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Separation of church and state...unless it's Sharia law.

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The New Jersey case was in family court, a court devoted to domestic abuse, custody issues, and similar family-related cases. This is NOT an arbitration court, but that portion of the state judiciary system where these cases are heard. Since the woman was denied a protective order on the stated basis that under Sharia her husband had done nothing wrong, Sharia obviously overrode state and federal law. Since the woman went to the court seeking a protective order, she can be presumed to have NOT been a willing adherent to being beaten and raped - unless you want to make the case that a woman who knowingly marries a Muslim becomes forever his property.

That's the problem with recognizing Sharia law in any way shape or form. She "willingly" submitted to Sharia by entering into that marriage. There is no such thing as "willing" under the threat of damnation, ostracization by the community, etc.
 
I can imagine that people in New Jersey said the same thing a decade or two ago. Now it's been successfully established in at least one New Jersey Family Court. How much longer until most New Jersey Family Court judges agree? How much longer until the New Jersey Appellate Courts also agree that Sharia is binding on Muslims? On non-Muslim women who marry Muslims? Remember, under New Jersey's judiciary system new judges are most often assigned to Family Court. Judges for the appellate courts come largely from the Family Courts. Thinking Oklahoma is immune to the influx of Islamicism is dangerously naive.

If you can link me to those NJ decisions I can comment more appropriately upon them. I'm guessing they are trial court decisions binding upon no one but the parties (ie, no precedent value at all). Whether the restraining order was denied because the proponent failed to prove their case is far more likely a conclusion to me than a court accepted a Sharia law argument even in New Jersey (slight intended).

Judges can make bad decisions-that is why we have the appeals process.

BTW, court systems are just like any other job-do you think the new guy gets the best assingnments? There is a reason new judges tend to get dumped into family court or (more likely) criminal intake court. And I've never heard of family court experience as being anything special as far as appellate court judge selection goes.
 
I dont' have a link to the decision. Just a reference to it in a CNN article where they interviewed one of the writers of the Referendum:

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/10/28/oklahoma.sharia.question/index.html?hpt=C2


Eskimospy suggested a lack of mens rea ("Guilty Mind", correct?) as the basis for the decision. The Appelate court overturned.

The judge wasn't enforcing religious law on her, he determined that the husband lacked mens rea as best I can tell. He was quickly overturned.




Oh- Slight Welcomed: Growing to dislike this State more and more. Anyone want to trade Property Taxes? (Well.. except you guys in NYC, LI, and CT - In which case you have my sincere condolences and comiseration.)
 
The debate on adoption of sharia law is much more advanced in Europe, where parallel systems of courts have been established in liberal Western countries.

Don't think it can't happen here or anywhere else where multiculturalism is acceptable. Just consider how many in this forum see nothing wrong with having an alternate and authoritarian governance and judicial system established here, all in the name of multiculturalism.

Most sharia courts came about in response to the demands of immigrant communities that did not want to be assimilated into the culture of the countries they now reside in. Even in the US, you see that the vast majority of those who call for sharia are not born in the US but in places where sharia is the law of the land.

Various countries in Europe that have experimented with these alternative legal systems are having serious doubts now. Especially as the most simple and mundane implementations have grown into full-fledged replacements for Western jurisprudence. This is especially egregious in cases where basic human rights are challenged - sharia is very often diametrically different that the traditional liberal views found in Western civilization.

I am going to post a Wall O' Text here. Sorry for that, but the story in the UK is one that bears consideration here, where we are now facing just the early effort for Islamification.

The UK, and other countries in Europe, are much farther along the path of allowing sharia and seem willing to keep going farther in the name of multiculturalism. The story is a cautionary one worth reading in full, IMHO. It really can happen here, just as it has in Europe.

Sharia law UK: Mail on Sunday gets exclusive access to a British Muslim court

By Edna Fernandes

The Daily Mail (UK)

Last updated at 9:57 PM on 4th July 2009

In a shabby converted sweetshop in Leyton, East London, a group of burka-clad Muslim women sit in a waiting room. They have an appointment with Dr Suhaib Hasan at his twice-weekly surgery.

The women look worried. There is no talking in the airless reception area - the only sound is a fan purring quietly in the corner as temperatures outside exceed 80F.

Inside, the atmosphere is just as stifling. There are no magazines, television or other diversions. The beige walls are bare except for a flow-chart depicting the process of securing a Muslim divorce, and a picture of Mecca.

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Making their case: At an Islamic centre in East London, Sheik Haitham Al-Haddad talks to two women about divorce issues

This is no GP's surgery or Citizens Advice Bureau. Within these non-descript walls lies the nerve centre of sharia law in Britain, the headquarters of the Islamic Sharia Council, which oversees the growing number of Muslim courts operating in Britain.

For the first time, the Islamic Sharia Council has granted access to a newspaper to observe the entire sharia legal process in Britain. Over several weeks, I was allowed to witness the filing of complaints, individual testimony hearings and the monthly meeting of imams, or judges, where rulings are handed down.

Sharia has been operating here, in parallel to the British legal system, since 1982. Work includes issuing fatwas - religious rulings on matters ranging from why Islam considers homosexuality a sin to why two women are equivalent to one male witness in an Islamic court.

The Islamic Sharia Council also rules on individual cases, primarily in matters of Muslim personal or civil law: divorce, marriage, inheritance and settlement of dowry payments are the most common.

