balance or coordination
* Sudden, severe headache with no known cause

they don't fucking care about your insurance. you are immediately given the proper expensive care. If you don't have health insurance they bill you and you go bankrupt (because thats what happens) In walks Bamacre with the same symptoms and healthcare and guess who pays for who?

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: JSt0rm01

Originally posted by: bamacre
So you are suggesting that government can pay for health care no matter how unhealthy American lifestyles are to be? We already doThat it is rather immature to think that government would impede on an American's choices which effected his/her health?This is a statement not a question

See bolded. You don't have an argument. you might as well just say you work for big pharma or something. Then I would at least understand your position. I know you think you are a libertarian and you are arguing based on that philosophy but its wrong.

My second sentence was actually a question. You're right, I wasn't proposing a solution. I was just asking you questions. Which you didn't really answer.

 

[SirStev0]

Originally posted by: JSt0rm01
If you walk into an emergency room and say something about any of these

* Sudden numbness or weakness of the face, arm or leg, especially on one side of the body
* Sudden confusion, trouble speaking or understanding
* Sudden trouble seeing in one or both eyes
* Sudden trouble walking, dizziness, loss of balance or coordination
* Sudden, severe headache with no known cause

they don't fucking care about your insurance. you are immediately given the proper expensive care. If you don't have health insurance they bill you and you go bankrupt (because thats what happens) In walks Bamacre with the same symptoms and healthcare and guess who pays for who?

Why are you declaring war on fantasy world. It had such a happy population convinced that cutting off all the dregs of society would somehow save them money.

 

[quest55720]

Originally posted by: SirStev0

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: quest55720

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: quest55720
That is why it starts at home by leading healthier lifestyles. Until that happens the system will be broke.

And how exactly can that be fixed? Massive taxes on twinkies? Arresting people for being too fat? No, but seriously, you can't force people to be healthier. Right?

Hell why not if those Twinkie are causing the cost of health care to go up. It would only be fair to the people who lead a healthier lifestyle to pay less as a reward. Hell give tax credits to people who work out to encourage it. I think it is BS I would pay the same or more than someone who eats like shit. I guess Obama is going to reward those who bought to much house so why not reward those who eat like shit right.

Interesting.

So we have one guy here who says it is stupid to think that government would punish people for eating too many twinkies. And another guy here who says government should punish people for eating two many twinkies.

More interesting is the guy asking for a non-twinkie eating tax credit is the same guy who probably has a issue with taxes on oil, tobacco, and alcohol and outlawing trans fats.

I have no problems with taxes on booze and smokes but gas tax should be limited to the amount it takes to maintain the roads.

Who says outlawing people could eat all the shit they want. Just like they can smoke or drink all they want. They just have to pay more for that right.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: ElFenix
you could earmark taxes on refined sugars and carbs, along with cigs and alcohol, for the medical coverage.

But don't you want to punish only those who are leading an unhealthy lifestyle? I mean, if you just tax the product, you're still punishing people who consume those goods in a healthy manner. If someone drinks a glass of wine per day, or eats one piece of cake or one candy bar per week, for example, that's not an unhealthy lifestyle.

 

[JSt0rm]

and let me add again that for all of you who think you wont get the best care in this system drumroll please....YOU ALREADY DONT!! The best only take cash because they don't want to deal with insurance. So if you don't have 75k cash to take care of that brain tumor with the top physician at cedars in Beverly hills that will extend your life 3 months your done. You see the system is already in place for those who can afford it. That pillowtop isn't going away. It's funny that people who just have insurance think they have this kind of coverage now and some how UHC is going to take it away. lulz.

 

[SirStev0]

Originally posted by: JSt0rm01
and let me add again that for all of you who think you wont get the best care in this system drumroll please....YOU ALREADY DONT!! The best only take cash because they don't want to deal with insurance. So if you don't have 75k cash to take care of that brain tumor with the top physician at cedars in Beverly hills that will extend your life 3 months your done. You see the system is already in place for those who can afford it. That pillowtop isn't going away. It's funny that people who just have insurance think they have this kind of coverage now and some how UHC is going to take it away. lulz.

Even better, next you're probably going to talk about all the problem with medicare coverage and the general, basic, bare minimum coverage that it supplies so that only when Grannies diabetes gets so bad that she has to undergo an incredibly costly surgery to remove her foot (which Medicare WILL cover) is anything every really done.

This is my point exactly. Too many people lack the foresight or the willingness to consider all aspects of the situation for any form of socialized medicine to work in today's America.

 

[JSt0rm]

I guess my above post answers your second question. No the government wont take away your ability to get the care you can afford. So I have answered your stupid little strawman questions. Would you like more education on the subject?

 

[SirStev0]

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: ElFenix
you could earmark taxes on refined sugars and carbs, along with cigs and alcohol, for the medical coverage.

But don't you want to punish only those who are leading an unhealthy lifestyle? I mean, if you just tax the product, you're still punishing people who consume those goods in a healthy manner. If someone drinks a glass of wine per day, or eats one piece of cake or one candy bar per week, for example, that's not an unhealthy lifestyle.

and they won't be paying that much. that is the point on a tax. it is based on a percentage.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: JSt0rm01
If you walk into an emergency room and say something about any of these

* Sudden numbness or weakness of the face, arm or leg, especially on one side of the body
* Sudden confusion, trouble speaking or understanding
* Sudden trouble seeing in one or both eyes
* Sudden trouble walking, dizziness, loss of balance or coordination
* Sudden, severe headache with no known cause

they don't fucking care about your insurance. you are immediately given the proper expensive care. If you don't have health insurance they bill you and you go bankrupt (because thats what happens) In walks Bamacre with the same symptoms and healthcare and guess who pays for who?

I understand what you are saying. However, and tell me if I am wrong, it seems that you think I have suggested that what we have now is working and that we don't need to change the way health care operates. I am pretty sure that I have not suggested this.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: bamacre

But don't you want to punish only those who are leading an unhealthy lifestyle? I mean, if you just tax the product, you're still punishing people who consume those goods in a healthy manner. If someone drinks a glass of wine per day, or eats one piece of cake or one candy bar per week, for example, that's not an unhealthy lifestyle.

how many twinkies do you think an unhealthy person might eat a week vs. a healthy person?

not to mention even one glass of wine a day might significantly increase cancer risk.


the biggest problem with it is that we may encourage unhealthy or less healthy alternative, wrongly believing they're healthy (like trans-fat laden margarine or enriched white bread).