Senate idiots to pull an all nighter.

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CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Are you being purposely OBTUSE? If the nominees in question went up for a yes or no vote, it would surely end in a YES. I mean, duh, the republicans ARE the majority. They WANT conservative-activist judges who will pound the bible as he (or she) pounds their gavel.

Are you and they purposely being hypocritical? Should there not be a yes/no vote once that nomination passes commitee scrutiny and is forwarded to the floor for a vote?

That is not being obtuse - that is following procedure;)

?We should have up-or-down votes in the committee and on the floor.? -Sen. Harry Reid (D-NV)

CkG

Hypocritical? How? I've never said that either party shouldn't use the filibuster. Like I said, it's virtually the only leverage the minority has. You're like a broken robot Cad, repeating "Up or down vote... Beep! Up or down vote ... Beep!"

Someone whomp that RoboCad on the head and reboot him! ;)

No, actually it's hypocritical because these same people who are using this filibuster to twist procedure - once railed against blocking nominees...and in some cases expressed their dismay at filibusters. So - yes that is quite hypocritical. It was a question DM...don't get your panties in a bunch...if you didn't bitch about the blocking of Clinton's judges, then fine - you aren't a hypocrit on this issue...but quite a few Senators are;)

?It is true that some Senators have voiced concerns about these nominations. But that should not prevent a roll call vote which gives every Senator the opportunity to vote ?yes? or ?no.? ... Parties with cases, waiting to be heard by the federal courts deserve a decision by the Senate.? -Sen. Ted Kennedy (D-MA)

CkG
 

MonstaThrilla

Golden Member
Sep 16, 2000
1,652
0
0
Where are you getting all these quotes from? Is there some "master list" that the vast rightwing conspiracy keeps of all Democratic quotes that can be used to bite them in the ass later? More importantly, what context were these quotes made in? What was it that provoked the various Dems to make those statements? You seem to gloss over that very important detail...

But quotes from the past still don't explain why a large minority in Congress can't use its power to filibuster whatever it wants. Like has been said here a million times, its all about "checks and balances". I know that's a hard concept when your party controls all facets of government (yes even the judicial which SHOULD NOT be controlled by any party), but its one that is essential to American government.
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Are you being purposely OBTUSE? If the nominees in question went up for a yes or no vote, it would surely end in a YES. I mean, duh, the republicans ARE the majority. They WANT conservative-activist judges who will pound the bible as he (or she) pounds their gavel.

Are you and they purposely being hypocritical? Should there not be a yes/no vote once that nomination passes commitee scrutiny and is forwarded to the floor for a vote?

That is not being obtuse - that is following procedure;)

?We should have up-or-down votes in the committee and on the floor.? -Sen. Harry Reid (D-NV)

CkG

Hypocritical? How? I've never said that either party shouldn't use the filibuster. Like I said, it's virtually the only leverage the minority has. You're like a broken robot Cad, repeating "Up or down vote... Beep! Up or down vote ... Beep!"

Someone whomp that RoboCad on the head and reboot him! ;)

No, actually it's hypocritical because these same people who are using this filibuster to twist procedure - once railed against blocking nominees...and in some cases expressed their dismay at filibusters. So - yes that is quite hypocritical. It was a question DM...don't get your panties in a bunch...if you didn't bitch about the blocking of Clinton's judges, then fine - you aren't a hypocrit on this issue...but quite a few Senators are;)

?It is true that some Senators have voiced concerns about these nominations. But that should not prevent a roll call vote which gives every Senator the opportunity to vote ?yes? or ?no.? ... Parties with cases, waiting to be heard by the federal courts deserve a decision by the Senate.? -Sen. Ted Kennedy (D-MA)

CkG

/me: Unbunches panties :)

Yes, I have no problem with filibuster. It's been used by both parties. But you seem to be skirting the larger issue, which is: If these nominees go to the floor for an up-down vote, the outcome is quite predictable. I don't see what else the dems can do besides to filibuster. I mean, it's pretty obvious why they're doing it.

By the way, when are these quotes you keep posting from? Can you put a date on them?
 

markuskidd

Senior member
Sep 2, 2002
360
0
0
:p So tell me again why a filibuster(which forces a super-majority) should be used to block judicial nominees(which only require a simple majority)? Isn't that abuse by a minority to stall action and block votes?