However, in the course of my investigation, I discovered how sharia is being used informally within the Muslim community to tackle crime such as gang fights or stabbings, bypassing police and the British court system.

A few hardline leaders would like it to be taken even further. One told me that Britain should adopt sharia punishments such as stoning and the chopping off of hands to reduce violent crime.

There are 12 councils or courts operating in Britain under Dr Hasan's group, based in London, Birmingham, Manchester, Rotherham and Bradford. Scores more imams dispense justice through their own mosques.
A study last week by the thinktank Civitas claimed that there could be as many as 85 sharia courts in Britain, although Dr Hasan says most of these are not formal courts. But it is certainly a growing network.

In his courts, support staff interview plaintiffs and compile a case study. Judgments are delivered by senior imams at closed monthly meetings and are sent in writing to the concerned parties. Up to 7,000 cases have been handled so far.

The Islamic Sharia Council is listed as a charity but people seeking a divorce, or talaq, must fill in a form and pay a fee. For a man it is £100; for women, it is £250 because the imams say it takes more work to process a woman's application as her word has to be corroborated.

The literal meaning of sharia is 'source of water in the desert', meaning the source of all spiritual life for Muslims. This is not just a code of law, but a way of life.

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Local justice: The Islamic Sharia Council is based in a converted sweetshop in Leyton, East London

In sharia-based societies, such as Saudi Arabia or the old Taliban-ruled Afghanistan, crimes against society are punished by beheadings, stoning to death and amputations. Women are kept in purdah and limited to child-rearing and caring for the home.

All Western influences, from alcohol, music, television and movies, are banned. It is a rigid prescription for Islamic life that seeks its guidance from the days of the Prophet in the 7th Century.

In Britain, sharia courts are permitted to rule only in civil cases, such as divorce and financial disputes. Until last year, these rulings depended on voluntary compliance among Muslims. But now, due to a clause in the Arbitration Act 1996, they are enforceable by county and high courts.

Sharia courts are classified in the same way as arbitration tribunals - with rulings binding in law provided both parties in the dispute agree to give them the power to rule on their case.

However, a Muslim couple must still be divorced in the British courts for it to recognised under British law. The same provision in the Arbitration Act applies to Jewish Beth Din courts, which resolve similar civil cases.

Dr Hasan is the man who introduced sharia courts to Britain almost 30 years ago.

The softly spoken, grey-bearded scholar was born in Pakistan, studied in Saudi Arabia and worked in East Africa before moving to Britain in the Sixties. He is the Secretary of the Islamic Sharia Council of Britain and a member of the senior panel of imams who sit once a month at Regent's Park Mosque in London.

In Leyton, the imam calls the women into his office to begin a private session to gather evidence. The setting is modest yet its proceedings have all the gravity of a British courtroom - and most cases are conducting in English.

Under Muslim law, a man can divorce his wife simply by uttering the word 'talaq', yet a woman cannot be granted a divorce without the consent of her husband or winning a dissolution of the marriage from the imam. Even if the couple are divorced under British law, they remain married under Islam until divorced under the religious law, too.

Dr Hasan believes that far from trampling on women's rights, the Islamic Sharia Council is empowering Muslim women in Britain, giving them a way out of abusive and violent marriage.

Sitting behind a plywood desk, flanked by shelves of books on Islamic law and copies of the Koran, Dr Hasan hears evidence from an Afghan woman called Ameena (her name has been changed for her protection). She claims her husband is violent towards her and their five children, and she wants a divorce.

Ameena, 35, is backed by the testimony of two social workers, one of whom is Muslim, from a women's refuge.

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Two faces of sharia law: In a room in the Regent's Park Mosque, senior sharia judges calmly deliberate recent cases brought to their council

'He beats me and the children, he doesn't give us our rights, he doesn't love me or the children and he is not interested in me and the children,' she says, also citing her husband's 'mental behaviour'.

The couple had entered an arranged marriage in the sand-blown city of Kandahar and came to Britain as refugees from war. Some years later the marriage faltered.

Dr Hasan's sparely written notes set out the extent of the marital misery: 'He beat her. Then he asked her to massage his shoulders and legs. When she said no, he beat her.

'One time her nose was broken and an operation was carried out. Another day, because of the beating, there was a miscarriage.'

Ameena's evidence is corroborated by statements from one of her daughters. The teenager said that as well as hitting her mother and the children, the father, who is in his 40s, forced her into an arranged marriage in Pakistan. She wants her marriage dissolved, too.

So far Ameena's husband has refused to grant her a divorce, accusing her and his daughter of being 'not mentally fit'.

Dr Hasan decides the case, which has been going on since 2008, is sufficiently serious to merit the consideration of the monthly meeting of senior judges at Regent's Park Mosque. Now Ameena's future lies in their hands.

Later that week, seven imams gather in a sparsely furnished committee room in the shadows of the mosque's magnificent golden dome. Seated around a rectangular table set with mineral water, a bowl of fruit and a box of Fox's luxury biscuits, they go through the various cases.

To the casual observer, it may appear like a rather dry committee meeting. But these men are in effect running a legal system that critics fear could fragment the legal framework in Britain. Laws that once ruled supreme in Kabul are now being enforced in cities across Britain.

It becomes clear that Ameena's story of violence, abandonment and difficulty in securing an Islamic divorce is not isolated. Several other cases during the meeting detail claims of 'terrifying abuse', including one where a gun was placed against a woman's head, and another husband who tried to strangle his wife and children.

