Sen. Bernie Sanders introduces Estate Tax bill, commentary

[NoWhereM]

If political aristocracy was bad why is financial aristocracy good?

Why give an exemption of 3.5 millon dollars if financial aristocracy is bad? Why vary the estate tax rate as wealth goes up if financial aristocracy is bad? Why write a tax law in a way that exempts certain people and punishes others? Why doesn't everyone own at least two cats? It just doesn't make any sense.

 

[Tom]

This "fair share" bullshit pisses me off.

It is NOT the government's job to decide how wealthy people should be. The government's job is to make sure everyone has the OPPORTUNITY to be as wealthy as everyone else, not to make it so they are.

When, exactly, was the government given the right to take everyone's money and redistribute it as they saw fit?

well, estate tax does spread OPPORTUNITY around so you ought to be in favor of it.

 

[Craig234]

Speaking for myself, I have a problem with increased taxes when at the same time:
- Congress hands out billions to favored causes via pork projects
- They pay for billions in construction projects which are stuffed with wasted money and effort
- They pass laws influenced by lobbyists that are not in the public interest, and either cost the public money or result in higher government spending
- They keep increasing the percentage of people on the government payroll

Government spending is now almost 45% of the entire GDP and still increasing! It's never been higher in the history of the US.

So being against higher taxes while the government has not addressed their spending problem doesn't make me a right winger. I only want accountability.

That's a larger discussion, but note the rich have had enormous financial gains at the expense of the nation including on taxes since Reagan.

There's nothing wrong with balancing that and indeed it's essential we do if we like democracy, which cannot co-exist with oligarchy.

Tell you what, I'll let you have not a cent of new taxes, if you support the estate taxes and reduce the same amount in tax reductions for the bottom 80%.

We still have serious deficit issues to address, but I'd prioritize slowing our move to oligarchy. Will you meet halfway?

 

[Craig234]

The notion that it's basically OK to steal from some folks because they make up such a small percentage of the population is wrong and un-American. You hear socialists like Sanders say things like "we'll take it from the wealthiest 0.3%". The percentage of people that are in that category should have nothing to do with the policy. Using his logic, it's perfectly OK to steal from black people since they only make up 12% of the population. Sanders is the very model of failure.

He's not, you are just posting a criminally dishonest and ignorant version of his point.

You just happen to leave out things like the *enormous* shifts for the rich to skyrocket while no one else does from policies since Reagan.

It's not just that they're the top 0.3%, there's a lot more to the story you don't know. See Zebo's thread today for a few statistics that are relevant.

You're doing the equivalent of defending Bernie Madoff because it's wrong just to take his money 'just because he's rich' and leaving out any of the rest of the story.

Replace 'ran a ponzi scheme' with 'bought our government to pass policies shifting trillions from the rest of the country to a few'. Things are out of balance, a lot.

It cause all kinds of problems from the corruption of our political system to the gutting of our middle class (all their wealth belongs in the hands of few) to a weaker economy.

 

[Craig234]

No, I didn't. Read it again. If you can't understand simple sentences have someone explain them to you. Nothing you quoted suggests "a communist society", not that there's anything wrong with that, but that isn't what I suggested.

And if you don't understand my post, my entire post as you only quoted a portion, you can always ask.

As far as I'm concerned Senator Sanders isn't being noble, or compassionate, but a selfish little prick. What he's proposing is that we, that being the generic we, steal from the super rich in order to reduce the tax burden on the moderately rich and upper middle class. The Senator's proposal doesn't do shit for the poor or lower middle class who don't make enough to pay ferderal taxes, they wouldn't see any benefit, but it would make it possible to lower the tax burden for a certain class of people.

I was simply pointing out that if you're going to steal from certain people in the name of the people you should share with the people. They do want to call it a fair tax, right?

I should learn not to post to ideologues, but I'll ask you, what is your plan to prevent the oligarchy we're on the road to becoming now?