What do you think the point of the filibuster rule is if it's not to allow this sort of thing?

 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: MonstaThrilla
I'm glad to see you gave it up after this one.

All politicians, regardless of party, make statements they wish they could take back.

Hilarious case in point.

Ofcourse that is pretty funny but he, you, and other people forget what he stated about Saddam;)

"Senators who believe in fairness will not let a minority of the Senate deny [the nominee] his vote by the entire Senate." -Edward Kennedy, D-Mass.

CkG
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
/me: Unbunches panties :)

Yes, I have no problem with filibuster. It's been used by both parties. But you seem to be skirting the larger issue, which is: If these nominees go to the floor for an up-down vote, the outcome is quite predictable. I don't see what else the dems can do besides to filibuster. I mean, it's pretty obvious why they're doing it.

By the way, when are these quotes you keep posting from? Can you put a date on them?

The problem with the filibuster in this case is that Constitutionally there are guidlines for judicial appointments...which is not on the list of things that need a supermajority as spelled out by the guidelines. This is clearly an attempt by the minority to usurp those guidelines.

Oh, and yes I can put dates on them.:)

?It is not the role of the Senate to obstruct the process and prevent numbers of highly qualified nominees from even being given the opportunity for a vote on the Senate floor.? - Sen. Barbara Boxer (D-CA) 5/14/97

CkG
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: MonstaThrilla
Where are you getting all these quotes from? Is there some "master list" that the vast rightwing conspiracy keeps of all Democratic quotes that can be used to bite them in the ass later? More importantly, what context were these quotes made in? What was it that provoked the various Dems to make those statements? You seem to gloss over that very important detail...

But quotes from the past still don't explain why a large minority in Congress can't use its power to filibuster whatever it wants. Like has been said here a million times, its all about "checks and balances". I know that's a hard concept when your party controls all facets of government (yes even the judicial which SHOULD NOT be controlled by any party), but its one that is essential to American government.

Read my posts - I have been very clear why there is a problem with this sort of action.

"Vast rightwing conspiracy" to keep quotes? No - not really, but anyone with any skills can find these quotes. But yes there there is a spot where most(if not all) of what I have posted reside. I went digging for the quotes because I remembered them being said back in the day. I've followed politics quite avidly since about 1989.

?It is our job to confirm these judges. If we don?t like them, we can vote against them.? -Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-CA) 9/16/99

CkG
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
The problem with the filibuster in this case is that Constitutionally there are guidlines for judicial appointments...which is not on the list of things that need a supermajority as spelled out by the guidelines. This is clearly an attempt by the minority to usurp those guidelines.

Oh, and yes I can put dates on them.:)

?It is not the role of the Senate to obstruct the process and prevent numbers of highly qualified nominees from even being given the opportunity for a vote on the Senate floor.? - Sen. Barbara Boxer (D-CA) 5/14/97

CkG

Okay, so at least this quote is from the Clinton years. And the quote itself seems to suggest that the republicans in the senate were blocking up-down votes on Clinton nominees. What were the republicans doing exactly to prevent that if they weren't filibustering? And how is that different in outcome from what the dems are doing now?
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
The problem with the filibuster in this case is that Constitutionally there are guidlines for judicial appointments...which is not on the list of things that need a supermajority as spelled out by the guidelines. This is clearly an attempt by the minority to usurp those guidelines.

Oh, and yes I can put dates on them.:)

?It is not the role of the Senate to obstruct the process and prevent numbers of highly qualified nominees from even being given the opportunity for a vote on the Senate floor.? - Sen. Barbara Boxer (D-CA) 5/14/97

CkG

Okay, so at least this quote is from the Clinton years. And the quote itself seems to suggest that the republicans in the senate were blocking up-down votes on Clinton nominees. What were the republicans doing exactly to prevent that if they weren't filibustering? And how is that different in outcome from what the dems are doing now?


The difference is that these Bush nomonees passed commitee scrutiny and were sent to the floor for a vote. As has been posted - every Clinton nominee that made it to the floor for a vote - was voted on.

?Our institutional integrity requires an up-or-down vote.? - Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-CA) 10/4/99

CkG
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
The problem with the filibuster in this case is that Constitutionally there are guidlines for judicial appointments...which is not on the list of things that need a supermajority as spelled out by the guidelines. This is clearly an attempt by the minority to usurp those guidelines.