If the husband has disputed his wife's word, the court demands her account is corroborated by other witnesses - preferably male. If the wife refuses to agree to give the husband access to their children, even in cases of possible child abuse, the divorce is stalled until that issue is resolved.

In another case, the imams agree a husband has treated the wife badly, beating her and their children and leaving them without support once he had been granted legal status to remain in Britain.

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Two faces of sharia law: Controversial Muslim leader Sarfraz Sarwar has a more militant approach - amputations for thieves and the stoning of women for under-age sex

'He ran away and left the family, and the children began to hate the father,' says one of the imams. The man signed a petition for a civil divorce but had so far refused to allow a divorce under Islam.

The imams discuss the division of assets between the couple, including any dowry jewellery. They also decide to contact the husband one last time - if he fails to respond, he risks a dissolution.

Ameena's case is then raised. It is decided that her husband will be given another opportunity to respond. If all efforts to reconcile fail, then the marriage might be dissolved, but it is unclear who will care for the children. Under Islamic law, a child over seven usually goes to the father unless he agrees otherwise.

Ameena's fate remains in limbo. The following week I accompany Dr Hasan into enemy territory: he has been asked to speak to a group of female students in East London about sharia. The audience is made up of educated, articulate feminists, both Muslim and non-Muslim.

He tells them his organisation is concerned simply with implementing sharia law in Muslim personal legal cases and that 90 per cent of the clients are women seeking a divorce. The women nod.

Then he explains that sharia is about preserving the dignity, health and honour of the individuals. The nodding continues.

Confident, Dr Hasan tells them that in every part of the world, there can be only one authority.

'In Britain, the ultimate authority is the Prime Minister. In an army, it is the commander-in-chief. On the bus, it is the bus driver. And in the house, the smallest unit of society, sharia says authority must be with the man to maintain the house.

'The woman's duties are much harsher. Biologically, she differs,' he says. Her duties lie with the cleaning and childcare.

The mood turns black as Dr Hasan continues that under Islam, the woman is seen as someone who needs the protection of a man. In matters of divorce, the right of ending a marriage lies with the man because 'women have emotions, whereas a man thinks first before he speaks'.

At this, one white woman berates Dr Hasan. 'If you had said these things about a Jew or a black person, it would be totally unacceptable. Yet you think it is OK to say women are inferior. I cannot listen to this without making a stand.'

Another woman, an African professor, adds: 'In my house, my husband and I look after each other. It is an equal partnership. I don't need anyone to protect me.'

Applause ripples through the audience.

'The law is like curry - the different elements help improve the flavour'

An hour later, Dr Hasan emerges from the meeting - he has been attacked verbally but physically he is unscathed. As we walk together, he tells me that virtually all the imams in the UK are trained either in madrassas or religious schools in India and Pakistan, or are graduates of Islamic universities, such as Al-Azhar in Egypt.

Dr Hasan insists their work is not an attempt to bypass the British legal system and says the Islamic Sharia Council does not seek to extend its powers beyond divorce, marriage, dowry and inheritance cases.

'Muslim personal law can be accommodated within the British legal system. In the divorce process, if the British courts recognise Muslim divorce then there would be no need for us to apply for a divorce through the UK system.'

He refuses to accept that there is an inherent conflict between sharia and British law in areas such as equality for women and human rights.

'The problem with the feminist movement is they don't listen to the other side,' he observes gravely, stroking his beard.

I ask if he believes sharia is the best code of law. 'People say it's harsh, but we say it's a deterrent. In Saudi Arabia very few hands are cut. People will not commit the crime as they know the punishment is so horrible, unlike the UK system where people are jailed and the prison system does not work.

'But we cannot ask for sharia in Britain for criminal cases,' he concludes. 'For that to take place, the State needs to support sharia and I recognise Britain does not.'

Despite the feminists' fury, Dr Hasan is a relative moderate on the subject. Some hardliners want Islamic law to be extended to all criminal cases, tackling problems ranging from knife crime to robbery and under-age sex.

One such figure is Sarfraz Sarwar, leader of the Basildon Islamic Centre in Essex. His views have attracted controversy - his mosque was torched three times and eventually destroyed, and his home has also been attacked.

He tells me the windows of his living room are smashed every six months but the police have never caught the perpetrators. He now leaves the windows permanently broken in defiance.

Mr Sarwar insists sharia should be adopted to address rising crime in Britain. 'The British legal system is fair, but it's also very sweet for criminals,' he tells me.
'Sharia is the ultimate deterrent. If you commit a crime and you're punished by sharia, you won't commit it again. But if we praise anything from Islam, people jump down our throat.'

When I suggest that many people in Britain would find some of sharia's provisions extreme and difficult to accept, he agrees. 'We need to adapt sharia for British law. We could use some of the more moderate measures.'

Such as? 'Child abuse, under-age sex, teenage pregnancy, for example.'

I ask what the penalty would be for under-age sex. 'You won't like it. But sharia says if they're caught doing it, you stone the woman.'

Mr Sarwar's other suggestion is to adapt the 'three strikes' policy on crime. Instead of being jailed on the third conviction, a criminal could face having a hand chopped off.

'That would fit in with the way of life here. I'm not being extreme. This has to be used in moderation, for serious crimes, not petty robbery. In this country, people get away with murder.'

He refuses to accept the notion that values of human rights are enshrined in the British way of life.

'In Victorian days they applied sharia. They held people in stocks - there were public floggings, hangings. Why not go back to it? What's the big beef now? Too many goody-two-shoes talking about human rights.'

