Send Sapphire a message

[jacktesterson]

OK, first my opinion. Sapphire makes good cards. I have always bought Sapphire's rather than ATI official cards. (even though sapphire makes the official cards right?)

Anyways, I think this is getting way to much hype. As a law student, there is nothing "illegal" about it. They use different SKU numbers and clearly label the "fake" 9800 pro's as 128bit.

To be honest with the whole "cheating the people who dont know better"...If they don't know better its there own fault. I realize ethically, it may be incorrect in a minor way, but this is not Sapphires fault. This is ATI's fault for allowing this kind of name scheming to happen in the first place...and Vendors are not helping the situation. They, if anyone, are truely abusing this, not sapphire.

ATI needs a new naming scheme. There next line of Cards, say the Breeze line, need a simple scheme with no "Pro's or LE or XT's"

ATI Breeze 1000, 2000, 3000, 4000, 5000, 6000.....etc. Keep it simple. 2 yrs down the road if they make a new card that fits between 5000 and 6000...name it 5500.

I think Sapphire is taking way to much crap for this, as its ethically and legally more fault of ATI and the Vendors

Edit: ATI needs to set STANDARDS on naming cards. If your going to make a 9800 Pro, it has to be as close to the set speeds of the card

 

[jacktesterson]

One other point,

what do you think of the thousands of people who bought Compaq PC's for years...such as "PC for all your gaming needs" and compaq puts a Geforce 2 MX-200 32MB video card in the machine...

i really think even people who don't know better should research what there buying.

 

[RedShirt]

Originally posted by: AMDHardcoreFan
OK, first my opinion. Sapphire makes good cards. I have always bought Sapphire's rather than ATI official cards. (even though sapphire makes the official cards right?)

Anyways, I think this is getting way to much hype. As a law student, there is nothing "illegal" about it. They use different SKU numbers and clearly label the "fake" 9800 pro's as 128bit.

To be honest with the whole "cheating the people who dont know better"...If they don't know better its there own fault. I realize ethically, it may be incorrect in a minor way, but this is not Sapphires fault. This is ATI's fault for allowing this kind of name scheming to happen in the first place...and Vendors are not helping the situation. They, if anyone, are truely abusing this, not sapphire.

ATI needs a new naming scheme. There next line of Cards, say the Breeze line, need a simple scheme with no "Pro's or LE or XT's"

ATI Breeze 1000, 2000, 3000, 4000, 5000, 6000.....etc. Keep it simple. 2 yrs down the road if they make a new card that fits between 5000 and 6000...name it 5500.

I think Sapphire is taking way to much crap for this, as its ethically and legally more fault of ATI and the Vendors

Edit: ATI needs to set STANDARDS on naming cards. If your going to make a 9800 Pro, it has to be as close to the set speeds of the card

It is ATI's fault for allowing it, but it is Sapphire who is doing the naming. It is 100% legal, but not ethical.

I mean think of it this way. If it were named differently, what would change? Just the name. The people that researched it would know exactly what it is and what it's performance was. The people that didn't know what it was would know that it was different than a 9800pro. If they were interested in the card for that price, they'd research how a Radeon 9800proLite performs (or whatever alternative name was chosen).

By using the same name, people in the know will know that it is different, but people not in the know will not be able to tell the difference. This naming convention takes advantage of these people.

 

[RedShirt]

Originally posted by: AMDHardcoreFan
One other point,

what do you think of the thousands of people who bought Compaq PC's for years...such as "PC for all your gaming needs" and compaq puts a Geforce 2 MX-200 32MB video card in the machine...

i really think even people who don't know better should research what there buying.

Enthusiasts already boycott compaq

 

[SickBeast]

Is it only Sapphire that makes these 128-bit 9800's?

 

[GeneralGrievous]

If you don't do your homework, you'll get burned. It's that simple.

People aren't going to stop buying sapphire cards simply because of a naming technicality when they offer great cards for cheaper prices than other manufacturers.