 

[Craig234]

Yes, who needs pesky things like logical justification? You want to impose your will on me and will use any means you can to do so. You are a tyrant. The difference between corporations and the government is simply that no one has to treat with a corporation, but I have no choice but to treat with the government. If I don't like how a corporation works, I simply won't do business with them. If I don't like how the government works and try not to do business with them, they will imprison or kill me. Even if I bought land far outside of any city so that I had no property taxes to pay and had no income, used no public utilities, roads, or services, and lived off my own land, and willed everything to my children who were living there with me doing the same thing, you would still feel justified taking a cut when I died. You are an evil bastard who uses the Constitution as a weapon against logic rather than as a guide to what is logical.

No, you're a clueless bastard who thinks civilization has no cost, and the simplistic ideology to match it.

In your little world, you don't need worker safety laws - workers can just work somewhere else. You don't need drug safety laws, consumers can just buy from another company. You don't need doctor certification, people can just go to another doctor. You don't need FAA regulations, people can just on another airline.

You sound like - you can backpedal if you want to say this is not correct - you have the simplistic Libertarian mentality that simply has no place in the real world.

I'm for freedom for all citizens - political and economic, opportunity, and for more people doing well - a strong middle class - over oligarchy. You're not, whether you know it or not.

 

[NoWhereM]

I should learn not to post to ideologues, but I'll ask you, what is your plan to prevent the oligarchy we're on the road to becoming now?

The only issues I have a problem compromising on are moral ones. I'm not a saint, not even close, but I do have a conscience.

I can't offer a plan to prevent something that has already happened. However, all it would take to end the current oligarchy is the end of the democratic and republican parties. Let me know how we can do that and I'll get right on it. You'll also need to figure out how to keep the parties that replace them from being purchased as well, though.

 

[Jhhnn]

Why give an exemption of 3.5 millon dollars if financial aristocracy is bad? Why vary the estate tax rate as wealth goes up if financial aristocracy is bad? Why write a tax law in a way that exempts certain people and punishes others? Why doesn't everyone own at least two cats? It just doesn't make any sense.

Lameness. $3.5M net worth isn't really rich by modern standards at all, and should satisfy middle class notions of providing for their children.

It's less than 1/1000 of what the top earning hedge fund manager made in 2009, which was $4B....

Wrap your head around the idea that America's wealthiest are rich in ways and amounts that the rest of us can't even comprehend. If a $1B estate paid 55% in taxes, there's still $450M+ left for the heirs... If there were 10 heirs, that's still an average of $45M in free money for each one.

*Free Money*, Get it? Money they didn't earn, never worked for, provided by accident of birth. 20X the total sum earned by an average american working for 50 years.

Guess who's financed the campaign to abolish the "death tax"? People who already have their own free money, and lots of it.

 

[JS80]

Speaking of meaningless crap 🙄 ....

What gives someone the right to transfer assets, the basis of which in many cases has never been taxed at its current value, "tax free" to their heirs?


and LOL @ Pulsar

You can't "...have your cake and eat it, too".

Either your grand parents had a working family farm, or they didn't. Either their heirs (your parents and you) had the plethora of options (under local, state and federal tax provisions) for protecting the property as a farm (or timber land, open space or conservation, preservation and/or scenic easement/property) or, they elected to "cash-out".

You can't have it both ways. Either the heirs wanted to protect the property, or, they chose not to protect the property.

You are not telling us the whole story.




--

lol you think some redneck farmers sitting on a low cost basis gold mine that only materialized into cash wealth when they croaked knew to plan their estate for their death? Puhlease. This type of shit occurs frequently. Some old fart who grew up in the depression era buys his house for $500 in 1940 and it's worth $10 million because Walmart decided to build next to his backyard you think he's going to an estate lawyer for estate planning?

 

[NoWhereM]

Lameness. $3.5M net worth isn't really rich by modern standards at all, and should satisfy middle class notions of providing for their children.

It's less than 1/1000 of what the top earning hedge fund manager made in 2009, which was $4B....

Wrap your head around the idea that America's wealthiest are rich in ways and amounts that the rest of us can't even comprehend. If a $1B estate paid 55% in taxes, there's still $450M+ left for the heirs... If there were 10 heirs, that's still an average of $45M in free money for each one.

*Free Money*, Get it? Money they didn't earn, never worked for, provided by accident of birth. 20X the total sum earned by an average american working for 50 years.

Guess who's financed the campaign to abolish the "death tax"? People who already have their own free money, and lots of it.

