Separation of church and state?

Viper1j

Diamond Member
Jul 31, 2018
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Not in Alabama!

https://www.npr.org/2019/06/20/7345...hare&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social

New Alabama Law Permits Church To Hire Its Own Police Force

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Updated June 21 at 11:11 a.m. ET

Alabama Gov. Kay Ivey signed into law Wednesday a measure granting the Briarwood Presbyterian Church the right to set up its own law enforcement agency to cover its sanctuary, seminary and sprawling school campuses, despite criticism that the measure was unconstitutional.

A similar measure, first proposed four years ago, was dropped in 2017 after opponents argued that it grants government power to a religious institution in violation of the Establishment Clause.

Church officials say they need their own police force to protect its 4,100 members, 2,000 students and two campuses in neighboring Jefferson and Shelby counties, especially in light of armed attacks on schools and churches.

Critics say the mega-church already has private security and under the new law it would gain state authority that could be abused if officers are answerable only to church officials.

Randall Marshall, the executive director of the ACLU of Alabama, told The Associated Press he expects the law, which goes into effect in the fall, will be challenged in the courts.


Other critics say the church, which is a member of the conservative Presbyterian Church in America denomination, has a history of racism and homophobia.

Church officials said current Alabama state law "allows certain educational institutions to appoint and employ one or more suitable persons to act as police officers to keep off intruders and prevent trespass upon the institution property," according to a statement made to WBRC in Birmingham.

"We are grateful to the governor and our elected officials for approving our request to be added to the existing Alabama" law, the statement concluded.
 

Xcobra

Diamond Member
Oct 19, 2004
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Alabama should be automatically allowed to secede so they can enjoy their own hellhole of a state.
 

Viper1j

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Jul 31, 2018
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Alabama should be automatically allowed to secede so they can enjoy their own hellhole of a state.

Hell with that. Just evict them.

They hired Aunt Bee from Mayberry for a governor.
 

ImpulsE69

Lifer
Jan 8, 2010
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As long as they don't freeze up when the killing starts it should be fine right?
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
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I don’t see this as any different than university police departments on nearly every college campus. I presume the “church police” will have the same very restricted to non-existent powers to arrest people and any charges brought by the city/county DA with trial in their courts.
 
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FirNaTine

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Jun 6, 2005
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Based on several recent Supreme Court rulings, it would probably come down to this: Would a similarly situated secular private organization be allowed to hire it's own police force for school campus areas, gathering areas, etc.? If they can (or have) then to not allow this church to do so is animus based on religion and illegal.

Johns Hopkins is going through something like this in Baltimore City right now. State and county colleges have their own police forces (actual state certified academy trained sworn police with full authority, not armed security.) But because Hopkins is a private institution, they can't right now. They can only have armed security or contract with local police for dedicated officers. If Hopkins gets in the door as a secular but private university, I don't think you could legally stop a religious university without running afoul of the current view of being neutral to religion.

Have they requested (and been denied) a school resource officer? What about a patrol contract with the local law enforcement agency? It's pretty common in several areas I know of to pay a set hourly rate for police to be dedicated to a location, event, and an hourly rate to cover their pay and overhead (benefits, vehicle and equipment expense, etc). They are assigned to work particular locations, but remain under the operational policies of their parent agencies. I have seen everything from towns to small to afford their own department want extra patrols, to the Apple Store in a major nearby mall have state troopers watching the doors at peak holiday shopping times.
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
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As long as they arrest their own parishioners for violating their own religious laws I’m fine with it.
 
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FirNaTine

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I don’t see this as any different than university police departments on nearly every college campus. I presume the “church police” will have the same very restricted to non-existent powers to arrest people and any charges brought by the city/county DA with trial in their courts.

I was typing a similar but longer argument as you at the same time, with one notable exception. I am familiar with several "University Police" departments that are fully accredited police with the exact same powers as any other state LEOs. In fact I have helped train a police academy class that was made up of a number of police from a community college that had been previously public safety with limited arrest powers, that was transitioning to a full police department. Technically I was a "subject matter expert" teaching under a police training commission certified instructor as I was only certified to teach career firefighters every class in a six month academy (and then a bunch of professional advancement classes) but had to be supervised teaching fire extinguishers to police cadets... But that is another story.
 
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glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
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As long as they arrest their own parishioners for violating their own religious laws I’m fine with it.

No, it’s probably more like if a car is illegally parked in the handicapped spot of the church, the “church police” could ticket it and/or boot it, have it towed, etc. Ir if drug dealers or someone was loitering on the church steps, the church police could shoo them away. That sort of thing.

The “church police certainly aren’t going to go into the community shooting unarmed black dudes or arresting Muslims for not converting to Christianity.
 