 

[viivo]

Originally posted by: RedShirt

Originally posted by: AMDHardcoreFan
One other point,

what do you think of the thousands of people who bought Compaq PC's for years...such as "PC for all your gaming needs" and compaq puts a Geforce 2 MX-200 32MB video card in the machine...

i really think even people who don't know better should research what there buying.

Enthusiasts already boycott compaq

Nah, just the ones who bought one for their first PC and now have a lot of psychological baggage.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Originally posted by: thorin
Wow suprise suprise "Buyer beware" holds true even in 2004.

Sorry no sympathy for people how refuse to do any research and then get upset about it after the fact. Especially when there are much better ways to handle your displeasure. ie: Return the f'in thing and get a refund, repor the company to the BBB, sue them for false advertising (if there actually was any ... though most likely you didn't read the fine print when you should have).

Thorin

The "NewEgg" incident that I was referring to, was a thread in Hot Deals, that was originally explicitly listed in the detailed specs as a "Sapphire 9800 Pro 128MB 256-bit 8x AGP" (etc). So it's not the customer's fault that they "didn't read the fine print" - in fact they did. Some of the AT'ers got suspicious though with the pictures and the memory layout, and called and pestered NewEgg until they looked into it more deeply, and then changed the description of the product from 256-bit to 128-bit, and from retail to OEM. My understanding from reading the thread was that they still shipped the cards though, even after their description was changed, and that people were asked to refuse delivery if they didn't want the different product.

Kudos to the AT'ers that ordered though, and have a fine attention to details. If they hadn't pestered NewEgg at all, I think that the discrepency would have never been noticed. And Kudos to NewEgg for handling returns of the incorrectly-shipped product.

Even worse is these small computer-parts resellers, that don't even have detailed specs, nor accurate product pictures for the goods that they are selling, and just steal pictures of a "Radeon 9800 Pro" card off of the internet somewhere, to put next to their product listing. Then again, it's always been "buyer beware" with these little internet computer shops anyways, so not that much new there.

 

[gsellis]

Originally posted by: Sunner

Originally posted by: gsellis
People not in the industry are not going to know the difference even after getting it. They saved money and it is faster than what they had. I think you are too worked up over this. Cleansing breathes.

While I pretty much agree with Thorin, that's about the stupidest reason I've seen.
Basically you're saying it's ok to fool people so long as they don't know you are.

I'd love to see your reaction if you picked up an M5, only to find out it's a styled up 520i, but hey, it's still faster than the Fiat Punto you had before, so it's ok, right?

But, if that M5 only sold for $35000, would you not do a double take? Who says they are fooling anyone? It has 8 pipelines and sells for significantly less than a 256-bit version. I never said I agreed with Sapphire (scroll up). But, I do disagree that it is a reason to declare war on a company or a product. It does state what it is on the box.

I was just talking about 5 Series drivers on the way home ("I bought a 5, so that includes a lease on the left lane").

 

[RedShirt]

Originally posted by: SickBeast
Is it only Sapphire that makes these 128-bit 9800's?

Yep

 

[RedShirt]

Originally posted by: gsellis

Originally posted by: Sunner

Originally posted by: gsellis
People not in the industry are not going to know the difference even after getting it. They saved money and it is faster than what they had. I think you are too worked up over this. Cleansing breathes.

While I pretty much agree with Thorin, that's about the stupidest reason I've seen.
Basically you're saying it's ok to fool people so long as they don't know you are.

I'd love to see your reaction if you picked up an M5, only to find out it's a styled up 520i, but hey, it's still faster than the Fiat Punto you had before, so it's ok, right?

But, if that M5 only sold for $35000, would you not do a double take? Who says they are fooling anyone? It has 8 pipelines and sells for significantly less than a 256-bit version. I never said I agreed with Sapphire (scroll up). But, I do disagree that it is a reason to declare war on a company or a product. It does state what it is on the box.