Mr Sarwar adds that the violence and intimidation he has faced will not silence him. 'I am not a sheep. I am a British Muslim. I pay my taxes, I obey the law.

'People break my windows but I say to you, why can't we mix and match? Take the best from both worlds. The law is like a curry. Different elements improve the flavour. Why not help improve the law of this country with elements of sharia?'

In some ways, I learned that this is happening already. The Somali community in Britain has long relied on the sharia principle of mediation and arbitration in criminal cases.

Saynab Muhamad, leader of the Somali Family Support Centre and one of the few prominent females in the Somali community, tells me how sharia law was used to resolve the case of knife attacks among teenagers a few years ago.

The family of one victim and the attacker came together under Somali elders and an informal hearing decided that the victim should be compensated by the attacker, who in turn was forgiven for the crime. The police were not involved and the matter was settled amicably.

In Somali Muslim culture, after a conflict or a crime is committed, a hearing is held. The judge, or quadis, will act as arbitrator, rectify the crime and reconcile-the two sides.

'In Somalia, the victim would forgive and then be compensated with camels, say 100 camels,' says Saynab.

'Here it would be with money. Sharia is embedded in our society and it has worked well to tackle problems here, too.'

She believes this way of getting community elders involved and taking direct control is more effective than simply relying on the courts, and if the British police wished to attend the hearings, they would be welcome.

For her, this is an example of how the sharia way has been adapted successfully to the British way of life. But critics remain unconvinced and see it as the route to a two-tier legal system, pointing out that under sharia, the law is heavily rigged against women.

Last week, Keith Porteous Wood, director of campaign group One Law For All and the National Secular Society, raised the issue with European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso, in Brussels.

Hitting out at the use of Muslim arbitration tribunals, he said: 'Women are particularly vulnerable as they're forced to submit to these tribunals and Islamic law treats women less favourably than men.

'It's essential that it is one law for all in every country and that the law is democratically established and human rights compliant. Sharia fails that test.'

The subject of sharia is personal and capable of arousing deep passions in the community - inextricably linked, as it is, with Muslim identity and sense of honour.

Despite criticism from those in the West, the extent to which many British Muslim women rely on sharia courts became clear to me. Without them they would remain trapped in abusive or violent marriages.

For these women, sharia is not an instrument of oppression, but a route to freedom.

The women I met were unwilling to talk directly about their cases. Apart from divorce being deeply personal, a failed marriage is often seen a source of shame in their communities - though the idea of bypassing sharia and seeking a divorce solely in the British courts would bring far more disgrace to a family's social standing.

Equality before the law for all, regardless of sex, race or religion, is one of Britain's enduring principles. Women's and gay rights are now firmly enshrined in our law - a law that has evolved over centuries to reflect the pluralist democracy Britain has become.

But sharia is a law still rooted in the 7th Century; it sees modernity as the path to an immoral society.

While sharia gives Muslim women a chance to escape unhappy marriages, it fails to grant them equal status - they are considered inferior to men as witnesses, they have unequal status in divorce and custody of the children, and abuse by the husband is not directly tackled by the courts.

All these things go against the equality of British law.

As I prepare to leave Leyton, office staff are cheering on Andy Murray at Wimbledon, a scene being played out across the country. Meanwhile, in a back room, Sheik Haitham Al-Haddad, one of the most senior imams in Britain, is once more contemplating the fundamental split between religion and state.

'There is a conflict between these two sets of values,' he concedes. ' Muslims believe our values are best. The non-Islamic British believe theirs are better. But at the end of the day, understand this: Muslims are never going to give up certain principles, even if they are in conflict. That is a fact.'

Sharia law in Britain is here to stay and perhaps even spread. But it's a perilous tightrope we tread - the line between multicultural tolerance and protecting the rights of the individual.

 
If a member of the orthodox Jewish community sued for fraud a kosher slaughterhouse for failing to abide by the tenets of the Kashrut (if, for example, chickens were routinely being killed with two swipes of the blade rather than the prescribed single swipe) , do you think state courts should or shouldn't allow such a lawsuit to proceed? That is, if customers engage a business because the business claims to be following certain religious practices, should the business be liable for fraud in state courts if the business knowingly fails to follows the claimed practices?

Similarly, if two parties agree contractually to be bound by a set of rules, and then one of the parties reneges on the agreement, should the agreement be enforced by state courts. Now, suppose the set of rules happen to have their origins in a religion - should that make any difference?

Well, this is exactly the sort of thing this Sharia case is about.

I guess that's Shira law.🙂

You make good points - but there's a line when the agreement crosses criminal law.

People cannot, and should not be able to whatever our right-wing posters say based on their wrong idea of 'freedom', be allowed to give up their protections under criminal law.

But *within* the law, it's fine for people to be able to make agreements based on their religious views - this is what the English system supports the right screams about.

The answer to your question is, people should be allowed to make agreements based on religious reasons - to just the same limit they can make them for non-religious reasons.

For all the protests here, which are pretty much just bigotry about Muslims, how many Christian posters would say if secular contradicts their religion, they follow religion?

There are times to say that, when secular law is inappropriately oppressive.

Spousal rape isn't one of those oppressive things.

What's funny, though, is that the same people on the right today, in the not too far past would have condemned the government outlawing 'spousal rape'.

They'd have said it was just 'big government' interfering where it had no business and being 'politically correct' about an 'agenda of the feminists'.

