Sen. Warren proposes to cancel student loan debt

[Majes]

Basically half of private colleges explicitly admit they give admissions preference to those whose parents went to the same college. Those are just the ones who admit it.

On what planet does that sound like anything close to equal opportunity.

It doesn't. But I don't think private colleges recruiting through alumni or choosing students who they know will fit their culture are bad things.

At some point it stops being "assist those who started with less" and becomes "take from those who started with more". I'm just pushing back a little against the second.

 

[thilanliyan]

Ah, if used the way that you guys like then yes it is theft. Should the wealthy pay their share. Of course. At 70% though? That's ridiculous. What do you think they'll do? They'll pack up and move to another country. They have that option. We don't.

Errr...personal taxes is not the same as corporate taxes. Higher personal taxes encourages business owners to re-invest in their own business which generally have lower taxes. And I guess it needs to be said again but it's a 70% marginal rate, not 70% of all income.

 

[Greenman]

It's so cute you think there is equal opportunity. The most likely indicator of success in the US right now is how well off your parents were.

I can only respond to this with a hearty "Duh!". Money begets money. When your parents are loaded, of course they're going to set you on the path to success.

 

[Blackjack200]

I can only respond to this with a hearty "Duh!". Money begets money. When your parents are loaded, of course they're going to set you on the path to success.

He was responding to someone that was claiming we have equal opportunity here. Maybe your "Duh!" should be directed at that person.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

I'm not really on the "blanket forgiveness" bandwagon. And frankly, if someone was dumb enough to pay a quarter million bucks for a useless degree at a for profit college they selected because it has luxury apartment dorms and swimming pool - I don’t want to help them either.

I might be in favor of virtually free or low cost state and city college, i think NYC made a great move by making CUNY ( City University of New York) free to most students.
And I could support a program like HARP, maybe making provisions to refinance the worst loans at low or no interest.

Yeah, god forbid people be held liable. "I can't control my own actions!"

Also, there already is a "virtually free or low cost state and city college"... it's called community college... but you know.. it's not cool... It doesn't have RADICAL dorm rooms, a mega high rise swimming pool or anything... it's just.. you know.. classes. Some kids need their safe space, ya know?

1) Provide education with full rides to the top 10-20% of students at every high school. I believe GWB put this in place during his time as governor or Texas.
2) Limit the amount that can be borrowed - even from private sources - for college. This applies downward pressure on rising college costs.
3) Make students loans bankruptable. Give the lenders some skin in the game. Make them have to assume risk to make the loans. As it is it's another example of 'privatized profit/socialized risk' that we see so often in the financial industry.

FYI - Rule in Texas is Top 10% of graduates from high school can go to any public university in the state IIRC. I don't recall that it has anything to do with financial aspects of it - just acceptance into the university

 

[fskimospy]

Yeah, god forbid people be held liable. "I can't control my own actions!"

Also, there already is a "virtually free or low cost state and city college"... it's called community college... but you know.. it's not cool... It doesn't have RADICAL dorm rooms, a mega high rise swimming pool or anything... it's just.. you know.. classes. Some kids need their safe space, ya know?

Community colleges do not offer four year degrees so that's not really an answer. The right answer to all of this is to eliminate student loans and return to publicly funding all expenses at public universities for those with the ability to get in.

All student loans were was an attempt by the baby boomers to escape responsibility for paying to educate their children. The boomers are seriously the worst generation in American history. Total freeloaders.

 

[Blackjack200]

Yeah, god forbid people be held liable. "I can't control my own actions!"

Also, there already is a "virtually free or low cost state and city college"... it's called community college... but you know.. it's not cool... It doesn't have RADICAL dorm rooms, a mega high rise swimming pool or anything... it's just.. you know.. classes. Some kids need their safe space, ya know?