So the middle class has the right to support their children in the style they have become accustomed upon their death but the wealthiest don't have that right? Why is that?

I don't stand to inherit much if anything in the future, it doesn't matter if the inheritance tax remains as it is or goes back to what it was I won't pay a dime in tax, but I don't see an inheritance as free money and I don't think there should be an inheritance tax at all.

If we're going to have an inheritance tax exempt an amount equal to five times the current poverty threshold for each heir and set a flat percentage after that. If you're willing to forego 55% of your free money over the exemption great, if not figure out what you are willing to forego and set it at that.

I really don't understand people who are so jealous of what other people have they insist on sharing it while at the same time claiming a devine right to what they already have.

 

[wirelessenabled]

Dividends to shareholders are not tax deductible to corporations. Thus the shouts about double taxation.

You have to remember the most Corporations do not pay tax. They pay out dividends to their stock holders and then they pay their employees, and have to purchase raw supplies and what not. So your only recourse is to tax the stockholders when they sell stock or receive dividends. After that you could also tax all income of the officers of the corporations at a higher rate for their excessive wages. Then you could also tax employees who receive stock options at an even higher rate. However, you may want a two tier tax system for stocks. You dont want to tax the small guys at the same rate as people who own millions or billions in stock. Just think how your retirement may depend on the stock market doing well. Higher taxes means less retirement income.

When you have a higher tax on imports (We call that a tarriff?), then the countries also do the same to our exports. Do you want to start this kind of anti-free-trade war?

 

[Jhhnn]

The part you still don't get, NowhereM, is that the vast resources held by America's wealthiest has little effect on their lifestyles whatsoever. They're beyond the saturation point. Beyond some point or another, money and resources aren't about wealth at all, but about power, power over the rest of us.

I think it's also important not to set the exemption wrt estate taxes too low, because it'll kill middle class aspirations and damage whatever reserves middle class people have.

Inherit several million, have it made for life by the standards of most of America? Fine- because you have no power over me or others. Inherit vast sums, make more money than some small countries w/o lifting a finger, buy and sell politicians as if they were pet cats, finance think tanks and foundations to influence the thinking of the nation and the world? I think that needs to be reserved for people who've earned the money themselves, even if I might disagree with them...

Extreme concentrations of wealth via inheritance lead to oligarchy, whether that be the titled nobility that once ruled europe or the families that run south and central america. Constructive re-allocation of resources ceases, because they have excess resources in the first place. Human society has traditionally had ways other than taxation to correct that when it happens, usually war and revolution. Tear it all down, start over. America is very myopic in that respect, because we're a very young society. If we want to avoid the inevitability of undesirable solutions that cyclical over concentration of wealth has wreaked on other societies throughout history, we need to prevent that concentration in the first place...

 

[NoWhereM]

The part you still don't get, NowhereM, is that the vast resources held by America's wealthiest has little effect on their lifestyles whatsoever. They're beyond the saturation point. Beyond some point or another, money and resources aren't about wealth at all, but about power, power over the rest of us.

I think it's also important not to set the exemption wrt estate taxes too low, because it'll kill middle class aspirations and damage whatever reserves middle class people have.

Inherit several million, have it made for life by the standards of most of America? Fine- because you have no power over me or others. Inherit vast sums, make more money than some small countries w/o lifting a finger, buy and sell politicians as if they were pet cats, finance think tanks and foundations to influence the thinking of the nation and the world? I think that needs to be reserved for people who've earned the money themselves, even if I might disagree with them...

Extreme concentrations of wealth via inheritance lead to oligarchy, whether that be the titled nobility that once ruled europe or the families that run south and central america. Constructive re-allocation of resources ceases, because they have excess resources in the first place. Human society has traditionally had ways other than taxation to correct that when it happens, usually war and revolution. Tear it all down, start over. America is very myopic in that respect, because we're a very young society. If we want to avoid the inevitability of undesirable solutions that cyclical over concentration of wealth has wreaked on other societies throughout history, we need to prevent that concentration in the first place...

Do you believe a majority of legislators exist who have not already been bought and are willing to pass the tax legislation you want?

 

[drebo]

well, estate tax does spread OPPORTUNITY around so you ought to be in favor of it.

