Discussion Senate Dems; Hammer or Olive Branch?

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woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,188
14,092
136
What is the point in not taking the deal? Joe Manchin went on Fox News and "solemnly promised" he will never vote to end the filibuster. He locked himself into a position where he will never win re-election in WV if he votes to end it. Asshole.

So there's zero chance of ending it now. What is the point is keeping the option open?
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,046
33,093
136
What is the point in not taking the deal? Joe Manchin went on Fox News and "solemnly promised" he will never vote to end the filibuster. He locked himself into a position where he will never win re-election in WV if he votes to end it. Asshole.

So there's zero chance of ending it now. What is the point is keeping the option open?

It is possible to change the rules of the filibuster so dramatically as to basically end it or greatly limit it but not get rid of it entirely. As an example right now somebody sends an email saying they're going to filibuster something instead of having to hold the floor and talk like the good old days. No reason they couldn't go back to that.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,046
33,093
136
I will literally LOL if McConnell manages to kill the filibuster over a demand for a promise to not kill the filibuster.


Yeah there are a few Ds who oppose killing it outright but they oppose not being allowed to assume the power they won in the election even more.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,055
48,054
136
What is the point in not taking the deal? Joe Manchin went on Fox News and "solemnly promised" he will never vote to end the filibuster. He locked himself into a position where he will never win re-election in WV if he votes to end it. Asshole.

So there's zero chance of ending it now. What is the point is keeping the option open?

If I had to list the best ways to kill the filibuster one would be having the minority party attempt to seize control of the chamber from the newly elected majority by using the filibuster.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,055
48,054
136
I will literally LOL if McConnell manages to kill the filibuster over a demand for a promise to not kill the filibuster.


Yeah there are a few Ds who oppose killing it outright but they oppose not being allowed to assume the power they won in the election even more.

Yes, this does have echoes of how Republicans killed the judicial filibuster. Democrats would have been perfectly happy to leave it in place but Republicans went so absolutely insane with it, basically saying they would no longer let the majority party and the president staff the federal government, that in the end the Democrats had no choice. If faced with a similar choice here - let McConnell dictate the rules of the Senate or surrender your majority, they may get the same result.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,046
33,093
136
If I had to list the best ways to kill the filibuster one would be having the minority party attempt to seize control of the chamber from the newly elected majority by using the filibuster.

This is why I cannot fathom why McConnell wants to have this fight over the organizing resolution. The longer this drags the stronger the case to eliminate or drastically change the filibuster becomes for even reluctant Ds.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,055
48,054
136
This is why I cannot fathom why McConnell wants to have this fight over the organizing resolution. The longer this drags the stronger the case to eliminate or drastically change the filibuster becomes for even reluctant Ds.
If I were a betting man I would bet that Democrats nuke yet another small part of the filibuster, saying you can't filibuster the organizing rules, then move forward.

McConnell will cynically claim that this shows Democrats aren't interested in unity and bipartisanship, and then we can all move on.
 
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K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,046
33,093
136
If I were a betting man I would bet that Democrats nuke yet another small part of the filibuster, saying you can't filibuster the organizing rules, then move forward.

McConnell will cynically claim that this shows Democrats aren't interested in unity and bipartisanship, and then we can all move on.

Until the next time I guess and they lop off another piece to get past him on something else. All the strategies seem to lead to the same place just by different paths.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,055
48,054
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Until the next time I guess and they lop off another piece to get past him on something else. All the strategies seem to lead to the same place just by different paths.
Yes, the death of the filibuster seems inevitable, just a question of when and how much damage is inflicted to the country before it goes.
 

Ajay

Lifer
Jan 8, 2001
15,458
7,862
136
If I were a betting man I would bet that Democrats nuke yet another small part of the filibuster, saying you can't filibuster the organizing rules, then move forward.

McConnell will cynically claim that this shows Democrats aren't interested in unity and bipartisanship, and then we can all move on.
Right, we are already almost here; fucking 5 days into the the Biden's swearing in and speech on bipartisanship. McConnell and crew will fight for every damn ounce of power they can get, even if it means driving a wrecking ball into the senate chamber. I was hopeful for, like, a whole 24 hours. Morons!
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,046
33,093
136
So basically what it was before. Manchin and Sinema reiterated positions they already repeatedly stated and Mitch has declared victory over Schumer.

I still think that eventually the most likely path will be a weakening of the filibuster when priority items that the caucus wants are blockaded by Rs who won't negotiate. Maybe reconciliation will be altered to cover more items than present. We will see.
 

VRAMdemon

Diamond Member
Aug 16, 2012
6,461
7,636
136
If I were a betting man I would bet that Democrats nuke yet another small part of the filibuster, saying you can't filibuster the organizing rules, then move forward.

McConnell will cynically claim that this shows Democrats aren't interested in unity and bipartisanship, and then we can all move on.