I was just talking about 5 Series drivers on the way home ("I bought a 5, so that includes a lease on the left lane").

Real 9800 pros were selling for 180 a few weeks ago. This is 95% of that cost... So I don't think I'd do a double take knowing this. I'd figure it was real if I didn't see the 128-bit in the title.

 

[DaveSimmons]

Originally posted by: AMDHardcoreFan
OK, first my opinion. Sapphire makes good cards. I have always bought Sapphire's rather than ATI official cards. (even though sapphire makes the official cards right?)

Anyways, I think this is getting way to much hype. As a law student, there is nothing "illegal" about it. They use different SKU numbers and clearly label the "fake" 9800 pro's as 128bit.

To be honest with the whole "cheating the people who dont know better"...If they don't know better its there own fault. I realize ethically, it may be incorrect in a minor way, but this is not Sapphires fault.

Sorry to get personal, but you are sounding like you've already passed the bar

It is more than a "minor" lapse in ethics to deceive buyers and give them a card marked with the "9800 Pro" label that is uniquely inferior to every other 9800 Pro on the market. Since the only feature difference the average user is expecting to find between 9800 Pro cards is in 256 vs 128 MB of memory, the "128 mbit" label may well even be read by buyers as just meaning the 128 MB of RAM.

 

[Sunner]

Originally posted by: gsellis

Originally posted by: Sunner

Originally posted by: gsellis
People not in the industry are not going to know the difference even after getting it. They saved money and it is faster than what they had. I think you are too worked up over this. Cleansing breathes.

While I pretty much agree with Thorin, that's about the stupidest reason I've seen.
Basically you're saying it's ok to fool people so long as they don't know you are.

I'd love to see your reaction if you picked up an M5, only to find out it's a styled up 520i, but hey, it's still faster than the Fiat Punto you had before, so it's ok, right?

But, if that M5 only sold for $35000, would you not do a double take? Who says they are fooling anyone? It has 8 pipelines and sells for significantly less than a 256-bit version. I never said I agreed with Sapphire (scroll up). But, I do disagree that it is a reason to declare war on a company or a product. It does state what it is on the box.

I was just talking about 5 Series drivers on the way home ("I bought a 5, so that includes a lease on the left lane").

It's still not an M5.
I agree, people should make sure they're buying what they think they are, but in this case, it is pretty ugly, borderline scam.
The Radeon 9800SE is pretty ugly too, when you buy a 9800 you'd expect a high performance part, not a midrange one, but at least you can just read about the 9800SE and see that it sucks(compared to a Pro, a proper Pro).

Imagine a newbie who does his homework, reads some R9800Pro reviews, and thinks it's all good and great, after all, it's a Pro, it should be comparable to the ones reviewed.

Back in the 9700/9500 days, this would effectively had been a Radeon 9500 rather than a 9700, would you considder that a scam? Taking a 9500 and slapping a 9700 tag on it?

We may know the difference, but when they take the confusing naming this far, they're making it very hard for a consumer to educate himself, since it will now go beyond looking up a specific product, it will also mean educating himself about the importance of bus width, the newbies shouldn't have to.

In the end, I don't care much, I know the difference, but I see no other reason for this than to fool people, they've just taken it one step further.

 

[jacktesterson]

http://www.ncix.com/forums/index.php?mode=showthread&msg_id=493059&threadid=493059&forum=101&product_id=12069&overclockid=0#msg493059


NCIX.com...this is how a RESPECTED computer parts retailer should sell this card

and the price of the card is $239.99 canadian....not the 294.52 as advertised. Each week if you sign up to there newsletter, they send you a list of *Savings Codes* and this week the card with the savings code, which is "12069-1001", is $239.99....you just enter the code in when you go to the checkout.

They also are excellent with pricematching. If you can find it cheaper, they always pricematch.

 

[RedShirt]

Just a little bump here for others that may have not gotton a chance to see the thread.

At least awareness of this different card is increasing. That's something almost everyone can agree on.