In 1978, reportedly, only 4 states had laws against spousal rape, and the whole idea of it as criminal reportedly wasn't even discussed until the mid to late 20th century.

So our self-righteous Muslim hated have almost 2 decades - since 1993, IIRC, when the last state passed spousal rape laws, though in some states reported the penalties are still less than for non-spousal rape, and it's rarely charged and almost never convicted - to claim their big moral superiority for protecting women on this over Muslims.

As for this trial - the trial judge seemed to have been considering 'intent of committing a crime' for this, as he did convict the man of harrassment and assault, but not sex crimes.

I'm not familiar with the law there on that, but from the appeals decision, it seems to me the appeals court was right to say the judge was wrong - this guy was criminally guilty.

But that was a legal issue over the role of his intent - whether he believed he had the right to non-consenusal sex, not over religion, even though religion affected his views.

It's a bit like if a Christian said their religious views gave them the right to 'not spare the rod' while the law outlawed any spanking. What if they didn't even know the law? I don't know if the person in the rape case did, as they were apparently recent immigrants from Morocco. Are the spankers guilty of a crime? I have to say 'yes'.

But where are the lines drawn? Can they ban Muslim female dress? Yamikas? Ban or require Beards?

This is where the courts have to find the 'rational purpose' weighed against 'religious freedom' - and non-consenual spousal sex seems well on the 'rational purpose' side there.

Marital rape was not a crime in all 50 states in the U.S. until July 1993 - so that's about 14 years wives have had protection everywhere in the U.S. (Some states had banned marital rape before then, but others had not.) This site shows which states still have exemptions on the severity of punishment for marital rape (some state laws still treat marital rape less seriously than rape by a stranger): [link broken]

Dr. Anne McClintock writes that "Until October 1991, it was legal for a man to rape his wife in Britain, except in Scotland." She adds that, until 1884 in Britain, "a wife could be forcibly incarcerated in a state prison for refusing conjugal rights [to have sex with her husband]."

"Until very recently, two categories of women have been deemed unrapeable by law: wives and prostitutes." Judges have ruled in the U.S. as recently as 1986 that prostitutes cannot be raped. "In 1986, Pasadena Superior Court Judge Gilbert C. Alston presided over the trial of Daniel Zabuski, who was charged with the violent rape and sodomy of Rhoda Dacosta, a prostitute. Alston dismissed the charges on the grounds that a whore cannot be raped. He based his judgment not on standard procedural grounds of legally relevant evidence, nor on the construction of a credible, juridically sound case, but on the grounds that, as he put it, 'a whore is a whore is a whore.' For Alston, all prostitutes share a common identity that makes them essentially and universally unrapeable.

In San Francisco recently [around 1989], the Oakland police chief admitted to closing rape cases of prostitutes without proper investigation simply because the victims were prostitutes. David P. Lambkin, a detective with the Los Angeles police, admitted that rape of prostitutes is on the increase, but he added: 'It's hard enough to make a rape case with a legitimate victim.' 'Sure,' said Lieutenant Vito Spano, head of the sex crimes unit in Brooklyn, 'sure they get vicimized, but they are their own worst enemies.' ...

Judge Alston's notion that a whore cannot be raped finds its logic in an ancient tradition that defines rape not as an affront to women but as an affront to male property rights. Historically, female chastity has had property value for men. ...

'A woman,' Judge Alston explains, 'who goes out on the street and makes a whore out of herself opens herself up to anybody.' The logic of rape law is as follows: Since rape is a crime against a man's property in the woman, a wife cannot be raped by her husband, for a man cannot rob himself of his own property. Similarly, since rape is a crime against a man's property, and since the prostitute is a _common prostitute_, the prostitute no longer has private property value for men. By 'opening herself up' to any man, the prostitute ruins her potential value as private property for a single man and becomes, by definition, unrapeable."
 
That's the problem with recognizing Sharia law in any way shape or form. She "willingly" submitted to Sharia by entering into that marriage. There is no such thing as "willing" under the threat of damnation, ostracization by the community, etc.

She should not be allowed under the law to willingly - with or without the coercion you mention - to give up her criminal law protections.

But there's nothing wrong with her being able to make agreements that are legal based on her religious views.

I see people refer to a 'parallel' justice system in England, but from what I understand, that's misleading. It operations completely within the secular laws.

Its jusrisdiction is only over civil issues within the secular laws, and merely accomodates the people's culture by being familiar with Sharia Law operating within secular law.

The objections seem to me nothing more than bigotry.

If there were any danger of it being more - like saying 'spousal rape doesn't apply to Muslims' - I'd agree with fighting that.

On a related note, I saw something that had me a bit more concerned about 'paralell courts' in the US - for military veterans.

Now, here come the right-wing sympathizers, 'that's different'. The 60 Minutes piece I saw seemed to suggest that the veterans commonly coming back with issues leading them to commit violent, criminal acts led to the need for 'special courts' who 'understand their special needs'. The guy who was the lead advocate and a judge over this seemed to basically have an attitude that we owe these vets and so should give them all kinds of breaks on their behavior.

Now, that seems a dangerous road to me. They seem to still be mostly ok - as long as it's focused on accountability, treatment, and such - but awfully close to saying 'we'll have a special system of justice just for you, that doesn't hold you accountable like it does other people'.
 
Scotteq: Thanks for that link. Suffice it to say that NJ decision, since it was reversed, has absolutely no precedent value anywhere, including NJ. I suspect some attorney made some BS argument based upon Sharia law (it's well known that lawyers can and will present even the most tenuous argument if that is all they have) and somehow persuaded the trial judge/magistrate to accept it.