I love community college, I went to one myself. Offer CC free to all, offer public state universities fee to anyone that completes their two year program. Get rid of federal backing for student loans, and make student debt dischargeable in bankruptcy.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

I love community college, I went to one myself. Offer CC free to all, offer public state universities fee to anyone that completes their two year program. Get rid of federal backing for student loans, and make student debt dischargeable in bankruptcy.

I went to community college for my first 2 years as well. Guess what? Got the same credits as if I went to the university.

But I didn't get to stay in a SUPER DUPER COOL DORM with tons of amenities.

I'm fine with your overall plan - outside of discharging debt. Honestly, I don't think it should be completely discharged, perhaps something more reasonable (like reduce interest and payment amounts). Complete discharge? Nah.

 

[UglyCasanova]

Here is a challenge for you, wtf does it matter what you lied about here 2 years ago?

I lied about being against the tax cuts?

 

[jackstar7]

So how would you change the system to be more equal opportunity?

Do you grant the premise that it is not equal opportunity?

 

[jackstar7]

At some point it stops being "assist those who started with less" and becomes "take from those who started with more". I'm just pushing back a little against the second.

What do you have to lose?

 

[Genx87]

My own theory is that you solve most of the problem by treating it like consumer debt - allow it to be discharged in bankruptcy and take away the federal guarantees.

The issue with that has been. With other consumer debt there is an asset that can be repossessed a lender can use to offset losses from the loan failure. You cant repossess knowledge or an education.

My issue with forgiveness. What stops it from happening again? Forgiveness doesn't address the underlying problem of exploding student debt. It is an easy populist policy to gain votes.

With that said. Avg student debt is around 35-40k. I'm trying to figure out how that is unmanageable for avg graduates? For somebody who racks up an avg debt but doesnt graduate that is an issue. But I mean, these people who graduate will see a larger income. A payment for 40k in debt shouldnt be a killer situation. A car payment is probably about the same. But a car is a depreciating asset where their education and career appreciates over time.

 

[Majes]

Do you grant the premise that it is not equal opportunity?

Sure, there's no human system that will provide perfect equal opportunity. You want the system that supports the most desirable outcomes.

What do you have to lose?

Part of "equal opportunity" is the benefits of working hard and being talented. If you take away the fruits of that then the system collapses. I have many things that I could lose.

 

[ivwshane]

I'm fine with interest forgiveness but not debt forgiveness with regard to student loans. Loans issued by the government to individuals for the purpose of investing in our future shouldn't be a source of profit. They should be interest free loans that cannot be discharged.

At the same time though, I think these loans should only apply to public colleges unless there are price controls put in place for private colleges.

 

[jackstar7]

Sure, there's no human system that will provide perfect equal opportunity. You want the system that supports the most desirable outcomes.

Part of "equal opportunity" is the benefits of working hard and being talented. If you take away the fruits of that then the system collapses. I have many things that I could lose.

Can you elaborate on what you believe to be your potential losses here?

 

[Majes]

Can you elaborate on what you believe to be your potential losses here?

"Here" meaning in the case of student loan forgiveness? Or in providing everyone with perfect equal opportunity?

I'm going to assume you mean the student loan forgiveness since the perils of forcing everyone to have an equal starting point are terrifying and would mean me losing almost everything.

So for student loan forgiveness:
My first loss would be in any additional tax dollars taken from me to support this program.
My second would through the economic changes that student loan reform would cause. It's very possible that I could miss out on different opportunities due to more competition as different people find themselves with more money.

 

[TheVrolok]

"Here" meaning in the case of student loan forgiveness? Or in providing everyone with perfect equal opportunity?

I'm going to assume you mean the student loan forgiveness since the perils of forcing everyone to have an equal starting point are terrifying and would mean me losing almost everything.

So for student loan forgiveness:
My first loss would be in any additional tax dollars taken from me to support this program.
My second would through the economic changes that student loan reform would cause. It's very possible that I could miss out on different opportunities due to more competition as different people find themselves with more money.

That second point is just ridiculous. You could just as possibly find yourself in the opposite alternative reality.