No it doesn't. You're so full of bullshit it's not even funny. I can't even snicker at this pathetic excuse for a justification.

 

[drebo]

Lameness. $3.5M net worth isn't really rich by modern standards at all, and should satisfy middle class notions of providing for their children.

It's less than 1/1000 of what the top earning hedge fund manager made in 2009, which was $4B....

Wrap your head around the idea that America's wealthiest are rich in ways and amounts that the rest of us can't even comprehend. If a $1B estate paid 55% in taxes, there's still $450M+ left for the heirs... If there were 10 heirs, that's still an average of $45M in free money for each one.

*Free Money*, Get it? Money they didn't earn, never worked for, provided by accident of birth. 20X the total sum earned by an average american working for 50 years.

Guess who's financed the campaign to abolish the "death tax"? People who already have their own free money, and lots of it.

What are you talking about with your "free money" bullshit? It's not free money, it was earned by someone. It doesn't really matter how they earned it, as long as it was lawful. One way or another, they paid taxes on it already. Why is the government entitled to more than half of it just because the person died?

 

[Red Dawn]

What are you talking about with your "free money" bullshit? It's not free money, it was earned by someone. It doesn't really matter how they earned it, as long as it was lawful. One way or another, they paid taxes on it already. Why is the government entitled to more than half of it just because the person died?

On the other hand those ten heirs receiving 45 million dollars each have a leg up when it comes to earning their own wealth as wealth breeds wealth for those who work hard to to mention they are still firmly entrenched in the Ruling Class.

 

[Double Trouble]

On the other hand those ten heirs receiving 45 million dollars each have a leg up when it comes to earning their own wealth as wealth breeds wealth for those who work hard to to mention they are still firmly entrenched in the Ruling Class.

As a parent, isn't that what you strive for? To work hard to make sure your kids have a better life and have all the opportunities in the world? I know I work my ass off so that I can provide for my kids, for their education etc so that they have a shot at success in life.

One could make the same argument about my kids having an unfair advantage in life over the kids of a single mother who doesn't have the means to give them the advantages. Since I'm the one earning the money, I should get to decide who gets it when I die. If I want to give it to a charity, to a dog, or just have it stacked in a pile and burned, it should be my choice.

I don't have millions, so the death tax would not matter to me personally. I'm offended by the fundamental notion that it would be OK to steal more from one group of people because they accumulated wealth during their lifetime. That money has already been taxed.

 

[heyheybooboo]

Cliff Notes:

1) The Cons believe that the assets of an estate should pass tax free even when the accelerated basis of certain real and personal properties has never been taxed (Welfare for the Wealthy?);

2) An exemption of $3.5 million (which covers 99.7% of all estates) is not enough; and

3) 18 Families with a combined net worth of $185.5 billion have financed and coordinated a 10-year effort to repeal the estate tax in an effort to evade $71.6 billion in taxes.




--

 

[Red Dawn]

As a parent, isn't that what you strive for? To work hard to make sure your kids have a better life and have all the opportunities in the world? I know I work my ass off so that I can provide for my kids, for their education etc so that they have a shot at success in life.

One could make the same argument about my kids having an unfair advantage in life over the kids of a single mother who doesn't have the means to give them the advantages. Since I'm the one earning the money, I should get to decide who gets it when I die. If I want to give it to a charity, to a dog, or just have it stacked in a pile and burned, it should be my choice.

I don't have millions, so the death tax would not matter to me personally. I'm offended by the fundamental notion that it would be OK to steal more from one group of people because they accumulated wealth during their lifetime. That money has already been taxed.

You seeewhere you argument falls apart is that they achieved what you seek to achieve for your children. Their children, grand children and more than likely their great grand children will be able to reap the benefits of their hard work and enjoy the advantages so they to can be successful even with the estate tax. Once you get into that type of money it's really only keeping score, their life isn't going to be any different whether they have a 100 million or 45 million. If the Government were to take it all or most of it I would feel as you do but they don't even come close to doing that and those heirs aren't going to have to face any hardship what so ever because of it. They'll never want for money.

 

[ebaycj]

I just gave you the full story. The farm was over 800 acres, and my grandparents died in 2005 and 2006, respectively. In 2003 and 2004, golf courses were built on 2 sides of the property.