PJABBER: except on matters controlled by international law or treaty (and except for the common law based upon the English system in effect in this country at its formation), foreign law-be it from Europe, Somalia or Saudi Arabia, is totally irrelevant to American jurisprudence. Europe is free to experiment with whatever type of community court system they wish, it means less than nothing here.

I'm getting the strong impression that GOP strategists are desperately grasping at straws to create a new issue to drive the "socially conservative" voters to the polls-much like the anti-gay marriage measures were so successfully used in the 1990's. Hopefully the rest of the electorate recognize this cynical ploy for what it is-and hold them to their jobs, jobs, jobs promisies. Keep your eye on the ball!
 
A women was repeatedly raped and a judge said that was OK. At the risk of being accused of "stupidly crude anti-Muslim hate"...is it even remotely disturbing to you is that this even got to an appellate court in the first place?

1. Wrong. He was found GUILTY of harrassment and assault. That's not "said that was OK."

2. His reason for not finding him guilty on sex appears based on the issue of criminal intent UNDER AMERICAN LAW, not "let's replace American law with religious law", as the ignorant say.

He did this wrongly, IMO and according to the appellate court, but not wrongly as 'replace American Law with Sharia'.

3. You can say about any number of incorrect court decisions it's disturbing they were made and got to the appellate level.

It is disturbing, but not for the reasons some think.

I'm more disturbed by the wild-eyed ignorant, fearful bigots who scream hate for Muslims.

And by the politicians who reflect their bigotry, pandering to them with Anti-Muslim speech and laws any chance they get, which works well at the polls.
 
Scotteq: Thanks for that link. Suffice it to say that NJ decision, since it was reversed, has absolutely no precedent value anywhere, including NJ. I suspect some attorney made some BS argument based upon Sharia law (it's well known that lawyers can and will present even the most tenuous argument if that is all they have) and somehow persuaded the trial judge/magistrate to accept it.


Not to mention it's also not without precedent for a Judge to (even subconsciusly) consider public outcry and being crucified in the press for making an unpopular (albeit legally 'correct') decision. i.e. In this part of the country, it's not unheard of for local authorities to be dutifully and publicly crucified by various organizations for ruling against "The Minority Of The Day", irrespective of the facts of the case. Though were (S)he given the gift of Foresight as to the sh*tstorm the decision touched off, I'm sure the decision would have been more straightforward.


Regarding your point as to a couple Repubs making political hay of the issue: Clearly, that is the case here.
 
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I see people refer to a 'parallel' justice system in England, but from what I understand, that's misleading. It operations completely within the secular laws.

This link is a pretty good recounting of how the sharia legal system is currently implemented in the UK.

Sharia Law In Britain

Please note that there has been a growth in authority, even since this report was written, especially in populations that are insular by dint of inability to speak English, recent immigrants, etc. It has been reported that these courts are, rightly or wrongly, sometimes conducting criminal trials fully supplanting the regular British secular system.

Funny that you should support a "voluntary" choice to bind oneself to another legal system. The pressures in insular communities, also known as cults, are well known. Can those subject to the oppression of a religious or other cult be considered capable of "free" choice?

Again, let's consider what standards apply in the UK, a place where sharia has been allowed to take the place of English law -



What isn't wrong with Sharia law?

Monday 5 July 2010 14.18 BST

To safeguard our rights there must be one law for all and no religious courts

Gita-Sahgal--006.jpg


Gita Sahgal says there is active support for sharia laws because it is limited to denying women rights in the family. Photograph: Richard Saker

The recent global day against the imminent stoning of Sakine Mohammadi-Ashtiani in Iran for adultery is an example of the outrage sparked by the brutality associated with sharia law's penal code.

What of its civil code though – which the Muslim Council of Britain's Shaykh Ibrahim Mogra describes as "small aspects" that concern "marriage, divorce, inheritance, custody of children"? According to human rights campaigner Gita Sahgal, "there is active support for sharia laws precisely because it is limited to denying women rights in the family. No hands are being cut off, so there can't be a problem …"

Now a report, Sharia Law in Britain: A Threat to One Law for All and Equal Rights, reveals the adverse effect of sharia courts on family law. Under sharia's civil code, a woman's testimony is worth half of a man's. A man can divorce his wife by repudiation, whereas a woman must give justifications, some of which are difficult to prove. Child custody reverts to the father at a preset age; women who remarry lose custody of their children even before then; and sons inherit twice the share of daughters.

There has been much controversy about Muslim arbitration tribunals, which have attracted attention because they operate as tribunals under the Arbitration Act, making their rulings binding in UK law.

But sharia councils, which are charities, are equally harmful since their mediation differs little from arbitration. Sharia councils will frequently ask people to sign an agreement to abide by their decisions.

Councils call themselves courts and the presiding imams are judges. There is neither control over the appointment of these judges nor an independent monitoring mechanism. People often do not have access to legal advice and representation.

Proceedings are not recorded, nor are there any searchable legal judgements. Nor is there any real right to appeal.

There is also danger to those at risk of domestic violence. In one study, four out of 10 women attending sharia courts were party to civil injunctions against their husbands.

"In this way, these privatised legal processes were ignoring not only state law intervention and due process but providing little protection and safety for the women. Furthermore … husbands used this opportunity to negotiate reconciliation, financial settlements for divorce, and access to children. Settlements which in effect were being discussed under the shadow of law."