Oh, and yes I can put dates on them.:)

?It is not the role of the Senate to obstruct the process and prevent numbers of highly qualified nominees from even being given the opportunity for a vote on the Senate floor.? - Sen. Barbara Boxer (D-CA) 5/14/97

CkG

Okay, so at least this quote is from the Clinton years. And the quote itself seems to suggest that the republicans in the senate were blocking up-down votes on Clinton nominees. What were the republicans doing exactly to prevent that if they weren't filibustering? And how is that different in outcome from what the dems are doing now?


The difference is that these Bush nomonees passed commitee scrutiny and were sent to the floor for a vote. As has been posted - every Clinton nominee that made it to the floor for a vote - was voted on.

?Our institutional integrity requires an up-or-down vote.? - Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-CA) 10/4/99

CkG

So the republicans during Clinton's term held up the nominees PRIOR to making it to the floor for an up-down vote? Okay, so there's a procedural difference, but in the end it's effectively the same thing...
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
The problem with the filibuster in this case is that Constitutionally there are guidlines for judicial appointments...which is not on the list of things that need a supermajority as spelled out by the guidelines. This is clearly an attempt by the minority to usurp those guidelines.

Oh, and yes I can put dates on them.:)

?It is not the role of the Senate to obstruct the process and prevent numbers of highly qualified nominees from even being given the opportunity for a vote on the Senate floor.? - Sen. Barbara Boxer (D-CA) 5/14/97

CkG

Okay, so at least this quote is from the Clinton years. And the quote itself seems to suggest that the republicans in the senate were blocking up-down votes on Clinton nominees. What were the republicans doing exactly to prevent that if they weren't filibustering? And how is that different in outcome from what the dems are doing now?


The difference is that these Bush nomonees passed commitee scrutiny and were sent to the floor for a vote. As has been posted - every Clinton nominee that made it to the floor for a vote - was voted on.

?Our institutional integrity requires an up-or-down vote.? - Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-CA) 10/4/99

CkG

So the republicans during Clinton's term held up the nominees PRIOR to making it to the floor for an up-down vote? Okay, so there's a procedural difference, but in the end it's effectively the same thing...

The Republicans blocked some nominees in the commitee...you know...where they review the candidate and such. If a candidate doesn't make it out of commitee there is no floor vote. It is hardly the same thing but yes at the end of the day both judges were blocked. Once a nominee passes commitee scrutiny they are entitled a vote...or atleast that's what people were saying a few years ago.;)

?It is true that some Senators have voiced concerns about these nominations. But that should not prevent a roll call vote which gives every Senator the opportunity to vote ?yes? or ?no.? ... Parties with cases, waiting to be heard by the federal courts deserve a decision by the Senate.? - Sen. Ted Kennedy (D-MA) 9/21/99

CkG
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: markuskidd
What do you think the point of the filibuster rule is if it's not to allow this sort of thing?

Well, actually they aren't filibustering...they are just threatening it. I wouldn't have as big of a problem if they actually performed the filibuster and were held to keeping it going...a total stoppage. But to individually block 1 vote by making it a supermajority vote sets a bad precident. Now everything that the minority doesn't want can be blocked by them...under threat.

Do you know the history of it? Cloture allows the breaking of an actuall filibuster - not a threat of one. I'm in favor of holding them to the filibuster instead of allowing them to just threaten. Lets hear them bastages try to hold the floor...until they break the filibuster(if they stop talking).

What do you think the filibuster is for? - and If I hear that "checks and balances" BS anymore about this...I'll filibuster this thread...since I am a minority on this board full of Libs.;):p

?I would object and fight against any filibuster on a judge, whether it is somebody I opposed or supported ?? Sen. Patrick Leahy (D-VT) 6/18/98

CkG
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
So the republicans during Clinton's term held up the nominees PRIOR to making it to the floor for an up-down vote? Okay, so there's a procedural difference, but in the end it's effectively the same thing...