 

[dexvx]

Actually 4 entities are at fault.

ATI - Rediculously lame and uninformative PR rating / naming scheme. There is no clear definition by ATI as to what is a 9800 pro and what is not. Technically the 128bit Radeon 9800 pro is still using a "Radeon 9800 Pro" chip.

Sapphire - Using ATI's confusing naming scheme to create products to further confuse people.

The Vendors - Using both the above's confusing naming scheme to try and sell products.

Consumers - Dumb for not researching. Even though all the said above is confusing, you can still pick through the mess if you know what you're doing, as everything is clearly labeled.

I feel no sympathy for people not knowing what they're doing. Although its overly confusing, everything is clearly labeled. If they dont know the difference between 128bit/256bit, then they are at fault. When you are going to purchase something, then it should also be up to you to know what to purchase.

 

[rbV5]

I think its wrong to call the 128bit card the 9800pro. The 128bit R300 card was called the 9500pro the 256bit card was called the 9700pro. The "pro" cards have had the distinction of being very similar accross the board to the reference ATI "pro" cards, while the NP/SE/LE were offered in various flavors.

Mark me down as "I don't like it". It should be the 9800BSE (Bait and Switch Edition)

 

[RedShirt]

The site is now allowing for people to sign up saying that they will boycott.

 

[ta2]

Originally posted by: AMDHardcoreFan.....As a law student, there is nothing "illegal" about it.....

In Europe it is "an offence for a trader to apply, by any means, false or misleading statements, or to knowingly or recklessly make such statements".

 

[splice]

So, what is the performance delta between the 256 and 128-bit?

 

[flexy]

Originally posted by: ronnn
totally agree, but alot of the problem exists in ATI naming in general. They have so many model numbers and can be quite confusing.

This reminds me so much of some years back...remember....Radeon 8500 ? radeon 8500 LE ? Radeon 8500 LELE ??? And all that bs with different clock rates etc...

I like ATI...but their naming conventions are retarded...also...coming out with another capped 9800 is stupd...we already had all flavors of 9800, 9800 Pro with 256bit bus, 9800 SE with 128 bit bus.....four pipes, 8 pipes..ALL combinations of that......thats stupid..the average user/buyer will have a hard time knowing what he actually get.....and yes, i bt there are people out there (the people wjich are NOT on AT or on rage3d which do NOt know the diff between 256bit but, 128bit bus, number of pipes..

 

[Pasadena]

Hmm i just got a 9800 pro from newegg, is there anyway to check if i got a 128 or a 256??? It was OEM, so no box. TIA

 

[RedShirt]

Originally posted by: Pasadena
Hmm i just got a 9800 pro from newegg, is there anyway to check if i got a 128 or a 256??? It was OEM, so no box. TIA

I'm going to basically copy and paste a response I gave in the hardforums since this exact same question was asked there.

I know RivaTuner at Guru3d will tell you.

Simply double click on the icon it installs in your tray, then on the main tab a little over halfway up it'll say how much RAM the card has, the Core revision, and the memory bus width.

As an example, mine says:
"256-bit R300 (8x1) with 128MB DDR memory" (I have a Sapphire 9500 softmodded to a 9700)

If it doesn't say there, click on the tab next to "customize" and select "Graphics subsystem diagnostic report" Scroll down to the bottom of the report preview and check out where it says "Memory Bus"

Hope this helps. I'm sure there are other easier tools to check this out, but I know this works for sure.

Let us know what you find out.

 

[FishTankX]

Okay, Redshirt. You're ranting about saphire, but not proposing a sollution. What is your sollution.

Name it 'R9800SE pro'?

 

[myocardia]

I'll stop buying Sapphires' cards as soon as they stop making good cards at good prices. I could care less about other people's ignorance. There have always been good products at good prices, and there have always been bad products at no-so-good prices. BTW, RedShirt, what would you say if you found out that <75% of the people who've bought these cards have softmodded them into 256-bit 9800 Pros?