Separation of church and state on birth control

[DominionSeraph]

Freedom is worship as one sees fit is fundamental right.

Access to birth control is a privilege.

My religion has a moral problem with American citizens and paying a penny more than I can get away with. Good to know that I can now freely employ illegals with no minimum wage.

 

[BladeVenom]

Worse yet, insurance wouldn't cover it at all then, which is a whole 'nother screwed up part of our system.

Solves the religious issue, and if they were available over the counter more women would take them regularly. We'd have less unplanned pregnancies and abortions.

 

[cybrsage]

Yes and no.

Churches are free to pick and choose the church leaders based on their religious views.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/12/u...o-job-discrimination-laws.html?pagewanted=all



As for a non-leader position, I do not know if the church can hire and fire based on religious views.

I know they can fire you if you proslytize on their property...for a competing religious view.

 

[gingermeggs]

How about animal sacrifice? Should the government be able to tell you that you can't kill your dog for religious purposes?

Or creationist "theories", polygamy, child brides, burqa wearing and genital cutting?

When you look at countries that are overtly religious and the problems they have with woman's/human rights and overpopulation it's not pretty picture-
Philippines is an excellent example, the catholic church forbids the use of condoms, poor people have 6+ children and cannot afford to feed them, it's a poor country with little tech or resources and now its fisheries is entering a state of crisis.
So yes there is a point when Government should Govern!
Hopefully before inaction causes too much personal suffering, the developed nations should light the way for a better future for all mankind and not be so self-adsorbed and gluttonous.
The true agenda of most large organized religions is to subvert and centralize government to become theocracies.
The Turks have been there and done that once, looks like they are going to face it again.

 

[gingermeggs]

I know they can fire you if you proslytize on their property...for a competing religious view.

Much like a socialist/communist person was treated by the US government in the cold war period. Pinko's and beatniks!

 

[Ninjahedge]

It has happened, and I posted a link to case.

There have been exceptions made to laws based on religious beliefs.

They have been specific. You are trying to blanket-case them.

You made a blanket statement, if you hire, you have to follow US labor laws. Well, that is not always true.

It is true in the majority of cases, with any exception needing to be heard independently. Being a Priest has a different bearing than being someone who works for a priest but is not a part of the religious institution itself.

You just like to throw big words around to show everyone how "smart" you are.

No, I just use big words. if you want me to speak like a fifth grader, tough shit.

Go home, open a beer, eat some pizza and watch some TV like everyone else.

Um, wow. I am so hurting from that stinging rebuke you just offered me. Wow, I can't be cool like you because I use words not heard on "Wheel of Fortune"

The SHAME of it all.

 

[Ninjahedge]

So a religious organization can hire based on a person's religious views, correct? Since their position rests on it.

Only if that person is working, say, as a PRIEST.

It does not apply to who they hire as a secretary.

 

[Ninjahedge]

Here is an idea.
You have various insurance companies offer different services and then we let them compete on the open market?

Novel concept I know....

Until they all collude on one level or another and miraculously show a higher profit margin, even during a recession, than 90% of the other industries in the US.

Great system.

 

[Jhhnn]

The spin in the OP's linked article is entirely ass-backwards. In regulating interstate commerce, the govt requires that access to birth control be a part of plans offered. Religious organizations don't have to provide health insurance at all- they can opt to pay the nominal fine instead.

If we're terribly concerned about their moral sensibilities, we can ban them from running hospitals & institute single payer healthcare, leaving them out of the picture entirely. They can do their thing with a clear conscience.

As it is, Catholic control of hospitals is an attempt to limit access to birth control by everybody else.

 

[blackangst1]

Solves the religious issue, and if they were available over the counter more women would take them regularly. We'd have less unplanned pregnancies and abortions.

Thats a bogus claim. OTC availability for BC =! more use.

Want a great example? The Philippines.

edit: That said, worldwide birth rates are dropping.

 

[cybrsage]

Only if that person is working, say, as a PRIEST.

It does not apply to who they hire as a secretary.

So the DNC is forced to hire Tea Party supporters if they are secretaries, cleaners, basically anyone who is not in charge, right?