The Republicans blocked some nominees in the commitee...you know...where they review the candidate and such. If a candidate doesn't make it out of commitee there is no floor vote. It is hardly the same thing but yes at the end of the day both judges were blocked. Once a nominee passes commitee scrutiny they are entitled a vote...or atleast that's what people were saying a few years ago.;)

CkG

Okay, another question or two: 1.) Did the republicans effectively control the Senate Judiciary Committee during Clinton's two terms? 2.) Do they control it now during Bush's term?
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: LunarRay
Originally posted by: Morbius
Not ONCE did Republicans ever filibuster in Congress to prevent a judicial appointment. Every one of Clinton's nominations that was promoted out of committee received a vote on the floor of Congress.

There has never been a filibuster to prevent a vote on Judicial nominees, to my knowledge. There was a different procedure used to block nominated folks from getting to even have a hearing. Hatch changed all that so that the senators of the nominee's state have little or no say in the matter.

Exactly...so the argument of "they did it first" (or under Clinton) is BS;)

?Now, every Senator can vote against any nominee. ? But it is the responsibility of the U.S. Senate to at least bring them to a vote.? -Sen. Patrick Leahy (D-VT)

CkG

After a nights sleep and thinking on this, I think I come down on the side of the majority (republicans) on this issue. I think the filibuster tactic is devisive and seeks to preclude the Senate from performing its sworn duty. The President has the duty to nominate and he has. Advise and Consent is a majority function. I think the debating is a waste of time on most issues other than to provide insight to the Courts regarding the intent of legislation when it is ambigious and they need to rule on something that pertains to it. But, this cloture requirement of 60 votes to close the debate as it applies to Advise and Consent issues invades the Presidents authority. Up or down is how it should be.
I certainly don't agree with the President's choices (except one) but, he has that job and I've got mine...
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
So the republicans during Clinton's term held up the nominees PRIOR to making it to the floor for an up-down vote? Okay, so there's a procedural difference, but in the end it's effectively the same thing...

The Republicans blocked some nominees in the commitee...you know...where they review the candidate and such. If a candidate doesn't make it out of commitee there is no floor vote. It is hardly the same thing but yes at the end of the day both judges were blocked. Once a nominee passes commitee scrutiny they are entitled a vote...or atleast that's what people were saying a few years ago.;)

CkG

Okay, another question or two: 1.) Did the republicans effectively control the Senate Judiciary Committee during Clinton's two terms? 2.) Do they control it now during Bush's term?

Most of Clinton's 8 years - Republicans held more seats than Democrats in the Senate. And yes Republicans hold more seats in the Senate currently.

Now I have one for you. Did any of Clinton's judicial nominees take a super majority to confirm on the Senate floor?

?[The filibuster process] is used ? as blackmail for one Senator to get his or her way on something that they could not rightfully win through the normal processes.? Sen. Tom Harkin (D-IA) 1/4/95

CkG
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
So the republicans during Clinton's term held up the nominees PRIOR to making it to the floor for an up-down vote? Okay, so there's a procedural difference, but in the end it's effectively the same thing...

The Republicans blocked some nominees in the commitee...you know...where they review the candidate and such. If a candidate doesn't make it out of commitee there is no floor vote. It is hardly the same thing but yes at the end of the day both judges were blocked. Once a nominee passes commitee scrutiny they are entitled a vote...or atleast that's what people were saying a few years ago.;)

CkG

Okay, another question or two: 1.) Did the republicans effectively control the Senate Judiciary Committee during Clinton's two terms? 2.) Do they control it now during Bush's term?

Most of Clinton's 8 years - Republicans held more seats than Democrats in the Senate. And yes Republicans hold more seats in the Senate currently.

Now I have one for you. Did any of Clinton's judicial nominees take a super majority to confirm on the Senate floor?

?[The filibuster process] is used ? as blackmail for one Senator to get his or her way on something that they could not rightfully win through the normal processes.? Sen. Tom Harkin (D-IA) 1/4/95

CkG

Well, that question brings me to this statement: During Clinton's terms in office, Republicans who controlled the Senate blocked liberal judicial nominees by blocking them at the Senate Judicial Committee level before the Senate was given a chance to vote. So they look "good" by comparison to the democrats who cannot block conservative judges at the committee level because they don't have enough seats to do so. So the democrats look "bad" because the filibuster is the only tool they have to stop activist judges. So essentially, both sides did the same thing, only the Bush nominees made it further along in the process because the Rs control the Senate.