An example of the kind of decision that is contrary to UK law and public policy is the custody of children. Under British law, the child's best interest is the court's paramount consideration. In a sharia court the custody of children reverts to the father at a preset age regardless of the circumstances. In divorce proceedings, too, civil law takes into account the merits of the case and divides assets based on the needs and intentions of both parties. Under sharia law, only men have the right to unilateral divorce. If a woman manages to obtain a divorce without her husband's consent, she will lose the sum of money (or dowry) that was agreed to at the time of marriage.

There is an assumption that those who attend sharia courts do so voluntarily and that unfair decisions can be challenged. Since much of sharia law is contrary to British law and public policy, in theory they would be unlikely to be upheld in a British court. In reality, women are often pressured by their families into going to these courts and adhering to unfair decisions and may lack knowledge of their rights under British law. Moreover, refusal to settle a dispute in a sharia court could lead to to threats, intimidation or isolation.

With the rise in the sharia courts' acceptability, discrimination is further institutionalised with some law firms offering clients "conventional" representation alongside sharia law advice.

As long as sharia courts are allowed to make rulings on family law, women will be pressured into accepting decisions which are prejudicial.

The report recommends abolishing the courts by initiating a human rights challenge and amending the Arbitration Act as Canada's Arbitration Act was amended in 2005 to exclude religious arbitration.

The demand for the abolition of sharia courts in Britain, as elsewhere, is not an attack on people's right to religion; it is a defence of human rights, especially since the imposition of sharia courts is a demand of Islamism to restrict citizens' rights.

Rights, justice, inclusion, equality and respect are for people, not for beliefs and parallel legal systems. To safeguard the rights and freedoms of all those living in Britain, there must be one secular law for all and no religious courts.
I bolded the last paragraph as it cuts to the issues at hand. Rights are for people, not for any particular belief system, and particularly not for alternative legal systems.
 
PJABBER: except on matters controlled by international law or treaty (and except for the common law based upon the English system in effect in this country at its formation), foreign law-be it from Europe, Somalia or Saudi Arabia, is totally irrelevant to American jurisprudence. Europe is free to experiment with whatever type of community court system they wish, it means less than nothing here.

The reason I provide the UK commentary is that it offers a view of a place that has laws very similar to those in the US. In fact, much of US law derives from British law.

The advocates of sharia here are doing pretty much the same thing as they did in the UK. Best to learn from others' mistakes, wouldn't you say?

There is a continuum that should be considered. On the one end is our current law that has a foundation in Western philosophy and Christian ethics and at the other end you have sharia, codified in the 7th century and full of the wonderful strictures of that unenlightened era.

Advocates of sharia do not recognize the validity of Western law or government, though they do pay lip service to it as required by the Koran for expediency's sake.

They fully believe that conquest is the best way of conversion, but up until that is practicable they will indulge in other means of supplanting secular law with theocratic law. That is why what is called political Islam is in fact the truest expression of Islam.

It is a slippery slope. Why should we take the first step toward sliding down it?
 
This link is a pretty good recounting of how the sharia legal system is currently implemented in the UK.

It's refreshing to see you link a credible source.

As I said, if and when, or if it has, the system encoraches on the rights established under the secular legal system, I take issue with it.

It's not just Muslim cultures that have fewer rights for women than secular culture demands, this comes up with a number of groups and situations.

Of course, these people typically react with the same response right-wingers so often have of 'big government' not respecting their individual freedoms.

Not uncommonly, the women side with their oppressors, for a variety of reasons, none good, while the state tries to give them rights and protections they don't seem to want.

In short, I'm sympathetic to the concerns the link expresses, and if indeed the Sharia courts are supporting oppression and undermining secular law, rather than providing a legitimate service and protecting the legitimate rights of Muslims to operate within the secular law, then it would seem better they be abolished.

But that question should be addresses the right way, not as an expression of bigotry. Nearly all the posters here I see against the courts seem based on ignorance and bigotry.
 
1. Wrong. He was found GUILTY of harrassment and assault. That's not "said that was OK."
Do me a favor and reread what I wrote. I said nothing about him being found guilty of harrassment and assault as that has absolutely nothing to do with my point...I'm talking about the crime of rape. I'm talking about repeated acts of rape that a judge said was not illegal (effectively saying it was "OK") by ruling that her husband was abiding by his Muslim beliefs regarding his spousal duties.
 
Cut him some slack. He's one of those new liberal "Atheists for Islam".
Damn those black Muslim bastards. If they don't like it, they can go back to Central North Africa! Where's my lynching rope; I'm gonna lay down the Sharia Law, Christian style (which is astoundingly similar to Islam style).
 
Damn those black Muslim bastards. If they don't like it, they can go back to Central North Africa! Where's my lynching rope; I'm gonna lay down the Sharia Law, Christian style (which is astoundingly similar to Islam style).

Are you insulting Muslims or sticking up for Christians here?

I always get a kick out of seeing the people that constantly belittle Christians stick up for Muslims. That wasn't directed at you ShawnD1 since I have no idea how you feel towards either group, just a general statement.
 
Damn those black Muslim bastards. If they don't like it, they can go back to Central North Africa! Where's my lynching rope; I'm gonna lay down the Sharia Law, Christian style (which is astoundingly similar to Islam style).

So you're comparing critics of Islam to racist southerners now?