 

[Ninjahedge]

They are not forced to hire anybody.

They cannot pick one janitor over another based on political basis.

Your rhetorical questions are worthless.

 

[blackangst1]

They are not forced to hire anybody.

They cannot pick one janitor over another based on political basis.

Your rhetorical questions are worthless.

So political belief is a protected class now?

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

So political belief is a protected class now?

He just said: "They cannot pick one janitor over another based on political basis."

Cannot means can't or can not. 😉

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

So the DNC is forced to hire Tea Party supporters if they are secretaries, cleaners, basically anyone who is not in charge, right?

That would depend on qualifications.

 

[Ninjahedge]

So political belief is a protected class now?

Nope. Never said it was.

Thanks for thinking I was a mannequin, now get your hand out of my ass.

 

[BladeVenom]

Thats a bogus claim. OTC availability for BC =! more use.

Want a great example? The Philippines.

edit: That said, worldwide birth rates are dropping.

That's a poor example. The Philippines is a mostly Catholic country, 80%, and the Catholic church is against the pill.

Being able to get more birth control pills without having to go to the doctor for an exam every time would increase usage. It should be a woman's choice.

 

[piasabird]

That is a crock and forced government healthcare is unconstitutional. They can just supply healthcare in the form of insurance and let you and your insurance company fight over it. There is probably some kind of exemption for non-profits.

 

[piasabird]

Religious organizations can enforce their own hiring policy based on their beliefs. Even some hollywood studios put decency clauses in some contracts. What about Disney?

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Religious organizations can enforce their own hiring policy based on their beliefs. Even some hollywood studios put decency clauses in some contracts. What about Disney?

What about Disney? Do they require everyone to be a Nazi sympathiser or are those days over?

And when comparing who you are hiring to what laws you need to follow to provide proper health insurance even a dimwit like yourself can surely see that the two are not the same?

At least i hope you can.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

That is a crock and forced government healthcare is unconstitutional. They can just supply healthcare in the form of insurance and let you and your insurance company fight over it. There is probably some kind of exemption for non-profits.

How is it unconstitutional, they are not forced to provide healthcare directly, they can use insurance but then the same problem would still persist.

I don't think you get this issue at all.

 

[Ninjahedge]

That is a crock and forced government healthcare is unconstitutional. They can just supply healthcare in the form of insurance and let you and your insurance company fight over it. There is probably some kind of exemption for non-profits.

Absolute BS.

 

[blackangst1]

That's a poor example. The Philippines is a mostly Catholic country, 80%, and the Catholic church is against the pill.

Being able to get more birth control pills without having to go to the doctor for an exam every time would increase usage. It should be a woman's choice.

Its not a poor example. How would you explain Brazil then? Catholic country, pill is OTC, but they are now at a negative birth rate?

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Its not a poor example. How would you explain Brazil then? Catholic country, pill is OTC, but they are now at a negative birth rate?

Neither are even close to comparable and providing a hormonal drug as severe as the pill OTC is horribly reckless, it's a drug with more side effects than most other prescription drugs allowed to be sold.

If the pill was for men and had these side effects it would NEVER have been sold in the first place.

About 65% of all users die prematurely because of them, their main claim to fame for death is blod clots but the side effects are almost endless and individual.

Meanwhile, a man could get a test undecanoate injection once every two weeks and have NO side effects from it but nah... can't have that. That would mean actually giving men hormones and that is a no-no for some reason. Same in every fucking nation so i'm not sticking this one on the US, i'm sticking this one ... well where can you read that men are worth more than women and should be the heads of the household?

 

[cybrsage]

They are not forced to hire anybody.

Churches are not forced to hire anyone either. The obvious implication is if they are currently hiring.

They cannot pick one janitor over another based on political basis.

Your rhetorical questions are worthless.

So you are saying that if the DNC is hiring and a Tea Party Activist applies for the job they cannot deny him the position (be it for anything other than leadership - so a secretary, phone bank operator, janitor, sign putter upper, etc) based on his political views?

Is this a correct statement of your position? Not attacking, simply seeking clarification.