I don't see the big deal here. Both parties effectively did the same thing for the same reasons. BTW: I'm not condemning the Rs from blocking via committee either, so I don't think I'm being necessarily partisan. ;)
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Well, that question brings me to this statement: During Clinton's terms in office, Republicans who controlled the Senate blocked liberal judicial nominees by blocking them at the Senate Judicial Committee level before the Senate was given a chance to vote. So they look "good" by comparison to the democrats who cannot block conservative judges at the committee level because they don't have enough seats to do so. So the democrats look "bad" because the filibuster is the only tool they have to stop activist judges. So essentially, both sides did the same thing, only the Bush nominees made it further along in the process because the Rs control the Senate.

I don't see the big deal here. Both parties effectively did the same thing for the same reasons. BTW: I'm not condemning the Rs from blocking via committee either, so I don't think I'm being necessarily partisan. ;)

LunyRay - have you read my PM yet?;) See what I mean?:D

DealMonkey - I will address this in a bit. I'm waiting to see what Luny has to say on that argument.:D

?We owe it to Americans across the country to give these nominees a vote. If our ... colleagues don?t like them, vote against them. But give them a vote.? Sen. Ted Kennedy (D-MA) 2/3/98

CkG
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Well, that question brings me to this statement: During Clinton's terms in office, Republicans who controlled the Senate blocked liberal judicial nominees by blocking them at the Senate Judicial Committee level before the Senate was given a chance to vote. So they look "good" by comparison to the democrats who cannot block conservative judges at the committee level because they don't have enough seats to do so. So the democrats look "bad" because the filibuster is the only tool they have to stop activist judges. So essentially, both sides did the same thing, only the Bush nominees made it further along in the process because the Rs control the Senate.

I don't see the big deal here. Both parties effectively did the same thing for the same reasons. BTW: I'm not condemning the Rs from blocking via committee either, so I don't think I'm being necessarily partisan. ;)

LunyRay - have you read my PM yet?;) See what I mean?:D

DealMonkey - I will address this in a bit. I'm waiting to see what Luny has to say on that argument.:D

I did and responded at 2:14 real time. :)

?We owe it to Americans across the country to give these nominees a vote. If our ... colleagues don?t like them, vote against them. But give them a vote.? Sen. Ted Kennedy (D-MA) 2/3/98

CkG

 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: LunarRay

I did and responded at 2:14 real time. :)

No - the "other" part;) Please? That's what I was waiting for;)

But as you stated - it's all about the majority...wether in committee or on the floor...unless people wish to take issue with the majority's right to vote to not send the nominee to the floor. In this case the majority voted to send it to the floor and wishes to vote and confirm via majority on the floor. In the "old" cases if the majority(committee) didn't send the nominee to the floor - that was their right, no?

CkG

Edit- and it was actually 4:14 "real time":D
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
This is some of the discussions regarding the issue

The question of whether requiring 60 votes to invoke cloture was constitutional was debated extensively. Lloyd Cutler, former Counsel to President Carter, testified that the requirement for a supermajority is unconstitutional and that the Senate needs to correct this. ``I also submit that the Senate, which is in part a judicial body, has a judicial duty to consider and decide this question. And if a majority of the Senate were to agree that the supermajority requirements are unconstitutional, that same majority can, in my view, and should, amend the rule so that a majority vote would be sufficient to cut off debate.''9 Whether ``filibusters or the supermajority requirements of the rule are desirable or undesirable is beside the point,'' he continued.10

Mr. Cutler offered several arguments in support of his assertion, including the absence in the Constitution of ending debate among the cases where a supermajority is needed to take action. Also, he cited the quorum clause of the Constitution which states that a majority shall constitute a quorum to do business. ``For the Senate to adopt a rule, as it has, requiring the affirmative vote of 60 Senators to pass such a motion clearly violates the quorum clause of the Constitution...It means a supermajority of at least 61 Senators...must be present as the quorum to do the business of voting on the cloture motion and that 60 of them must be present to vote for cloture. That is a plain violation of the quorum provision of the Constitution itself.''11 Some Members countered that because the Constitution allows each House to determine the rules of its proceedings, the Senate may adopt a rule requiring a supermajority to invoke cloture.