Anyone looking for logic in what exactly conservatives want in terms of “unifying” right now, you won’t find it, because that’s not the point. The point is that: Democrats spent 4 years decrying Trump's bullshit and divisiveness - and then - 4 years later Biden's inauguration speech talked about "unifying" the country. Soooo, therefore ANYTHING Democrats do that Republicans don’t like is some kind of bullshit "liberal hypocrisy".

That’s it. It’s people yelling at clouds, trying to score political points. Biden cancels the Keystone XL which Republicans don’t like, it’s - “Well look at Mr. Unity now!”. Congress impeaches obviously impeachable acts its - “TDS! ...Looks like Trump is living rent-free in Democrat’s heads.”

It’s all nonsense that NOBODY should take seriously.

The only possible way I can see any kind of "unity" to possibly sprout and grow would be a “truth and reconciliation” commission, where those who have committed sedition and other crimes and injustices be thoroughly questioned, with the understanding that the President will pardon those who answer TRUTHFULLY and COMPLETELY. Trump and his cultist handlers and followers will never tell the truth. So I don’t expect that to happen.

I STILL hear all this bullshit that if you address people’s needs - Mostly "peoples monetary needs" - most of the unrest - and populist extremism on the right - will disappear. :rolleyes:

I would love to believe this is true, but the movement that made Trump possible arose during an eight-year economic expansion under Obama, and many of the Capitol rioters are reported to have been successful professionals. Their beliefs and actions aren’t being driven by economic deprivation. Yes, there are glaring failures in (and genuine grievances with) our society, but there always have been, and until the last few years they didn’t trigger millions of Americans into believing alternate realities and fascist fantasies. You can’t punish or reach all these people that are living in an apeshit paranoid alternate reality. But you can punish the people pushing that agenda.
 

Ajay

Lifer
Jan 8, 2001
15,458
7,862
136
I STILL hear all this bullshit that if you address people’s needs - Mostly "peoples monetary needs" - most of the unrest - and populist extremism on the right - will disappear. :rolleyes:

I would love to believe this is true, but the movement that made Trump possible arose during an eight-year economic expansion under Obama, and many of the Capitol rioters are reported to have been successful professionals. Their beliefs and actions aren’t being driven by economic deprivation. Yes, there are glaring failures in (and genuine grievances with) our society, but there always have been, and until the last few years they didn’t trigger millions of Americans into believing alternate realities and fascist fantasies. You can’t punish or reach all these people that are living in an apeshit paranoid alternate reality. But you can punish the people pushing that agenda.

40 years of the Reagan 'revolution' and Gingrisch's 'contract with America' has been 40 years of agitprop and the shake down of the middle class (it takes special talent to 'steal' from the poor). Add in Christian fundamentalism the Evangelical re-interpretation of the Gospels ('Prosperity gospel'), resurgent racism and it's all gone to shit.
 

iRONic

Diamond Member
Jan 28, 2006
6,870
2,157
136
I just wish the Dems would act like they actually won the election. They really suck at messaging.

Pimp tf out of the stimulus and vax delivery but hammer the repugs in the press... call out the hypocrisy and obstruction.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,046
33,093
136
I just wish the Dems would act like they actually won the election. They really suck at messaging.

Pimp tf out of the stimulus and vax delivery but hammer the repugs in the press... call out the hypocrisy and obstruction.

Bernie is going to beat the absolute shit out of the Republicans when they try to sink a reconciliation bill.
 

NWRMidnight

Platinum Member
Jun 18, 2001
2,945
2,558
136
I really hope the Dems start showing their teeth. People desperately need stimulus cash.

This guy is an idiot. Obama/Democrats only had control for the first 10 months, with taking over a bad economy and facing a pandemic. The first part of Obama care was signed into law March of 2010. Also, the 9.6% (not 10%) unemployment in that same year (2010) was caused by the recession Obama took over from Bush, which had nothing to do with Obama Care. Unemployment dropped every year after that down to 4.7% when Trump took over the white house. Funny, the republican's have had control of Congress and the Senate for nearly the last 10 years, and the last 4 years the presidency as well, and they yet to offer anything for healthcare. Yet this joker tries to take a stab at Obama for it taking 14 months from Obama's inauguration.

Tweets with false and manipulated facts, along with the general public to stupid to realize, it is what is destroying and dividing our country.
 
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Ajay

Lifer
Jan 8, 2001
15,458
7,862
136
I really hope the Dems start showing their teeth. People desperately need stimulus cash.
Absolutely! The Rs are whining about the 'ink not even being dry' on the previous bill.
Well salad brains, you should've have thought about that when passing a paltry $900B dollar stimulus package.
It should have been 4 times that to begin with. I think Biden's plan is too modest given the economic impact of COVID-19 (well, not bad including if the 900B is taken into consideration).
I also want a 4-5 Trillion $ infrastructure and energy bill, but the tax reform required for that would probably cause republican's heads to explode (not entirely a _bad_ thing).
 
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