FirNaTine

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Jun 6, 2005
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Hopkins Police here is what I was referring to. It's a private school being authorized for its own 100 member police force. They will have the same authority (and minimum training reqs) as any other police officer in the state.

While the article indicates their primary patrol area is campus property area, they will be able to act if they are requested to assist BCPD in emergency, or if they witness a crime in progress anywhere in the state off campus, exactly the same as any other police officer in MD.
 

Indus

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May 11, 2002
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More and more I am thinking soon there is zero difference between the Islamic Sharia Police which whips people 200 times for offenses against a religious book and the Christian Police for offenses against...
 
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ImpulsE69

Lifer
Jan 8, 2010
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More and more I am thinking soon there is zero difference between the Islamic Sharia Police which whips people 200 times for offenses against a religious book and the Christian Police for offenses against...

As I've gotten older I have the view that while religion may help some people be better people, ultimately it is mostly used to justify hatred and and oppression of those who are different. I realize there are a few out there that may not be that way - such as Buddhism (and I don't know that much about them).
 

FirNaTine

Senior member
Jun 6, 2005
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More and more I am thinking soon there is zero difference between the Islamic Sharia Police which whips people 200 times for offenses against a religious book and the Christian Police for offenses against...

Talk about false equivalency.

They aren't being given the authority to create or enforce any religiously based laws. They are only being given the authority to hire police officers to enforce the existing municipal/county/state laws.

And they will need to be *more careful* about following the law as they will lack the governmental immunity virtually every other police department in the country has to limit lawsuits. While not absolute anymore, most governmental agencies still are shielded from simple negligence (honest mistakes, emergency decisions that turn out to be wrong), and you usually need to allege gross/willful/malicious negligence to successfully sue. In this case as a private organization, they will be potentially liable for simple mistakes, unless there's a liability shield portion to this bill that's not covered in the news.
 
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UglyCasanova

Lifer
Mar 25, 2001
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Are these just security guards or actually have authority to arrest people? Do they have their own jails or can admit people to the local jails? Why is this even necessary?

If it’s just security guards who cares.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
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From reading through this whole thread, if you can call it that! It would appear to me that all of you are missing the point!
But I am not going to point out the obvious, because I love reading all your junk about separation of church and state!
Short version -- I need a good laugh in the morning when I wake up and have my coffee!
Carry on!!!
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
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Are these just security guards or actually have authority to arrest people? Do they have their own jails or can admit people to the local jails? Why is this even necessary?

If it’s just security guards who cares.
Read the article.…...all your answers are in the article......carry on!!
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
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there is always one ignorant person to comment!

What?

I want the full weight of the government involved in religion. I want police arresting Baptist’s for buying alcohol, Mormons arrested for buying coffee, Catholics arrested for sex out of wedlock, Jews arrested for eating a cheese burger, Muslims arrested for eating bacon.

I want the IRS to allow your local priest, minister, rabbi, or iman to directly pull your tithe straight from your paycheck.

This is the first step towards the glorious future with the government all up in people’s religious business.
 

FirNaTine

Senior member
Jun 6, 2005
634
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From reading through this whole thread, if you can call it that! It would appear to me that all of you are missing the point!
But I am not going to point out the obvious, because I love reading all your junk about separation of church and state!
Short version -- I need a good laugh in the morning when I wake up and have my coffee!
Carry on!!!

Sorry, what point is it that you feel we are all missing? That what The Constitution says is that the government must be neutral to religion? That it can neither support, nor interfere with it?

As I mentioned already, other schools in Alabama and elsewhere are already allowed to appoint their own police. But the article is vague on whether this school would have already qualified, but for it being "religious."

From the OP linked article:
Church officials said current Alabama state law "allows certain educational institutions to appoint and employ one or more suitable persons to act as police officers to keep off intruders and prevent trespass upon the institution property," according to a statement made to WBRC in Birmingham.

"We are grateful to the governor and our elected officials for approving our request to be added to the existing Alabama" law, the statement concluded.

So, if a secular private 2,000 student school system with campuses in two counties would be allowed to appoint police, this school is now being treated the same. And no tax money is going to support said church security in the form of police being needed for security there.

Now, one final point is that is sad that we feel the need for armed security or police at schools and churches, but that is hardly unique to this church or even Alabama.
 

Viper1j

Diamond Member
Jul 31, 2018
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I don’t see this as any different than university police departments on nearly every college campus. I presume the “church police” will have the same very restricted to non-existent powers to arrest people and any charges brought by the city/county DA with trial in their courts.

Don't know what state you're in, but in California Uni PD have ALL the powers and arrest authority of any other police dept. In fact their jurisdiction extends up to 1 mile off campus. I've seen them in residential neighborhoods.

You want to give that to "church police"?