 

[TheVrolok]

I'm fine with interest forgiveness but not debt forgiveness with regard to student loans. Loans issued by the government to individuals for the purpose of investing in our future shouldn't be a source of profit. They should be interest free loans that cannot be discharged.

At the same time though, I think these loans should only apply to public colleges unless there are price controls put in place for private colleges.

I like that idea as a middle around. I would have no issues whatsoever paying back principal. In fact, by the time my loans are forgiven I will have paid back the principal with interest. (provided we don't get a new loan forgiveness program)

 

[Majes]

That second point is just ridiculous. You could just as possibly find yourself in the opposite alternative reality.

I'm not sure what you mean...
You don't think there would be an economic shuffle if you forgive a trillion dollars of debt? Or were you talking about the "perfect equal opportunity"? That would of course be an alternate reality that is difficult to imagine.

 

[TheVrolok]

I'm not sure what you mean...
You don't think there would be an economic shuffle if you forgive a trillion dollars of debt? Or were you talking about the "perfect equal opportunity"? That would of course be an alternate reality that is difficult to imagine.

Of course there would be, but it's not logical to make an assumption that it would negatively effect you (I suppose unless your fortunes are tied in directly with those of the lenders). The shuffle of money might just as easily create positive opportunities for you.

 

[dank69]

I went to community college for my first 2 years as well. Guess what? Got the same credits as if I went to the university.

But I didn't get to stay in a SUPER DUPER COOL DORM with tons of amenities.

I'm fine with your overall plan - outside of discharging debt. Honestly, I don't think it should be completely discharged, perhaps something more reasonable (like reduce interest and payment amounts). Complete discharge? Nah.

This is like the 3rd time you have complained about dorm rooms today. I recently became an armchair psychologist and think you may have a problem with jealousy, specifically stemming from dorm room envy.

 

[Blackjack200]

The issue with that has been. With other consumer debt there is an asset that can be repossessed a lender can use to offset losses from the loan failure. You cant repossess knowledge or an education.

Sometimes I use "consumer debt" as a synonym for "unsecured debt" like credit card debt. That's what I should have said. Student loan debt should be like any other unsecured debt. That will shrink the market considerably as lenders will need actual underwriting standards rather than just lending to everyone and knowing that the government will bail them out.

My issue with forgiveness. What stops it from happening again? Forgiveness doesn't address the underlying problem of exploding student debt. It is an easy populist policy to gain votes.

The changes above prevent it from happening again.

With that said. Avg student debt is around 35-40k. I'm trying to figure out how that is unmanageable for avg graduates? For somebody who racks up an avg debt but doesnt graduate that is an issue. But I mean, these people who graduate will see a larger income. A payment for 40k in debt shouldnt be a killer situation. A car payment is probably about the same. But a car is a depreciating asset where their education and career appreciates over time.

I think $40k is a huge debt, I think it's demoralizing, I think these debt levels are choking an entire generation and I don't think it should be allowed to continue. But that's just one fellow's opinion.

 

[jackstar7]

"Here" meaning in the case of student loan forgiveness? Or in providing everyone with perfect equal opportunity?

I'm going to assume you mean the student loan forgiveness since the perils of forcing everyone to have an equal starting point are terrifying and would mean me losing almost everything.

So for student loan forgiveness:
My first loss would be in any additional tax dollars taken from me to support this program.
My second would through the economic changes that student loan reform would cause. It's very possible that I could miss out on different opportunities due to more competition as different people find themselves with more money.

So all your hypothetical losses are strictly financial? Am I reading that correctly?

 

[Blackjack200]

So all your hypothetical losses are strictly financial? Am I reading that correctly?

It is nice to see a conservative admit that other people getting having more resources can impact their own situations. Now if only they could extend that to the cartoonish inequality out there.

 

[Greenman]

He was responding to someone that was claiming we have equal opportunity here. Maybe your "Duh!" should be directed at that person.

Didn't see that post. Must be someone on my ignore list.