As someone who isn't Christian, I think it's pretty clear Christian style is nothing like Islam style. The conflict between Christians and non-Christians in this country has largely played out in voting booths and courtrooms. The conflict with Islam is playing out with violence. I'll take the Scopes Trial over 9/11 any day. But keep pretending they're the same.
 
Do me a favor and reread what I wrote. I said nothing about him being found guilty of harrassment and assault as that has absolutely nothing to do with my point...

It seems more likely you said nothing about him being found guilty of them because that contradicts your assertion that the judge said it was 'OK'.

[I'm talking about the crime of rape. I'm talking about repeated acts of rape that a judge said was not illegal (effectively saying it was "OK") by ruling that her husband was abiding by his Muslim beliefs regarding his spousal duties.

He wasn't saying the Muslim beliefs took precedence over the law. He was saying the Muslim beliefs affected the man's criminal intent.

It's a different issue - and the judge was found to be wrong anyway.

One caveat: I'm assuming the harrassment and assault charges were linked to the non-consensual sex. If that's incorrect and the judge let him off completely on sex, then my response changes.

Let's take three women, all charger with conspiracy because they knew of their husband's criminal behavior and did not report it to police, instead cooperating with him.

In the first, the woman is heard on tape saying she loves the money her husband is bringing in and can't wait for it to buy them a trip to Vegas.

In the second, the woman is Muslim and heard to say she disapproves of her husband's behavior but believes her religion requires her to submit to his decision.

In the third, the woman is an atheist, and heard to say she disapproves of her husband's actions, but believes that her responsibilities as a wife require her to be loyal to him.

Are these all equally guilty of conspiracy? I'd say the first case is worse than the last two.

I'd say there could be legal issues differentiating them regarding intent and mitigating factors, without saying 'ohmigosh they replaced our law with Sharia law!'

Indeed, even our secular law has provided protections for the belief that a wife's duties can supercede the secular law, in prohibiting compelling her testimony.

In other words, if the husband said to the wife that he DID commit the murder, she cannot be forced to testify he did, as she could if she is his girlfriend, sister or mother.

The murderer is found not guilty, rather than require her to tell the truth.

Again, IMO the rage over issues like this seems to me based on nothing but an ignorance of the real reasons, and the bigotry to fear and hate Muslims.
 
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So you're comparing critics of Islam to racist southerners now?

As someone who isn't Christian, I think it's pretty clear Christian style is nothing like Islam style. The conflict between Christians and non-Christians in this country has largely played out in voting booths and courtrooms. The conflict with Islam is playing out with violence. I'll take the Scopes Trial over 9/11 any day. But keep pretending they're the same.

http://www.examiner.com/republican-in-baltimore/dr-tiller-the-baby-killer-gunned-down-at-church
"WICHITA, Kan. – Controversial abortion doctor George Tiller was shot and killed this morning as he attended religious services at Reformation Lutheran Church. The gunman, now in police custody, opened fire on Tiller as he was serving as an usher while Tiller’s wife, Jeanne, sang in the choir."

Ok fine I'll drop it. It's not like Islam at all. Muslims targets random people whereas Christians target very specific people. Is that better?


That wasn't directed at you ShawnD1 since I have no idea how you feel towards either group, just a general statement.
I feel that both groups are unfairly labeled based on a minority of crazy people within either group.
 
http://www.examiner.com/republican-in-baltimore/dr-tiller-the-baby-killer-gunned-down-at-church
"WICHITA, Kan. – Controversial abortion doctor George Tiller was shot and killed this morning as he attended religious services at Reformation Lutheran Church. The gunman, now in police custody, opened fire on Tiller as he was serving as an usher while Tiller’s wife, Jeanne, sang in the choir."

Ok fine I'll drop it. It's not like Islam at all. Muslims targets random people whereas Christians target very specific people. Is that better?



I feel that both groups are unfairly labeled based on a minority of crazy people within either group.

So maybe a dozen (at most) killings over a few decades by Christian extremists compares to thousands of deaths at the hands of Muslim extremists? And for someone who doesn't like generalizations you've sure set a fine example. According to you, criticizing Islam is hate speech and amounts to old-school lynching in the South.
 
http://www.examiner.com/republican-in-baltimore/dr-tiller-the-baby-killer-gunned-down-at-church
"WICHITA, Kan. – Controversial abortion doctor George Tiller was shot and killed this morning as he attended religious services at Reformation Lutheran Church. The gunman, now in police custody, opened fire on Tiller as he was serving as an usher while Tiller’s wife, Jeanne, sang in the choir."

Ok fine I'll drop it. It's not like Islam at all. Muslims targets random people whereas Christians target very specific people. Is that better?



I feel that both groups are unfairly labeled based on a minority of crazy people within either group.

I'll comment as soon as you post your 2,999 other examples of Christians killing for Christ in America.
 
It seems more likely you said nothing about him being found guilty of them because that contradicts your assertion that the judge said it was 'OK'.



He wasn't saying the Muslim beliefs took precedence over the law. He was saying the Muslim beliefs affected the man's criminal intent.


Whether his criminal intent or lack of came from his beliefs in Muhammad, Jesus, Flying spaghetti monster, XE-NU, Roman Polanski, etc. they should should have been irrelevant to the case, rape is rape and no means no.
 
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Damn those black Muslim bastards. If they don't like it, they can go back to Central North Africa! Where's my lynching rope; I'm gonna lay down the Sharia Law, Christian style (which is astoundingly similar to Islam style).


Awww.....gonna report me again little boy?
 
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