Former Vice President Walter Mondale, the last witness to appear before the Joint Committee, spoke against major changes in the cloture rule but also warned that indiscriminate use of dilatory tactics might force changes in long-standing Senate traditions. ``I continue to support the current rules governing filibusters. I helped lead the fight to bring about the current 60-vote threshold. The reason I still stick with the need, though, is that I went through a time when I think American liberty was under threat. I went through a time here when wars were being started without the knowledge of the Senate. I went through a time here when money was being spent or impounded illegally . . . A lot of us found the ability to ventilate an issue, to get it out, to debate it, to stall everything, to be essential. There was no other place to go, really . . . No other institution in our system can perform this task. On the other hand, the increasing use of the filibuster on what appear to be normal, even routine, legislative issues may be weakening public support for this instrument...If Members continue to use the filibuster to fight over issues that are most appropriately resolved through simple majority vote, the body may soon find itself under pressure to get rid of this important protection, and I believe that would be a tragedy.''12

Holds

Another focus of attention pertained to the use of holds to delay or prevent items from being called up for consideration. In favor of limiting the use of holds, some argued that a historical Senate courtesy of temporary delay is being abused, with Senators using blanket holds for a number of bills, keeping holds on bills indefinitely, and using holds to retaliate against colleagues who have not supported their legislation. Sometimes staff put holds on bills and Senators do not know about it, some Senators asserted. On the problem of holds, Senator James Exon of Nebraska testified that ``the Senate time and time again has been tied into knots with the whole procedure [of holds], especially near the end of a session by the current ability of one Senator to stop a bill from proceeding by unanimous consent through the threat of an extended debate.''13

Several suggestions for limiting the use of holds were put forth. Senator Exon proposed requiring 16 Senators to place a hold on a bill, just as 16 Senators must sign a cloture petition before it can be filed, since a hold is a form of ``reverse cloture.'' Professor Smith stated that five objections, rather than one, should be required to object to a floor leader's request to call up a measure (as well as a request to limit debate or amendments.) Others said that the names of Senators placing holds should be made public, to enable Senators to work out their differences on relevant matters. Still others advocated imposing a time limit during which holds would be in effect. Rather than reform the hold itself, Senator Pete Domenici of New Mexico, Joint Committee Co-Vice-Chairman, noted that the Senate will go a long way towards eliminating holds by eliminating or reducing debate on the motion to proceed. Finally, some asserted that no change to the rules is needed; rather, what is necessary is the determination to proceed, and the Majority Leader should proceed with calling up items for consideration.

I think this is in this link..
 

markuskidd

Senior member
Sep 2, 2002
360
0
0
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: markuskidd
What do you think the point of the filibuster rule is if it's not to allow this sort of thing?

Well, actually they aren't filibustering...they are just threatening it. I wouldn't have as big of a problem if they actually performed the filibuster and were held to keeping it going...a total stoppage. But to individually block 1 vote by making it a supermajority vote sets a bad precident. Now everything that the minority doesn't want can be blocked by them...under threat.

Do you know the history of it? Cloture allows the breaking of an actuall filibuster - not a threat of one. I'm in favor of holding them to the filibuster instead of allowing them to just threaten. Lets hear them bastages try to hold the floor...until they break the filibuster(if they stop talking).

What do you think the filibuster is for? - and If I hear that "checks and balances" BS anymore about this...I'll filibuster this thread...since I am a minority on this board full of Libs.;):p

?I would object and fight against any filibuster on a judge, whether it is somebody I opposed or supported ?? Sen. Patrick Leahy (D-VT) 6/18/98

CkG

Just as everything could be blocked by the filibuster itself. I'm not sure why you'd feel better if the democrats actually filibustered to waste a bunch of time and block the vote rather than just telling the republicans that they will until they get some different nominees.

The filibuster is something that has been established for the purpose of keeping the majority party from ramming all kinds of legislation, appointments, etc. down the throats of the minority party. If this priviledge is abused, it's within the power of the senate to change the rule. As it stands, this is exactly what the filibuster is supposed to be used for -- to block something, our opinions nonwithstanding, that the minority party feels goes to far.

That's just how the senate is designed to work. The distinction between the threat of filibustering and the filibuster itself doesn't seem particularly important. The fact is that the filibuster is one of the senate's tools.