You take a wild guess what the government decided it was worth.

Of course, they tried to piecemeal it off to individual buyers, but given the timing you can imagine how well that went. Their only option in the end was to sell the remaining portion to a big buyer (corporate), who knew the situation they were in and leveraged it against them telling them that it was either all or nothing and offering them an obscenely low amount of money. He had already tried screwing them over once by making an offer with a small deposit of $40k, then stringing them along for the maximum allowed time then forfeiting the offer and lowering it drastically - essentially trying to run them out of time because he knew their financial situation.

It sounds like the real story is that their estate lawyer didn't know about the farm exemptions.

 

[ebaycj]

Because it's their damn property and they can do whatever the hell they want with it. What gives you the right to tax it or tell them otherwise?

Would you prefer that your children are taxed on their inheritance as if it were income, after you died? Because it is income to them. The estate tax should really be looked at as a relief to your children from having to pay full income tax on the whole estate.

 

[PokerGuy]

Cliff Notes:

1) The Cons believe that the assets of an estate should pass tax free even when the accelerated basis of certain real and personal properties has never been taxed (Welfare for the Wealthy?);

The money has already been taxed. There is no such thing as tax free. If there are tax-deferred assets included in an estate, they still get taxed when the recipient of the estate actually tries to get them. Tax free is a bunch of crap. What the dems want to do is tax everything multiple times.

2) An exemption of $3.5 million (which covers 99.7% of all estates) is not enough; and

Why is that relevant? What if it was 90%? 80%? 70%? 99.999%? It makes no difference. Either it is fair to double tax something and take it from the people who earned it, or it is not.

3) 18 Families with a combined net worth of $185.5 billion have financed and coordinated a 10-year effort to repeal the estate tax in an effort to evade $71.6 billion in taxes.

Evade? That's not evading anything: every group tries to get it's tax burden lowered, those folks are no different. This is class warfare and class envy at it's worst.

 

[ebaycj]

Yes, who needs pesky things like logical justification? You want to impose your will on me and will use any means you can to do so. You are a tyrant. The difference between corporations and the government is simply that no one has to treat with a corporation, but I have no choice but to treat with the government. If I don't like how a corporation works, I simply won't do business with them. If I don't like how the government works and try not to do business with them, they will imprison or kill me. Even if I bought land far outside of any city so that I had no property taxes to pay and had no income, used no public utilities, roads, or services, and lived off my own land, and willed everything to my children who were living there with me doing the same thing, you would still feel justified taking a cut when I died. You are an evil bastard who uses the Constitution as a weapon against logic rather than as a guide to what is logical.

You also have the ability to vote (and voice your opinions to influence others' votes) to change government as you see fit, if you don't like it.

Where is this ability for corporations?

 

[Red Dawn]

This is class warfare and class envy at it's worst.

Is it ? How about an attempt to keep the Ruling Class from becoming even more powerful than they already are (not that it is actually effective)? If it was really class warfare they'd take it all.

 

[Genx87]

Cliff Notes:

1) The Cons believe that the assets of an estate should pass tax free even when the accelerated basis of certain real and personal properties has never been taxed (Welfare for the Wealthy?);

2) An exemption of $3.5 million (which covers 99.7% of all estates) is not enough; and

3) 18 Families with a combined net worth of $185.5 billion have financed and coordinated a 10-year effort to repeal the estate tax in an effort to evade $71.6 billion in taxes.




--

Why pay a tax on an asset if it hasnt been sold? You are asking them to pay a transfer fee without realizing any monetary in hand appreciation. That is where I think this can get really fugly. Especially for small business and farmers. How is it morally justified to ask a small business to pay hundreds of thousands in taxes they cant afford because the owner died? In the process possibly folding and laying people off? Or how about family owned farms? How can a farm afford those taxes?

I have said this several times. This tax is a big old red herring for both sides. But I tend to side with people who want to abolish it. The idea assets should be taxed simply for changing hands within a family is assinine to me. Money, liquid assets are a different story. Those are something the family members can go out and buy something with, and I would tax them at personal income rates. But farms, a business, a house? I cant walk into BB and get a TV with those. And I would say tax them at the regular capital gains rate on the appreciation from when the original owners took posession when they are finally sold.