You didn't answer my question:

What do you think the filibuster is for if not for this kind of situation?
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
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www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: markuskidd
Just as everything could be blocked by the filibuster itself. I'm not sure why you'd feel better if the democrats actually filibustered to waste a bunch of time and block the vote rather than just telling the republicans that they will until they get some different nominees.

The filibuster is something that has been established for the purpose of keeping the majority party from ramming all kinds of legislation, appointments, etc. down the throats of the minority party. If this priviledge is abused, it's within the power of the senate to change the rule. As it stands, this is exactly what the filibuster is supposed to be used for -- to block something, our opinions nonwithstanding, that the minority party feels goes to far.

That's just how the senate is designed to work. The distinction between the threat of filibustering and the filibuster itself doesn't seem particularly important. The fact is that the filibuster is one of the senate's tools.
You didn't answer my question:
What do you think the filibuster is for if not for this kind of situation?

The reason is that a filibuster was meant for more debate on issues - that is not what it is currently being used for..except last night(but that wasn't really a filibuster anyway). The ONLY reason it's being used is to force a supermajority vote on these judges(not to extend debate) which is NOT how judges are supposed to be approved. It's a loophole that is being abused to bypass the Constitutional proceedure of judicial confirmations. Like I said - this sets a dangerous precident because it's now being used to block things that are supposed to only take a simple majority to pass. There are a few reasons for a supermajority to be needed - confirming judges is not one of them. To use the filibuster to do so - is wrong. The filibuster can be a good thing and I would support it...but this supermajority for cloture is asinine because it allows tyrany of the minority. You can sit there and spout off about "shoving" thing down people's throats but that's only because you sit on the minority side - and so it just feels like shoving. The fact of the matter is - that these nominees passed commitee and now require a majority floor vote. Got that? A MAJORITY - which is what they have. Not a super-majority - a majority. 51 votes. If it's "ramming down their throat" when a simple majority passes something(lets just say 51-xx) then why weren't the procedures set up to always require a super-majority? Why not always use it to get your way?
Read what I've said about this - I've stated what a filibuster is for. Extending the debate is it's intent - NOT to be used to effectivly change the voting procedures and requirements.

CkG
 

AEB

Senior member
Jun 12, 2003
681
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i waited to post on this topic but i can see you are all missing the point. The american people elected those republicans to be the majority, thus we can say they represent the majority of the country( you can argue this but this is the way American works). Senators are there to cast votes. Votes you and i would cast only since it isnt feasablie for all of us to vote(or understand everything) we elect them. If they aren't voting its like we are not voting.

And a side not on philibusters, it was made to sway people but as one sentor said no one was going to change their mind. This is the same thing the minority dems did in texas. Except in texas they crossed the border and broke the law.
Its simple you are there to vote the way the population in your state wants you to. NOt to screw off.
 

Tripleshot

Elite Member
Jan 29, 2000
7,218
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Republicans stopped Senate business for 39 straight hours to complain that Democrats are standing up to Bush on his right-wing judicial nominees. Here are the facts:

>The Senate has confirmed 168 of President Bush's judicial nominees.
>Democrats have filibustered just four of Bush's nominees because they hold extremist, ultraconservative views far outside the mainstream.
>Republicans blocked 63 of President Clinton's nominees to the federal bench.
>Republicans refused to give many of Clinton's nominees hearings at all, and even blocked some of them with anonymous holds from a single Republican Senator.
>The federal judiciary has fewer vacancies now than any time for the past 20 years.

This Republican publicity stunt is about one thing: packing the court with ultraconservative ideologues who will reverse decades of progress on civil rights, worker's rights, reproductive rights, environmental protections, and much more.

"Republican leaders dropped plans to try to force a vote on a rules change proposed by Majority Leader Bill Frist (R-Tenn.) to bar the use of filibusters to block a [judicial] nominee indefinitely. Asked why the Senate would not try to change the rule, GOP Conference Chairman Rick Santorum (R-Pa.) cited 'uncertainty' over votes, noting that some Republicans are reluctant to give up a weapon they might want to use someday against liberal nominees proposed by a Democratic president."


This is a cut and paste from an email I recieved.
I think you needed to know that, although for most it would be obvious. ;)